Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

km991148

Gervais08 wrote: »

Not if you want to keep your job, no.

Again. Misinterpretation.

Not if you want to publicly abuse individuals while representing the company and keep your job.

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Maybe you do. But going online to express or condemn their right

They have a right to say they are a donkey yes .

Does anyone have to believe or agree they are a donkey no .

This is rights


Burning book and removing people who don't agree with you is akin to 1939 Germany

Gruffalux

km991148 wrote: »

I honestly think this thread has run its natural course. Any point that is being made is always going to come back to arguments on these terms.
I came here to learn about the thread topic. I learned a whole lot about something else.

It's been interesting to say the least

Oh do you now? Why am I not surprised.
I would have thought that it is not up to any individual contributor to decide such. But if you feel you have said all there is to say for you, thought as much or as little as you are inc lined about the subject, and learned all you have to learn on the issues then you are individually not compelled to return to the discission.

Personally I find it is a topic that throws up anomalies and practical incoherencies almost every single day. From crimes being incorrectly recorded in the media. To authors being threatened with book burnings. To attacks on social workets. To odd entanglements of language in public literature. Etc etc So if you don't mind I appreciate a thread remaining where people can discuss gender identity.

suicide_circus

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Just because you have a belief does not automatically entitle you to express it .... or to interfere with someone else's belief just because you don't agree with it.

Except of course if my belief was that I am a woman. In which case i would have an absolute right to express it and everyone I met would be compelled to affirm this believe even with my beard and my meat and two veg.

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

So if you don't mind I appreciate a thread remaining where people can discuss gender identity.

Have at it - but I don't really see that happening here.

It feels like a siege mentality - if you don't agree with something then its attack.

Gruffalux wrote: »

I would have thought that it is not up to any individual contributor to decide such.

Its obviously not. More an appeal/highlighting that we should try and discuss, not shove opining at each other. Maybe not my place to say it but there you go.

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

Personally I find it is a topic that throws up anomalies and practical incoherencies almost every single day. From crimes being incorrectly recorded in the media. To authors being threatened with book burnings. To attacks on social workets. To odd entanglements of language in public literature. Etc etc So if you don't mind I appreciate a thread remaining where people can discuss gender identity.

So again - I don't see any solutions being offered to these problems. Very little attempts to understand or try to address any of this. Or the consequences of what has happened to date.

IAMAMORON

suicide_circus wrote: »

Except of course if my belief was that I am a woman. In which case i would have an absolute right to express it and everyone I met would be compelled to affirm this believe even with my beard and my meat and two veg.

Well yes , you are getting to the crux of it now.

It is no one else's business how you want to carry on your own existence.

But be polite about it, especially if you wearing a beard and a dress, it does not look very feminine and might attract attention from piss takers, be prepared for that .

But there are plenty of women out there who retain their penis and testicles because they are either not comfortable with the surgery or would like to continue having orgasms. That might not suit people who don't agree with it, but it is a fact of life.

Gruffalux

km991148 wrote: »

So again - I don't see any solutions being offered to these problems. Very little attempts to understand or try to address any of this. Or the consequences of what has happened to date.

Speak for yourself not others.

IAMAMORON

Gatling wrote: »

They have a right to say they are a donkey yes .

Does anyone have to believe or agree they are a donkey no .

This is rights


Burning book and removing people who don't agree with you is akin to 1939 Germany

Yes it is your human right to not believe or accept something, absolutely.

But it is not your right to openly condemn it, or ridicule it based on your belief, in particular when it interferes with their existence and their rights.

It is called live and let live, I am sure you are aware of the concept.

Gatling

km991148 wrote: »

It feels like a siege mentality - if you don't agree with something then its attack.

This is the exact M/O we've been discussing

km991148

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Well yes , you are getting to the crux of it now.

It is no one else's business how you want to carry on your own existence.

But be polite about it, especially if you wearing a beard and a dress, it does not look very feminine and might attract attention from piss takers, be prepared for that .

But there are plenty of women out there who retain their penis and testicles because they are either not comfortable with the surgery or would like to continue having orgasms. That might not suit people who don't agree with it, but it is a fact of life.

And again, we venture into absurdity. Donkeys and going completely mixed (beard + dress combo) - I am sure there are people in the world that do both. Probably even someone who identifies as a donkey with a beard and a dress..
But its not really helping the conversation now, is it? Its not really getting to any of the serious issues that people claim they are so keen to discuss.

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Yes it is your human right to not believe or accept something, absolutely.

But if you don't your attacked and loose your job

So much for the right to accept it ,or not to believe

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

Speak for yourself not others.

Whats your solution to these prison cases then? I mean probably get rid of Self ID - is that it?
What about the impact that may have?
What else can be done to ensure the safety of prisoners? There are probably more useful solutions that would tackle all sexual assault in prisons (that seems to be conveniently glossed over).

I seem to have missed all of that in amongst arguments about "A man is a man" mantra.

IAMAMORON

km991148 wrote: »

And again, we venture into absurdity. Donkeys and going completely mixed (beard + dress combo) - I am sure there are people in the world that do both. Probably even someone who identifies as a donkey with a beard and a dress..
But its not really helping the conversation now, is it? Its not really getting to any of the serious issues that people claim they are so keen to discuss.

Apologies for being overly crude, it was not my intention. I was trying to emphasise that every human has the right to their own identity and how they carry it.

Gruffalux

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Well yes , you are getting to the crux of it now.

It is no one else's business how you want to carry on your own existence.

But be polite about it, especially if you wearing a beard and a dress, it does not look very feminine and might attract attention from piss takers, be prepared for that .

But there are plenty of women out there who retain their penis and testicles because they are either not comfortable with the surgery or would like to continue having orgasms. That might not suit people who don't agree with it, but it is a fact of life.

You present as such an ally and yet break all the rules. Why should anyine have to be polite and look feminine if they want to avoid the piss being taken of them or present as a woman. Do women have to be feminine? Women get hairy faces too you know. Cysts on the ovaries or other things can cause it. Indeed I sometimes joke that as a woman I have the joy to look forward to of exchanging my monthly bloodletting in older age for a shagging moustache!

km991148

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Apologies for being overly crude, it was not my intention. I was trying to emphasise that every human has the right to their own identity and how they carry it.

No sorry - I quoted your post as it responded to the one before about the dress/beard/"Meat and two veg" combo.


My point simply is this - people are pulling all sorts of examples into the mix and it doesn't really help.

There probably is someone going about with full beard and dress, but I would say they are definitely in the minority.

Gruffalux

km991148 wrote: »

Whats your solution to these prison cases then? I mean probably get rid of Self ID - is that it?
What about the impact that may have?
What else can be done to ensure the safety of prisoners? There are probably more useful solutions that would tackle all sexual assault in prisons (that seems to be conveniently glossed over).

I seem to have missed all of that in amongst arguments about "A man is a man" mantra.

I have always said equal rights, care, protection and third spaces will protect everyone. I also say a transwoman is a transwoman - and fair fcuks to them - because factual reality should not be overthrown by ideology no matter how kindly intentioned.

IAMAMORON

Gatling wrote: »

But if you don't your attacked and loose your job

So much for the right to accept it not to believe

Now you are just being a bit cute in fairness.

Debate it or don't.

But deconstructing everyone's sentences with comebacks is not a debate and gets tedious.

No one is losing their job for not being a bigot and going online and expressing their disapproval of transsexuals.

Try it sometime, it might save your job:)

suicide_circus

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Well yes , you are getting to the crux of it now.

It is no one else's business how you want to carry on your own existence.

But be polite about it, especially if you wearing a beard and a dress, it does not look very feminine and might attract attention from piss takers, be prepared for that .

But there are plenty of women out there who retain their penis and testicles because they are either not comfortable with the surgery or would like to continue having orgasms. That might not suit people who don't agree with it, but it is a fact of life.

I can't force myself to believe impossible things. Someone with xy chromosomes and a penis is a male. This is 4 billion years of biology talking and I wont presume to contradict that. I don't believe gender is a thing like a spirit or a soul floating around independent of biological sex. I will continue to be courteous to trans people and I feel bad for the mental anguish their condition makes them suffer.

When a child does a crappy crayon doodle, it is praised and stuck up on the fridge. Everyone knows the doodle is crap but we lie in order to make the child feel good. If this pattern of lying is continued giving the child a false sense of their ability, it is ultimately the child who will suffer because one day reality will strike.

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Now you are just being a bit cute in fairness.

No again and you even Stated it ,

You have a right to accept something and the right to say no you don't believe .

It's that simple .

Is anyone calling for trans people to lose their jobs because they don't agree or believe another persons opinion ,No
Are trans activists trying and in case succeed in getting someone sacked for not agreeing with them -Yes

Seems a very one way street

Annasopra

Gruffalux wrote: »

I have always said equal rights, care, protection and third spaces will protect everyone. I also say a transwoman is a transwoman - and fair fcuks to them - because factual reality should not be overthrown by ideology no matter how kindly intentioned.

I'm not seeing all this agreement over equal rights, care and protection around here though when referrring to trans people should be shamed, trans people mutilating themselves and deviants. Theres this weird untrue narrative in this thread that the only insults in it are cis and terf and that the thread has been really respectful about trans people.

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

I can't force myself to believe impossible things. Someone with xy chromosomes and a penis is a male. This is 4 billion years of biology talking and I wont presume to contradict that. I don't believe gender is a thing like a spirit or a soul floating around independent of biological sex. I will continue to be courteous to trans people and I feel bad for the mental anguish their condition makes them suffer.

When a child does a crappy crayon doodle, it is praised and stuck up on the fridge. Everyone knows the doodle is crap but we lie in order to make the child feel good. If this pattern of lying is continued giving the child a false sense of their ability, it is ultimately the child who will suffer because one day reality will strike.

Give over!! Those drawings are real! I have some framed. After all it is the only time in a whole lifetime of loving them that they will unashamedly scrawl in big crayon marks " I realy realy REaly Love you Mamy, you are the best of all."

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm not seeing all this agreement over equal rights, care and protection around here though when referrring to trans people should be shamed, trans people mutilating themselves and deviants. Theres this weird untrue narrative in this thread that the only insults in it are cis and terf and that the thread has been really respectful about trans people.

No it has not and it wouldn't be the first that various claims about whats in these threads has been made and Proven completely untrue .

IAMAMORON

Gruffalux wrote: »

You present as such an ally and yet break all the rules. Why should anyine have to be polite and look feminine if they want to avoid the piss being taken of them or present as a woman. Do women have to be feminine? Women get hairy faces too you know. Cysts on the ovaries or other things can cause it. Indeed I sometimes joke that as a woman I have the joy to look forward to of exchanging my monthly bloodletting in older age for a shagging moustache!

No point in twisting the debate into your own personal hang ups concerning your own vanity issues. In particular to demonise any off the cuff remarks I might be making? This debate is not about your vanity or mine. Or is it about female sexual health matters.

It is also a bit late in the fight for you to be suddenly sticking up for transsexuals' personnel grooming woes. With all due respect?

Annasopra

Gatling wrote: »

No it has not and it wouldn't be the first that various claims about whats in these threads has been made and Proven completely untrue .

Sorry what?

There havent been posts shaming trans women about "mutilating" surgery and deviants?

ingalway

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Maybe you do. But going online to express or condemn their right is circumventing their existence and interfering with it.

Just because you have a belief does not automatically entitle you to express it .... or to interfere with someone else's belief just because you don't agree with it.

It is akin to Nazi Germany in the 30's, think about it?

I would say telling lesbians that a biological male, who calls himself a lesbian, with a penis, is a perfectly natural sexual partner for them is way more skin to 1930's Nazi Germany, think about it
Women wanting to express their rights to single sex spaces and sports without being called transphobic, TERFs and threatened with physical and sexual violence is actually free speech.
Think about that.

Gruffalux

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm not seeing all this agreement over equal rights, care and protection around here though when referrring to trans people should be shamed, trans people mutilating themselves and deviants. Theres this weird untrue narrative in this thread that the only insults in it are cis and terf and that the thread has been really respectful about trans people.

You and I have discussed this over many threads. I have never said such things and have always proposed the third space. As I have seen it proposed by trans people elsewhere. For many trans people the actual mental, emotional or physical act of transitioning gender expression to one opposite the natal sex they know they are is actually important. They do not want their history and biological factuality obliterated by lies.
I cannot speak for other people in the thread. Or be associated with others opinions.

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

deviants?

There was a historical quote posted ,

NoBody was called or told they are a deviant nobody on this thread I know you want to say they were but no your wrong

Gruffalux

IAMAMORON wrote: »

No point in twisting the debate into your own personal hang ups concerning your own vanity issues. In particular to demonise any off the cuff remarks I might be making? This debate is not about your vanity or mine. Or is it about female sexual health matters.

It is also a bit late in the fight for you to be suddenly sticking up for transsexuals' personnel grooming woes. With all due respect?

Sorry now but you are the one saying people should look feminine or get the piss taken out of them.
Im sure you will also be happy to know I do not yet have a moustache

Gervais08

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm not seeing all this agreement over equal rights, care and protection around here though when referrring to trans people should be shamed, trans people mutilating themselves and deviants. Theres this weird untrue narrative in this thread that the only insults in it are cis and terf and that the thread has been really respectful about trans people.

You are being dishonest there.

I NEVER said trans people should be shamed.

I said - and I stand by it - that going into a waiting room full of scared women, worried about the thought of losing one or both breasts to disease and then expressing envy of these poor women as their “top surgery” has yet to come through (purely elective cosmetic surgery paid by the HSE) - yes these people SHOULD feel ashamed.

I did not say “trans people should be shamed” and I’ll ask you withdraw it.