Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

km991148

Rodin wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but not all opinions are equal.

No disagreement from me.

Gervais08

Gruffalux wrote: »

This might interest you. You would have to read the whole thing.
https://quillette.com/2020/11/07/gender-activists-are-trying-to-cancel-my-book-why-is-silicon-valley-helping-them/

Abigail Shrier seems like a regular nice lady.
Since the attempts to remove her POV outlined in this article in addition Target (which is the 8th largest retailer in USA ) removed her book from its sales list. Due to an outcry it was reinstated.
Also a very progressive professor Grace Lavery, a professor of English at the University of California, Berkeley, went further, tweeting: “I DO encourage followers to steal Abigail Shrier’s book and burn it on a pyre.”

Chase Strangio of ACLU said it was the hill they would die on to have the book banned.

The book is a piece by an investigative journalist wondering about the absolutely massive increase in teenage girls irreversibly damaging themselves with hormonal drugs and surgery.
Surely an enquiry like that is allowed to exist? And why is the response from the "left" that it must be banned, burned and Shrier must be removed from all modern media platforms?

Note one modern platform - Go Fund Me - presently has 35000 go fund me campaigns for young girls and young women to fund their mastectomies. If it had 35000 campaigns for young boys and men to have phallectomies would there be a reaction? I think so.

The ACLU - a cautionary tale (like Amnesty under that tool O’Gorman) in how to operate under the Gerald Ratner school of PR.

Annasopra

Gervais08 wrote: »

You don’t know how many so you can’t say that when I believe it’s the majority then I’m wrong.

Whats the basis for your beliefs?

There are 422 (as of 2018) in the country with GR certs. I know 7 of them. All 7 went through different medical processes and know many others who did too. Thats 100% of the trans people I know personally.

Gervais08

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately we a tiny cohort who have being held up as completely untouchable and beyond any reproach ,
And if you don't subscribe to their abusive ideology your then deemed a legitimate target to be shamed , tarnished and sacked from your employment ,
It's disgusting that it's allowed to happen and will continue to do so .

It's nothing to do with Equal rights no one group should have separate rights above others just because they self identify as something and it can be anything , banning books , videos , discussions , sacking people for not believing someone else ideology it's wrong and it's a violation of rights

I believe in God. I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, I accept many do and many do not.

I also believe in ghosts, extraterrestrial life in some form and the other worlds theory and parallel universes. Again, some agree with me and likely more do not.

Grand with that.

However, believe that a man will always be biologically, genetically and chromosomally a man - and you will have a metaphorical stake waiting for you to be burned upon.

I don’t get why some beliefs are ironclad when all they are is belief.

Annasopra

Gervais08 wrote: »

It would, but my feeling is the vast majority do not seek counseling or similar because unlike a few years ago where the requirements for treatment or surgery was to live as the desired gender for up to three years, that has gone - as has the surgery (I understand somewhere around 90%+ do not have any physical or pharmacological change).

Now it’s just “i identity as a woman” - and that’s it.

It’s open to so much abuse and this does need yo be openly discussed.

Sorry no

You are mixing up requirements for surgery and requirements for legal recognition.

Gruffalux

km991148 wrote: »

I'm not denying you have a point here. And to comment on this specific point (about the author), I would need to read more than this article (which on the face of it is unlikely to be unbiased, because the author has something to sell..)

Regarding go fund me.. this might be the first time that I have seen something resembling a trend on this thread and could be explored further all right.
Comparing to the opposite (young boys doing the opposite) isn't really a like for like comparison due to all sorts if other social factors.
Don't see this as an attack on your post, just trying to view this objectively. I appreciate the info and time you took to post (unlike other posters posts which tell people to be an adult etc).

Some things need one to get off the fence. This is my POV as to why I post on it. Moral relativism is not an option for me personally on this issue. (Or most others to be honest).

It could not possibly be the first time on this thread that you have seen a trend unless numbers afflicted must reach into 10s of 1000s to touch you. But maybe so. Numbers affect people differently. If 10 people were shot in Dublin today we would be horrified whereas as my husband said they rounded the numbers in Rwanda up to the nearest million and we could barely give a fcuk.

What about the 100 children already mentioned sent from Ireland to Tavistock? What about the 1 female social worker with her eyelids almost clawed off? What about the half of the earths population that can now be referred to in govt funded health publications as people with a cervix?

Why does 35000 girls wanting funding to have their breasts cut off suddenly get through? It is interesting.
But I suppose everyone has their peak moment when they say "hang on whats going on here", and I should accept others take time to go there.

Gervais08

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sorry no

You are mixing up requirements for surgery and requirements for legal recognition.

No I’m not and I will thank you not to put your spin on my opinion, thank you.

Gervais08

Gruffalux wrote: »

Some things need one to get off the fence. This is my POV as to why I post on it. Moral relativism is not an option for me personally on this issue. (Or most others to be honest).

It could not possibly be the first time on this thread that you have seen a trend unless numbers afflicted must reach into 10s of 1000s to touch you. But maybe so. Numbers affect people differently. If 10 people were shot in Dublin today we would be horrified whereas as my husband said they rounded the numbers in Rwanda up to the nearest million and we could barely give a fcuk.

What about the 100 children already mentioned sent from Ireland to Tavistock? What about the 1 female social worker with her eyelids almost clawed off? What about the half of the earths population that can now be referred to in govt funded health publications as people with a cervix?

Why does 35000 girls wanting funding to have their breasts cut off suddenly get through? It is interesting.
But I suppose everyone has their peak moment when they say "hang on whats going on here", and I should accept others take time to go there.

A mate’s mother was not long ago going through cancer treatment ( ok so far thank God) but there was a young boy in the waiting room. She asked why he was there and it was a girl waiting for a consultation about having her breasts removed.

She is in a room full of cancer patients and unashamedly using our money to mutilate herself. Just wrong.

km991148

Gervais08 wrote: »

I believe in God. I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, I accept many do and many do not.

I also believe in ghosts, extraterrestrial life in some form and the other worlds theory and parallel universes. Again, some agree with me and likely more do not.

Grand with that.

However, believe that a man will always be biologically, genetically and chromosomally a man - and you will have a metaphorical stake waiting for you to be burned upon.

I don’t get why some beliefs are ironclad when all they are is belief.

We are more connected to each other than ever before. This means learning more about other peoples beliefs and cultures etc etc and having to accept that there are people that hold a different view.

You referenced God (And I don't want to drag the conversation down that rabbit hole) - but you get that there a lot of people who not only don't believe but would also feel strongly about the influence the church has on our society (reasonable to argue that its also disproportionate etc, but again not the point).

Do you want these people burned at the metaphorical stake (You already accept there are differences in opinion)?
For the majority of people there is no stake waiting for you to be burned on.


I think accepting that there are different opinions (and not assuming everyone with a different opinion want to attack you) is one thing and has to be done at this point, because there are other posters raising what would seem to be far more serious issues that don't get discussed fully.

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

Some things need one to get off the fence. This is my POV as to why I post on it. Moral relativism is not an option for me personally on this issue. (Or most others to be honest).

It could not possibly be the first time on this thread that you have seen a trend unless numbers afflicted must reach into 10s of 1000s to touch you. But maybe so. Numbers affect people differently. If 10 people were shot in Dublin today we would be horrified whereas as my husband said they rounded the numbers in Rwanda up to the nearest million and we could barely give a fcuk.

What about the 100 children already mentioned sent from Ireland to Tavistock? What about the 1 female social worker with her eyelids almost clawed off? What about the half of the earths population that can now be referred to in govt funded health publications as people with a cervix?

Why does 35000 girls wanting funding to have their breasts cut off suddenly get through? It is interesting.
But I suppose everyone has their peak moment when they say "hang on whats going on here", and I should accept others take time to go there.

Don't put words in my mouth. I am trying to understand where you are coming from. I am not necessarily agreeing with it.

Your example regarding people being shot - that's entirely irrelevant.

km991148

Gervais08 wrote: »

A mate’s mother was not long ago going through cancer treatment ( ok so far thank God) but there was a young boy in the waiting room. She asked why he was there and it was a girl waiting for a consultation about having her breasts removed.

She is in a room full of cancer patients and unashamedly using our money to mutilate herself. Just wrong.

You are unashamedly using a story about cancer patients to make your point (and I am not even sure what that point is tbh - something to do with public money? Do you know it was public money? We all have a laundry list of things we wish the state doesn't pay for, but tough sh!t - either you live in a society or you go self isolate on an island somewhere..)

Gruffalux

Next thing there will be a post about civilised debating and being nice. All of the real issues raised in this thread are completely skirted past as if never posted and the silly incidental things are honed in on and magnified in order to drag the discussion into pages of absurdity.

Gervais08

Gruffalux wrote: »

Next thing there will be a post about civilised debating and being nice. All of the real issues raised in this thread are completely skirted past as if never posted and the silly incidental things are honed in on and magnified in order to drag the discussion into pages of absurdity.

Almost like there’s a goal to stifle the debate!

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

Next thing there will be a post about civilised debating and being nice. All of the real issues raised in this thread are completely skirted past as if never posted and the silly incidental things are honed in on and magnified in order to drag the discussion into pages of absurdity.

I agree with you. There are serious points being missed by nonsense. I would even go as far to say that I agree on what those serious point are (it's not the anecdote about the hospital waiting room above).

km991148

Gervais08 wrote: »

Almost like there’s a goal to stifle the debate!

No that sounds like a conspiracy theory. The 'debate' for some people is mainly attacking people that don't agree with you. If you read back I see some posters that show genuine attempts to engage, and others that simply don't.

Gruffalux

km991148 wrote: »

I agree with you. There are serious points being missed by nonsense. I would even go as far to say that I agree on what those serious point are (it's not the anecdote about the hospital waiting room above).

So what are your thoughts on 35000 girls presently using gofundme for mastectomies? You said this " could be explored further" and then you said "I am not necessarily agreeing with it (where I am coming from)".
Fine. So what is your actual opinion on that specific example of a trend. Just that. Hone in. Just an actual statement of opinion on that piece of information.

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

So what are your thoughts on 35000 girls presently using gofundme for mastectomies? You said this " could be explored further" and then you said "I am not necessarily agreeing with it (where I am coming from)".
Fine. So what is your actual opinion on that specific example of a trend. Just that. Hone in. Just an actual statement of opinion on that piece of information.

I think if there are a lot of girls being persuaded into something that isn't necessary then that is something pretty serious.
I said that number may indicate that it's something to be explored further (I haven't done this in the last 18 minutes).

You would need to do some digging yourself. Is this a global number? How many pages are Go Fund Me hosting in total? How many of these campaigns are likely to succeed in their intentions (I don't mean funding goals, but are serious bids).
How many of the successful campaigns are a result of having explored all other options? Or had all the appropriate consultations/ therapy/ diagnosis required?

In other words, I am looking for some qualitative research behind those numbers - I can hardly give an opinion on something without knowing the complete picture other than to say if there is something in what you say, its obviously no good if people are being 'forced' down a path they might not be entirely comfortable with (and there have been people, unfortunately who have had this situation).

On the flip side you mentioned people transitioning in the opposite direction. Is that likely at that age? Is there more stigma associated with it and therefore m-f are more likely to transition at a later stage in life. Would m-f be as comfortable doing this on a public platform such as Go Fund Me? Do men have more resources available to them and therefore don't need to raise money like this? Are the m-f transitions cheaper?

km991148

I'm curious - where did you get the number from (35, 000)?

Genuine question, not coming from a place of doubting you etc but I would like to see if I can do some qualitative analysis. Even if you can link to someone else quoting that number to see how they got to it.

Gruffalux

km991148 wrote: »

I think if there are a lot of girls being persuaded into something that isn't necessary then that is something pretty serious.
I said that number may indicate that it's something to be explored further (I haven't done this in the last 18 minutes).

You would need to do some digging yourself. Is this a global number? How many pages are Go Fund Me hosting in total? How many of these campaigns are likely to succeed in their intentions (I don't mean funding goals, but are serious bids).
How many of the successful campaigns are a result of having explored all other options? Or had all the appropriate consultations/ therapy/ diagnosis required?

In other words, I am looking for some qualitative research behind those numbers - I can hardly give an opinion on something without knowing the complete picture other than to say if there is something in what you say, its obviously no good if people are being 'forced' down a path they might not be entirely comfortable with (and there have been people, unfortunately who have had this situation).

On the flip side you mentioned people transitioning in the opposite direction. Is that likely at that age? Is there more stigma associated with it and therefore m-f are more likely to transition at a later stage in life. Would m-f be as comfortable doing this on a public platform such as Go Fund Me? Do men have more resources available to them and therefore don't need to raise money like this? Are the m-f transitions cheaper?

A lot of your questions here have been already addressed in this thread and others can be easily answered by your own research or by contemplation. If you have not had the time to contemplate then perhaps take it before making declarations, as it is an important topic.

Personally I have a very low tolerance of acceptable collateral damage in any area. Zero would be my goal for damage to people on any subject but if that is not possible then the lowest number after that. The 1 lady getting her eyelids almost clawed off was enough for me to know it is dangerous for self ID to enable psychiatrically-disturbed young males be assigned solely female carers. 1. That is all it took.

I had a cursory glance at the gofundmes the first day I saw it, and most had achieved their goal funding. They were largely American based girls from the ones I saw. Is this important? In the USA between 2015 and 2017 there was a 328% increase in mastectomies for girls who identify as boys. Johanna Olson Kennnedy, the Medical Director of The Center for Transyouth Health and Development at Children's Hospital in Los Angeles, the largest transgender youth clinic in the US, publicly said at a conference lecture a couple of years ago that it is not a problem to remove girls breasts as they can have them put back on later if they change their mind.

But the questions you asked can be answered much more simply than a forensic and pointless analysis of gofundme. Already posted was an article which shows Sweden has halted experimental treatment of trans youth almost specifically due to the huge increase in girls claiming the need for medicine and surgery to deal with dysphoria. The UK has launched government enquiries due to the increase. The BBC has made documentaries looking into the practise of affirmation at GIDS UK. Shrier's book is based on Lisa Littman's research on the huge increases in girls possibly fueled by social contagion. There was a school in the UK, Brighton, 2018 - where 76 out of 1600 pupils claimed to be transgender or gender fluid. That is 4.75% of students. This is not normal. There is no acceptable level of irreversible damage.

By the way re surgery and cheaper for guys etc only 5% of transwomen have any surgery.

Gruffalux

km991148 wrote: »

I'm curious - where did you get the number from (35, 000)?

Genuine question, not coming from a place of doubting you etc but I would like to see if I can do some qualitative analysis. Even if you can link to someone else quoting that number to see how they got to it.

You did not read the article by Shrier that I linked then.
and here ''results for top surgery'' .. https://www.gofundme.com/mvc.php?route=homepage_norma%2Fsearch&term=top%20surgery&fbclid=IwAR1maGEa5xNT4fw-oUg-xr2aF10WjYNKbOawderSk810xIQyF2YO2U5J1eg

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

A lot of your questions here have been already addressed in this thread and others can be easily answered by your own research or by contemplation. If you have not had the time to contemplate then perhaps take it before making declarations, as it is an important topic.

I admitted I didn't know enough and you pestered me for an opinion, and now you are calling me out for not having time to research..

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

Personally I have a very low tolerance of acceptable collateral damage in any area. Zero would be my goal for damage to people on any subject but if that is not possible then the lowest number after that. The 1 lady getting her eyelids almost clawed off was enough for me to know it is dangerous for self ID to enable psychiatrically-disturbed young males be assigned solely female carers. 1. That is all it took.

Unfortunately in all walks of life there are risks and dangers. You say acceptable collateral damage like everyone is trying to tease out a number and everyone is happy with it (and on one specific metric - not taking into account the full picture). I think minimising harm (and especially harm that was put onto others) is everyones goal. And I think everyone would want a zero tolerance approach.

Gatling

Gervais08 wrote: »

Almost like there’s a goal to stifle the debate!

Remember you could be forced to get a GRC even if you didn't want one ,you had to have a medical diagnosis ,then you don't ,
There is nothing to see here ,only post if your trans or gay

None of which makes any sense , post evidence to back up your claim no that's not good enough go find more ,oh it's all anti trans propaganda , very similarly Applied as russophobia (invade , occupy , disappear people ,kill journalists but it's only russophobia nothing to see here)
Along with a Healthy dose of misinformation to tarnish anyone not in agreement ,

So far all I've seen is antidotal claims support for it

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

I had a cursory glance at the gofundmes the first day I saw it, and most had achieved their goal funding. They were largely American based girls from the ones I saw. Is this important? In the USA between 2015 and 2017 there was a 328% increase in mastectomies for girls who identify as boys. Johanna Olson Kennnedy, the Medical Director of The Center for Transyouth Health and Development at Children's Hospital in Los Angeles, the largest transgender youth clinic in the US, publicly said at a conference lecture a couple of years ago that it is not a problem to remove girls breasts as they can have them put back on later if they change their mind.

But the questions you asked can be answered much more simply than a forensic and pointless analysis of gofundme. Already posted was an article which shows Sweden has halted experimental treatment of trans youth almost specifically due to the huge increase in girls claiming the need for medicine and surgery to deal with dysphoria. The UK has launched government enquiries due to the increase. The BBC has made documentaries looking into the practise of affirmation at GIDS UK. Shrier's book is based on Lisa Littman's research on the huge increases in girls possibly fueled by social contagion. There was a school in the UK, Brighton, 2018 - where 76 out of 1600 pupils claimed to be transgender or gender fluid. That is 4.75% of students. This is not normal. There is no acceptable level of irreversible damage.

So mistakes are being made, and the powers that be are doing what they can to prevent further harm.

Regarding the importance of the numbers - its important that they are accurate. Right now there are 13k active campaigns for mastectomies* (Based on a keyword search, not qualitative). I don't think many of them are for gender issues. I had no idea if the 35k was active, completed, over the last 10 years, an on the spot number.. If there is an issue - surely its important to understand exactly how serious it is?


*EDIT - I see a different search term was used - apologies.

Gervais08

km991148 wrote: »

Unfortunately in all walks of life there are risks and dangers. You say acceptable collateral damage like everyone is trying to tease out a number and everyone is happy with it (and on one specific metric - not taking into account the full picture). I think minimising harm (and especially harm that was put onto others) is everyones goal. And I think everyone would want a zero tolerance approach.

Where do you stand on professionals losing jobs for stating the immutable incontrovertible fact that biological sex is real and unchangeable???

km991148

Gervais08 wrote: »

Where do you stand on professionals losing jobs for stating the immutable incontrovertible fact that biological sex is real and unchangeable???

You make an assertion of something and paint a picture through your own lens. Has someone been fired for stating that? In that exact term as you put it?

km991148

Gatling wrote: »

Remember you could be forced to get a GRC even if you didn't want one ,you had to have a medical diagnosis ,then you don't ,
There is nothing to see here ,only post if your trans or gay

None of which makes any sense , post evidence to back up your claim no that's not good enough go find more ,oh it's all anti trans propaganda , very similarly Applied as russophobia (invade , occupy , disappear people ,kill journalists but it's only russophobia nothing to see here)
Along with a Healthy dose of misinformation to tarnish anyone not in agreement ,

So far all I've seen is antidotal claims support for it

I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say here?

Gruffalux

km991148 wrote: »

I admitted I didn't know enough and you pestered me for an opinion, and now you are calling me out for not having time to research..

No hang on. You entered this debate straight off saying ''usual faces, usual 'outrage' '' and have persistently tried to deflect, pull towards absurdity and minimise throughout the thread. If you had not done so, I would not have any reason to ask you for an actual opinion on the subject matter.

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

No hang on. You entered this debate straight off saying ''usual faces, usual 'outrage' '' and have persistently tried to deflect, pull towards absurdity and minimise throughout the thread. If you had not done so, I would not have any reason to ask you for an actual opinion on the subject matter.

Easy now - That was discussed days ago - I apologised and since then there has been a lot of discussion. What has been absurd (I can point to many examples)? What have I deflected on? I have also asked many valid questions, but since they don't fit in they tend to get ignored.

I don't have an agenda here, I am curious about the topic and how Gender Identity is actually seen in modern Ireland. I came in with a bit of an outrageous comment (again, apologised for, remember?) - but I am certainly getting a picture now.

Annasopra

Gervais08 wrote: »

A mate’s mother was not long ago going through cancer treatment ( ok so far thank God) but there was a young boy in the waiting room. She asked why he was there and it was a girl waiting for a consultation about having her breasts removed.

She is in a room full of cancer patients and unashamedly using our money to mutilate herself. Just wrong.

Yeah - says it all. Shame and Mutilation.