Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

hometruths

Gervais08 wrote: »

I’m afraid it’s akin to believing the sun sets in the north and the sun revolves around Jupiter.

You are free to hold the belief in anything you like - but if it is provably false, don’t expect any respect for it.

Indeed, I have watched this debate grow over the past few years with amazement, but it has not really had any impact on me. I have not changed my mind about various facts of life and whilst I might think it is a bit daft, I don’t really care that so many other people do seem to have changed their mind about human biology.

However I am getting worried that it is going to impact me sooner or later because I have two young kids in school and just as I would not be happy if their teachers taught them that the sun sets in the north, I won’t be happy if they are taught the latest flavor of biology that happens to be in vogue at the time.

I will not be able to let this pass, and I am definitely concerned that it will cause trouble between me and my kids/wife/kids school.

Rodin

suicide_circus wrote: »

A transwoman has the right to believe themselves a woman.

Do I have the right not to believe they are a woman?

You have the right to tell them they're not a woman. Because they're not. We should ask more women if they feel transwomen are like them.... surely they should be the ones to decide if a new member meets the requirements to join the club?

Wibbs

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Its not a conspiracy in the medical profession. Most doctors, if not all; are going to do the best that they think for their patients. You might do what you believe is best for a patient which at that time you decide to be puberty blockers and they cause damage that you didn't intend.

Like the case I linked above, its not a conspiracy, the doctor and the NHS in that case may have thought they were doing the right thing and later it turns out they weren't.

This. And it's not as if the medical profession hasn't got it wrong many times in the past, or have followed current "fashions" within the profession. Electroshock therapy, damn near every child getting a tonsillectomy and/or adenoid removal, routine circumcision of boys(still goes on in the US). Massive overprescription of antibiotics. I'll bet the farm that similar will happen down the line with SSRI type meds.

They're human beings and the science and research is ongoing. Never mind they're under a lot of pressure and not just directly work and patient related. Hospitals and senior doctors can have preferences that juniors will tend to follow, drug suppliers will have their own interests and preferences. Research can take time to filter down to the frontlines. Remember stomach ulcers and how so many had them? An Australian(IIRC) doctor reckoned it had a bacterial cause and his own research showed the link, but it took years for it to filter down to your local GP, while the advice at the time chronic use of medications and bland food(which could aggravate it). Only a few years ago Trans went from body dysmorphia/mental illness to nope, not them. They were apparently right then, but not now.

km991148

Gruffalux wrote: »

''Mass'' fraud is not a relative term. It is highly suggestive of Yuuuge numbers. Ask President Trump

lol - please don't - we don't need to add another tangent to this thread :pac:

Gatling

Rodin wrote: »

We should ask more women if they feel transwomen are like them.... surely they should be the ones to decide if a new member meets the requirements to join the club?

But we heard only trans and gay people should be allowed to discuss it ,

If we all agreed that only trans and gay people would get to decide who's what or not ,we already know lesbians don't agree that just because you self identify as a woman it doesn't mean they are women and lesbians ,who they could say no I don't want to have a relationship or sleep with a man even if they self identify as the opposite

That would leave a situation where only self identified trans and gay men to decides who is a real woman and who isn't ,
only a cohort of men would get to Decide .

Seems very wrong in my opinion

Rodin

Wibbs wrote: »

This. And it's not as if the medical profession hasn't got it wrong many times in the past, or have followed current "fashions" within the profession. Electroshock therapy, damn near every child getting a tonsillectomy and/or adenoid removal, routine circumcision of boys(still goes on in the US). Massive overprescription of antibiotics. I'll bet the farm that similar will happen down the line with SSRI type meds.

They're human beings and the science and research is ongoing. Never mind they're under a lot of pressure and not just directly work and patient related. Hospitals and senior doctors can have preferences that juniors will tend to follow, drug suppliers will have their own interests and preferences. Research can take time to filter down to the frontlines. Remember stomach ulcers and how so many had them? An Australian(IIRC) doctor reckoned it had a bacterial cause and his own research showed the link, but it took years for it to filter down to your local GP, while the advice at the time chronic use of medications and bland food(which could aggravate it). Only a few years ago Trans went from body dysmorphia/mental illness to nope, not them. They were apparently right then, but not now.

I don't think the medical profession having it wrong on 'once a male, always a male'.

km991148

Gatling wrote: »

But we heard only trans and gay people should be allowed to discuss it ,

If we all agreed that only trans and gay people would get to decide who's what or not ,we already know lesbians don't agree that just because you self identify as a woman it doesn't mean they are women and lesbians ,who they could say no I don't want to have a relationship or sleep with a man even if they self identify as the opposite

That would leave a situation where only self identified trans and gay men to decides who is a real woman and who isn't ,
only a cohort of men would get to Decide .

Seems very wrong in my opinion

Who?

I don't think that's the general opinion at all?

(And we talk about absurd situations - taking one persons extreme views and forcing them on everyone.. well - isn't that the very thing that some people think is happening and are unhappy about?)

ingalway

Gatling wrote: »

But we heard only trans and gay people should be allowed to discuss it ,

If we all agreed that only trans and gay people would get to decide who's what or not ,we already know lesbians don't agree that just because you self identify as a woman it doesn't mean they are women and lesbians ,who they could say no I don't want to have a relationship or sleep with a man even if they self identify as the opposite

That would leave a situation where only self identified trans and gay men to decides who is a real woman and who isn't ,
only a cohort of men would get to Decide .

Seems very wrong in my opinion

One of the very few good things to come out of this is that some men are actually understanding what is going on and being very supportive of women, even when they are not directly impacted by it. Although I think there a very few men who are not at least indirectly impacted; their mothers, daughters, sisters, nieces, cousins etc will be affected by this, if not right now then at some point in the near future.
Thank you.

Gatling

km991148 wrote: »

And we talk about absurd situations -

See when the only come back is absurd ,

So would would get to Decide if it came down to it ,

Women or self identified trans

Cilldara_2000

schmittel wrote: »

Is it ok to believe that this is an oxymoron and about as as good an example of the opposite of a fact of life as is possible to be? i.e women do not have either a penis or testicles, let alone both, so somebody who does is by definition a man.

That’s what I believe, and if you believe the absolute opposite is a fact of life, each to their own, but you believing it will not change my mind.

Gervais08 wrote: »

I’m afraid it’s akin to believing the sun sets in the north and the sun revolves around Jupiter.

You are free to hold the belief in anything you like - but if it is provably false, don’t expect any respect for it.

A male to female transgender woman after transitioning and surgery has no penis or testicles. You're both inadvertently supporting the argument you oppose.

You are ofc free to believe what you like. But to completely deny the existence of transgender women and gender dysphoria is completely at odds with the science and puts you in the same lot as those who believe the sun revolves around Jupiter.

EG on the science: https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/

There are worthwhile points to discuss such as much of what Gruffalux has brought up in the thread. Outright denial of gender identity for some few poor unfortunates being at odds with their biological sex is not a worthwhile point of discussion. It flies in the face of the evidence, science and real experience of transgender people.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Great.

But why is it that the " most of us " care so much about it so as to go online and make derogatory comments about their existence?

I mean you are either respecting their human rights are you aren't? There is no middle ground here, no grey area.

Going online to express hate speech about any section of society is not to be tolerated, it is not about freedom of speech, it is a matter of respecting your fellow neighbours and persons right to exist.

Hate speech. Indeed.


Its (ironically) not binary - to accept transpeople , and fully support their demands/rights or be a transphobe.

Is refusing to believe a man can become a woman transphobic. Yes/No
Is the expression of this belief a hate crime? Yes/No

Is respecting the rights of a trans woman to express as their preferred gender, but rejecting their participation in women's sports , or womens"spaces" transphobic or hateful? Yes/No.

3 questions there, you can elaborate if you like, and we might try discuss rationally, or you can obfuscate and sling disparaging generalisations...


All I hear is "respect the rights of trans folk, but what appears a disregard for reciprocal respect for the rights of others, or to even discuss it rationally.

Gervais08

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

A male to female transgender woman after transitioning and surgery has no penis or testicles. You're both inadvertently supporting the argument you oppose.

You are ofc free to believe what you like. But to completely deny the existence of transgender women and gender dysphoria is completely at odds with the science and puts you in the same lot as those who believe the sun revolves around Jupiter.

EG on the science: https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/

There are worthwhile points to discuss such as much of what Gruffalux has brought up in the thread. Outright denial of gender identity for some few poor unfortunates being at odds with their biological sex is not a worthwhile point of discussion. It flies in the face of the evidence, science and real experience of transgender people.

Can you kindly point to where I denied the right of existence of transgender people ?

Also, no one gets to decide what is “worthy” of discussion, it’s a free forum.

km991148

Gatling wrote: »

See when the only come back is absurd ,

So would would get to Decide if it came down to it ,

Women or self identified trans

Decide what exactly?

And come back to what? What gives you licence to absurdity even discussing serious topics?

Limpy

Why did the gay, bisexual and lesbian group's allow transgenderism to be associated with LGB?

Wibbs

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

A male to female transgender woman after transitioning and surgery has no penis or testicles. You're both inadvertently supporting the argument you oppose.

I'm a man, if in the morning I'm attacked by a pitbull that has been fed only on meatballs and sausages and chows down on my man parts with painful vigour, I'm still a man. A woman who loses her breasts, or uterus, or even vagina because of cancer is still a woman. So it doesn't really fit.

You are ofc free to believe what you like. But to completely deny the existence of transgender women and gender dysphoria is completely at odds with the science and puts you in the same lot as those who believe the sun revolves around Jupiter.

1) I certainly don't deny the existence of Trans folks, indeed I suspect in time it'll be pinned down to having an intersex brain.

2) I'm afraid no, the science isn't close to solid on this and isn't within an ass's roar of the science behind a heliocentric solar system. Indeed your link says this:

The exact cause of gender dysphoria is unknown and there is much debate over the possible causes of gender dysphoria.

Causes of gender dysphoria most likely involve a number of different factors. Recent studies have suggested that there may be biological causes associated with the development of gender identity before birth.

More research is needed before the causes of gender dysphoria can be fully understood.

IE: it exists, but fecked if we know why, we have some hypotheses around it, but research is ongoing.

BTW your link to the HSE is basically a copy paste job from the British NHS(not a shock and the usual laziness) with local changes for local services and the NHS hasn't exactly covered itself with glory on this subject.


Content provided by NHS Choices www.nhs.uk and adapted for Ireland by the Health A-Z.

Not so long ago the same link stated one could permanently change one's gender, it's now permanently "alter" one's sex.

Gatling

km991148 wrote: »

Decide what exactly?

Who's a woman of course

Mic 1972

Limpy wrote: »

Why did the gay, bisexual and lesbian group's allow transgenderism to be associated with LGB?

That's actually a very good point
Transgenderism has taken a twist of its own, it's basically the opposite to homosexuality. In fact it's pushing an agenda to turn gay/lesbians into heterosexual transgenders

Wibbs

Limpy wrote: »

Why did the gay, bisexual and lesbian group's allow transgenderism to be associated with LGB?

I seem to recall a few within those communities were against it. I recall here on Boards.ie years ago the LGB forum had a few not happy at all that T was being added.

That said LGB folks have long suffered from prejudice and open hostility around their sexuality and how that in turn reflects on their gender experiences, so I can well understand the fit with Trans folks, because there would be quite the bit of overlap. The more recent "lesbians should accept my lady penis" bit is a) fringe and b) WTF?

km991148

Mic 1972 wrote: »

In fact it's pushing an agenda to turn gay/lesbians into heterosexual transgenders

I'm pretty sure it's not really.

I'm also pretty sure there will be some random article to support this theory.

Mic 1972

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

A male to female transgender woman after transitioning and surgery has no penis or testicles. You're both inadvertently supporting the argument you oppose.

You are ofc free to believe what you like. But to completely deny the existence of transgender women and gender dysphoria is completely at odds with the science and puts you in the same lot as those who believe the sun revolves around Jupiter.

EG on the science: https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/

There are worthwhile points to discuss such as much of what Gruffalux has brought up in the thread. Outright denial of gender identity for some few poor unfortunates being at odds with their biological sex is not a worthwhile point of discussion. It flies in the face of the evidence, science and real experience of transgender people.

Biological sex is in fact the gender. It's defined by a specific couple of chromosomes and cannot be changed surgically.
The only things that a transgender person can change with surgery is appearance.

In western society it is accepted that transgender people should be referred to as member of the opposite sex, however science has no moral obligation and should not be overwritten by any ideology.

IAMAMORON

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Hate speech. Indeed.


Its (ironically) not binary - to accept transpeople , and fully support their demands/rights or be a transphobe.

Is refusing to believe a man can become a woman transphobic. Yes/No
Is the expression of this belief a hate crime? Yes/No

Is respecting the rights of a trans woman to express as their preferred gender, but rejecting their participation in women's sports , or womens"spaces" transphobic or hateful? Yes/No.

3 questions there, you can elaborate if you like, and we might try discuss rationally, or you can obfuscate and sling disparaging generalisations...


All I hear is "respect the rights of trans folk, but what appears a disregard for reciprocal respect for the rights of others, or to even discuss it rationally.

I am answering.

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Is refusing to believe a man can become a woman transphobic. Yes/No

No

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Is the expression of this belief a hate crime? Yes/No

No, it is not a crime, but certainly going online to express this openly in the face of transgendered persons is verifiable hate speech, totally unnecessary and pointless. But it is not a crime, at all. Morally reprehensible, but not a crime.

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Is respecting the rights of a trans woman to express as their preferred gender, but rejecting their participation in women's sports , or womens"spaces" transphobic or hateful? Yes/No.

It massively depends on what the respective policy is of whatever sports body is involved and is certainly none of your business. Why would you feel the need to get involved? By the way this is the same pedantic nonsense always getting dragged up by wind up merchants like yourself. It was discussed many posts ago, there are less than 50 contentious issues of this across the sporting world globally, yet people who don't conform to transsexualism are always waving it around, it is a non argument and certainly a waste of your time.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It massively depends on what the respective policy is of whatever sports body is involved and is certainly none of your business. Why would you feel the need to get involved? By the way this is the same pedantic nonsense always getting dragged up by wind up merchants like yourself. It was discussed many posts ago, there are less than 50 contentious issues of this across the sporting world globally, yet people who don't conform to transsexualism are always waving it around, it is a non argument and certainly a waste of your time.

50 is 50 too many and most countries don't as yet have self ID. As it happens it is not upto " the respective policy is of whatever sports body is involved", not in Ireland which is the main topic of the thread. Here it would presumably be illegal to treat trans women differently, even the IOC rules on testosterone might be considered illegal. If anybody cared to bring a case.

Annasopra

Mic 1972 wrote: »

That's actually a very good point
Transgenderism has taken a twist of its own, it's basically the opposite to homosexuality. In fact it's pushing an agenda to turn gay/lesbians into heterosexual transgenders

No it isnt. Thats complete and utter drivel.

Trans people like cis people all have their own sexual orientation. There are lots of trans people who are LGB and lots who are not.

IAMAMORON

Deleted User wrote: »

50 is 50 too many and most countries don't as yet have self ID. As it happens it is not upto " the respective policy is of whatever sports body is involved", not in Ireland which is the main topic of the thread. Here it would presumably be illegal to treat trans women differently, even the IOC rules on testosterone might be considered illegal. It anybody cared to bring a case.

Can you post a link please to verify this?

Welcome to boards.ie by the way, you are very welcome.

jam_mac_jam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

50 is 50 too many and most countries don't as yet have self ID. As it happens it is not upto " the respective policy is of whatever sports body is involved", not in Ireland which is the main topic of the thread. Here it would presumably be illegal to treat trans women differently, even the IOC rules on testosterone might be considered illegal. It anybody cared to bring a case.

There was 50 given as an example pulled off wikipedia. We have no idea if there are only 50 transgender people playing in sport.

Gruffalux

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am answering.

No

No, it is not a crime, but certainly going online to express this openly in the face of transgendered persons is verifiable hate speech, totally unnecessary and pointless. But it is not a crime, at all. Morally reprehensible, but not a crime.




It massively depends on what the respective policy is of whatever sports body is involved and is certainly none of your business. Why would you feel the need to get involved? By the way this is the same pedantic nonsense always getting dragged up by wind up merchants like yourself. It was discussed many posts ago, there are less than 50 contentious issues of this across the sporting world globally, yet people who don't conform to transsexualism are always waving it around, it is a non argument and certainly a waste of your time.

Answers 1 and 3 put you outside what is currently acceptable for being an ally to trans activism. That is, you must accept that in all circumstances a transwoman is a woman, a transman is a man, and there can be no exceptions brokered when it comes to such matters as sport or anything else.

Answer 2 doesn't make sense. You have basically said giving Answer 1 and 2 is not a crime but publicly expressing the same answers 1 and 2 as you have given is ''hate speech''. Therefore you are making hate speech under your own definition.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Can you post a link please to verify this?

Welcome to boards.ie by the way, you are very welcome.

I've been here before. Thanks though.

Can I post a link to prove what exactly? Sports are not protected in the legislation.

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Trans people like cis people all have their own sexual orientation. There are lots of trans people who are LGB and lots who are not.

But if a man self identifies as a woman and they want to sleep with just women does that not mean they are now lesbian .

hometruths

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

A male to female transgender woman after transitioning and surgery has no penis or testicles. You're both inadvertently supporting the argument you oppose.

You are ofc free to believe what you like. But to completely deny the existence of transgender women and gender dysphoria is completely at odds with the science and puts you in the same lot as those who believe the sun revolves around Jupiter.

EG on the science: https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/

There are worthwhile points to discuss such as much of what Gruffalux has brought up in the thread. Outright denial of gender identity for some few poor unfortunates being at odds with their biological sex is not a worthwhile point of discussion. It flies in the face of the evidence, science and real experience of transgender people.

Discussing the real experience of transgender people is different to the post I quoted.

For instance I don't really have a problem with the statement - "plenty of transgender women out there who retain their penis and testicles" - it does not seem strange to me that a transgender women might (or might not) have a penis and testicles. That I can accept as a fact of life.

However what I quoted was "plenty of women out there who retain their penis and testicles".

I was disputing IAMAMORONs suggestion that women having a penis and testicles is simply a fact of life.

Which is complete nonsense.

km991148

Gatling wrote: »

But if a man self identifies as a woman and they want to sleep with just women does that not mean they are now lesbian .

Is the label important on this scenario?