Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Annasopra

Gatling wrote: »

There was a historical quote posted ,

NoBody was called or told they are a deviant nobody on this thread I know you want to say they were but no your wrong

Ah ok. Its perfectly acceptable to talk about shaming trans women. And trans women mutilating themselves. As I said there is a false narrative that this thread is respectful towards trans people.

IAMAMORON

ingalway wrote: »

I would say telling lesbians that a biological male, who calls himself a lesbian, with a penis, is a perfectly natural sexual partner for them is way more skin to 1930's Nazi Germany, think about it
Women wanting to express their rights to single sex spaces and sports without being called transphobic, TERFs and threatened with physical and sexual violence is actually free speech.
Think about that.

You are just making it up as you go along.

I wouldn't attempt to start telling any lesbian what to do with her sex life for starters?

That is probably the compounding difference between your attitude and mine and probably the part which reconciles your attitude to Nazi Germany most.

Gervais08

Gruffalux wrote: »

Sorry now but you are the one saying people should look feminine or get the piss taken out of them.
Im sure you will also be happy to know I do not yet have a moustache

Do we have to start being feminine??

I’m my dads old sweatshirt, men’s pajama bottoms and slippers.

I’m up for mockery it seems!!! Still there’s just me and the dog and I can reach the treats box ....

IAMAMORON

Gruffalux wrote: »

Sorry now but you are the one saying people should look feminine or get the piss taken out of them.
Im sure you will also be happy to know I do not yet have a moustache

As I said it was an off the cuff statement and not indicative of the general debate here.

Don't debase the debate, you are better than that, I know it.:)

Glad to hear your Ronnie is in good nick all the same.

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ah ok. .

No not ok .

How dare you try to make such a claim and then sit there ignoring it ,

This is what causes problems when people Openly lie and make false claims to further an agenda

Gervais08

IAMAMORON wrote: »

You are just making it up as you go along.

I wouldn't attempt to start telling any lesbian what to do with her sex life for starters?

That is probably the compounding difference between your attitude and mine and probably the part which reconciles your attitude to Nazi Germany most.

I’d suggest you Google “the cotton ceiling” and how many men think this is acceptable - but really, no one should be exposed to that.

I’ve never cared whether I was gay or straight; I’m straight but it’s just like me being left handed - in the DNA. But I’m glad I’m not a young lesbian being pressured into “lady dick”.

It’s coercive rape.

Annasopra

Gervais08 wrote: »

You are being dishonest there.

I NEVER said trans people should be shamed.

I said - and I stand by it - that going into a waiting room full of scared women, worried about the thought of losing one or both breasts to disease and then expressing envy of these poor women as their “top surgery” has yet to come through (purely elective cosmetic surgery paid by the HSE) - yes these people SHOULD feel ashamed.

I did not say “trans people should be shamed” and I’ll ask you withdraw it.

Nah

That is shaming trans women. You're not even trying to deny speaking about surgery in an insulting manner referring to it as "mutilation"

Gervais08

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nah

That is shaming trans women. You're not even trying to deny speaking about surgery in a ln insulting manner referring to it as "mutilation"

I stand by that also - and I have explained in a previous post.

Cutting off developing flesh where the musculature below is left in such a state that future reconstruction is either impossible or painful; breastfeeding is never going to happen - yes I stand by the descriptor that it’s “mutilation” of a perfectly healthy young body,

And I say again - show where I said “trans people should be shamed” or withdraw it.

IAMAMORON

Gervais08 wrote: »

I’d suggest you Google “the cotton ceiling” and how many men think this is acceptable - but really, no one should be exposed to that.

I’ve never cared whether I was gay or straight; I’m straight but it’s just like me being left handed - in the DNA. But I’m glad I’m not a young lesbian being pressured into “lady dick”.

It’s coercive rape.

This is another major misconception that many people have concerning teenagers or even pre adolescents commencing a transition. It is always assumed irregular and somehow contravening the rights of a child or something akin to abuse.

But for a child to receive medical assistance it needs to do so via a doctor. That is the truth. A doctor would have a duty of care towards all patients and would be guilty of malpractice were they to decide to commence any inappropriate transitioning. They certainly would be responsible for contacting the Gardaí were they to suspect that the child was being manipulated into an unnecessary transition.

silverharp

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This is another major misconception that many people have concerning teenagers or even pre adolescents commencing a transition. It is always assumed irregular and somehow contravening the rights of a child or something akin to abuse.

But for a child to receive medical assistance it needs to do so via a doctor. That is the truth. A doctor would have a duty of care towards all patients and would be guilty of malpractice were they to decide to commence any inappropriate transitioning. They certainly would be responsible for contacting the Gardaí were they to suspect that the child was being manipulated into an unnecessary transition.

havnt some medial professionals put their head above the parapet to say that they feel coerced in one way or another.

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

. They certainly would be responsible for contacting the Gardaí were they to suspect that the child was being manipulated into an unnecessary transition.

It's called fear of being labelled transpobic and sacked due to threats from activists .

But it's child abuse plain and simple

jam_mac_jam

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This is another major misconception that many people have concerning teenagers or even pre adolescents commencing a transition. It is always assumed irregular and somehow contravening the rights of a child or something akin to abuse.

But for a child to receive medical assistance it needs to do so via a doctor. That is the truth. A doctor would have a duty of care towards all patients and would be guilty of malpractice were they to decide to commence any inappropriate transitioning. They certainly would be responsible for contacting the Gardaí were they to suspect that the child was being manipulated into an unnecessary transition.

There is a recent case on this in the UK. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

The argument in that case is that she should have been challenged more by the doctor but you can see the doctor's point as well in that they don't want to challenge somebody or you could be denying them essential treatment.

Its a terrible situation to be in for the parents and doctors because you could be supporting a decision that the child will regret but if you don't support them you could be denying them treatment that they need.

IAMAMORON

silverharp wrote: »

havnt some medial professionals put their head above the parapet to say that they feel coerced in one way or another.

Not if they are doing their job properly.

It is the doctors' job to treat the patient, it is not a two way street.

Any doctors stating this have an angle. It they are being responsible and doing their jobs correctly it is not an issue.

It they do succumb to patient pressure they are contravening their duty of care and thus are liable to face prosecution from the Medical Council.

Gervais08

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

There is a recent case on this in the UK. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

The argument in that case is that she should have been challenged more by the doctor but you can see the doctor's point as well in that they don't want to challenge somebody or you could be denying them essential treatment.

Its a terrible situation to be in for the parents and doctors because you could be supporting a decision that the child will regret but if you don't support them you could be denying them treatment that they need.

A harrowing story - and Mermaids should be disbanded. Kids need to be encouraged to be free expressive little people, not slapped with a label when barely out of nappies.

Abuse, pure and simple.

Cilldara_2000

Gatling wrote: »

No not ok .

How dare you try to make such a claim and then sit there ignoring it ,

This is what causes problems when people Openly lie and make false claims to further an agenda

You've been openly lying throughout this thread. EG:

Gatling wrote: »

Still nothing that was posted specifically says one cannot change there gender back and forth ,
Some how I doubt any Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade will stop anyone changing gender identity several times.

The minister would end up in court having to try argue why a person can be physically forced to stay a gender they no longer feel they are ,the all accounts the majority of those who transition detransision at a later date ,

It's a bit much to see you accusing others.

km991148

Gatling wrote: »

It's called fear of being labelled transpobic and sacked due to threats from activists .

But it's child abuse plain and simple

I'm pretty sure the medical profession (particularly psychology and psychiatry) have pretty strong boards of ethics. Not to mention the judiciary and the other tenants if society that would have to be involved in this cover up.

None of us (as far as I'm aware) are experts in this field, but I do trust there are bodies in place that cover this.

They don't always get it right, but I trust that there is no mass fraud or foul play.

Gatling

Gervais08 wrote: »

A harrowing story - and Mermaids should be disbanded. Kids need to be encouraged to be free expressive little people, not slapped with a label when barely out of nappies.

Abuse, pure and simple.

It's not happening you are making it up

Oh wait it's true .

Sir Oxman

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm not seeing all this agreement over equal rights, care and protection around here though when referrring to trans people should be shamed, trans people mutilating themselves and deviants. Theres this weird untrue narrative in this thread that the only insults in it are cis and terf and that the thread has been really respectful about trans people.

One poster posting a Nietzschian quote on what may cause the decline of civilisations does not equate to the majority of posters.
I can't recall anyone saying people with gender dysphoria should be 'shamed'
Constantly saying anyone expressing an opposite opinion on gender ideology should be shamed and sacked is the only use of that I've witnessed.
Of course, that is framed as all expressed opinions resulting in sackings/cancellations in opposing one viewpoint are being 'abusive' and 'hating' with common sense thrown out the window and a new definition of 'bigotry' and 'hate' and 'transphobia' being drafted every week

An affirmation only model, widely practiced in the US and to some extent the UK and of relevance here in self-id land, is rightfully under scrutiny for the potential massive physical harm that that unproven model may bestow for life on very young people particularly, girls.
Whether anyone likes it or not, that is a valid talking point.
No one has mentioned 'cis' or 'terf' since a particular weeks leave from the thread was granted, thankfully.
Meanwhile, the 'transphobe' and 'bigot' blanket BS gets regular, hourly airings (on the old thread, but somewhat creeping back on this one)

silverharp

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Not if they are doing their job properly.

It is the doctors' job to treat the patient, it is not a two way street.

Any doctors stating this have an angle. It they are being responsible and doing their jobs correctly it is not an issue.

It they do succumb to patient pressure they are contravening their duty of care and thus are liable to face prosecution from the Medical Council.

All doctors have to be assumed to be responsible, they would lose their licence otherwise. They are human though and can feel coerced

Sir Oxman

silverharp wrote: »

All doctors have to be assumed to be responsible, they would lose their licence otherwise. They are human though and can feel coerced

Particularly with an 'accepted' ideological path being quite clearly laid out.
The large amount of resignations from the Tavistock in the UK (Irish citizens are referred there) would indicate there is something very, very wrong.
An Irish endocrinologist refused to partake in the advisory body to our govt as he said it was skewed with non-medical, non-professional activists which indicates an 'accepted' ideological pathway is at play.

IAMAMORON

silverharp wrote: »

All doctors have to be assumed to be responsible, they would lose their licence otherwise. They are human though and can feel coerced

They are in the position of power.

They don't get coerced.

They might be greedy and have a rubber arm, but that is a different issue, it is called ethics.

Doctors cannot technically be coerced.

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

They don't get coerced.



Doctors cannot technically be coerced.

So yes they can be cocered technically or otherwise

Gatling

Actually the Limerick womens prison situation is a prime example of how the system can be abused by nefarious persons for their own gain .

A self identifying male to female who is extremely manipulative , claimed to be trans the same person also made claims of being suicidal ,and had years of self harming scars ,and suffers various serious Illnesses all claims were false ,and yet
Got referrer to tavistock who didn't agree with being trans but yet got a GRC here , despite being labelled as extremely dangerous to girls and women and is now in a women's prison,

A dangerous individual with a history of mental illness was able to convince people they were trans and it was accepted no questions asked ,
Can other children or teens be convinced that they need to have gender reassignment absolutely yes .

Should children and teens given medication and surgery that will lead to further suffering and mental anguish because people including doctors couldn't say no

Gruffalux

km991148 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the medical profession (particularly psychology and psychiatry) have pretty strong boards of ethics. Not to mention the judiciary and the other tenants if society that would have to be involved in this cover up.

None of us (as far as I'm aware) are experts in this field, but I do trust there are bodies in place that cover this.

They don't always get it right, but I trust that there is no mass fraud or foul play.

The Tavistock GIDS clinic in the UK had 35 resignations including the most senior staff in 3 years to 2019 due to them feeling that the incorrect treatments were being prescribed.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/12/childrens-transgender-clinic-hit-35-resignations-three-years/


I saw an interesting report in a psychology journal yesterday - I am not going to link it as the psychologist started on a very Jungian note by referencing the Cybele and Attis theme and I think people would be turned off by that - but one of the points was a story that referenced ''coaching'' for young people. The story was told by Kaltiala‐Heino, in 2018 in a lecture called ‘Endocrine perspective‐pubertal development, sexual behaviour, gender identity and mental health in adolescence’ at the Tavistock Science of Gender Conference. She said that during her clinical interaction -

she noticed numerous young people shared identical accounts of their childhood. Several of the biological females she assessed, for instance, claimed to have spent significant portions of their childhood wandering alone in the forest imagining they were male wolves.

Couple that with the reports on the BBC of homophobic parents being a significant motivator as reported by senior staff at Tavistock. And of coaching online being significant.

I note again your use of the word ''mass'' as if the numbers must be visibly or emotionally over-whelming for one to act, much less have an opinion. I do not believe so. The numbers of people improperly served during the cervical screening scandal were not enormous. Nor were the numbers sterilised in Scandinavia in the past. (Though I do think it interesting that Scandinavian countries are leading the way in questioning now the affirmation model - perhaps they have learned from their own history of compulsory sterilisation eg. on people who wished to have sex reassignment surgery between 1972 - 2012.)
Personally I think any numbers wrongly treated are too many.

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

I saw an interesting report in a psychology journal yesterday - I am not going to link it as the psychologist started on a very Jungian note by referencing the Cybele and Attis theme and I think people would be turned off by that

Please do, sounds interesting - no need to filter on behalf of people, let them make their own minds up (but good to summarise)!

Gruffalux wrote: »

Personally I think any numbers wrongly treated are too many.

Could be. I mean technically one too many is too many, but probably impossible to achieve.

Also - 'mass' is relative. No need to take implications from my use of the word, especially when its regarding ones right to an opinion.

One clinic that has bad practice is one too many. Is there a conspiracy in the medical profession? The fact that so many doctors resigned would back up my assertion that they take ethics very seriously.

hometruths

IAMAMORON wrote: »

But there are plenty of women out there who retain their penis and testicles because they are either not comfortable with the surgery or would like to continue having orgasms. That might not suit people who don't agree with it, but it is a fact of life.

Is it ok to believe that this is an oxymoron and about as as good an example of the opposite of a fact of life as is possible to be? i.e women do not have either a penis or testicles, let alone both, so somebody who does is by definition a man.

That’s what I believe, and if you believe the absolute opposite is a fact of life, each to their own, but you believing it will not change my mind.

Gervais08

schmittel wrote: »

Is it ok to believe that this is an oxymoron and about as as good an example of the opposite of a fact of life as is possible to be? i.e women do not have either a penis or testicles, let alone both, so somebody who does is by definition a man.

That’s what I believe, and if you believe the absolute opposite is a fact of life, each to their own, but you believing it will not change my mind.

I’m afraid it’s akin to believing the sun sets in the north and the sun revolves around Jupiter.

You are free to hold the belief in anything you like - but if it is provably false, don’t expect any respect for it.

Gatling

km991148 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the medical profession (particularly psychology and psychiatry) have pretty strong boards of ethics. .

And yet they can still be coerced .

Anyone can be cocered especially children and vulnerable teens .
Despite best efforts of educators and community workers

jam_mac_jam

km991148 wrote: »

Please do, sounds interesting - no need to filter on behalf of people, let them make their own minds up (but good to summarise)!



Could be. I mean technically one too many is too many, but probably impossible to achieve.

Also - 'mass' is relative. No need to take implications from my use of the word, especially when its regarding ones right to an opinion.

One clinic that has bad practice is one too many. Is there a conspiracy in the medical profession? The fact that so many doctors resigned would back up my assertion that they take ethics very seriously.

Its not a conspiracy in the medical profession. Most doctors, if not all; are going to do the best that they think for their patients. You might do what you believe is best for a patient which at that time you decide to be puberty blockers and they cause damage that you didn't intend.

Like the case I linked above, its not a conspiracy, the doctor and the NHS in that case may have thought they were doing the right thing and later it turns out they weren't.

This is not an easy diagnosis or treatment. And they do take ethics seriously, that's why doctors are raising it in Sweden and the UK. Some of the doctors are questioning the right process and treatment.

Gruffalux

''Mass'' fraud is not a relative term. It is highly suggestive of Yuuuge numbers. Ask President Trump