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Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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    #872
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Gatling wrote: »
    But if a man self identifies as a woman and they want to sleep with just women does that not mean they are now lesbian .

    Yes

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #873
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    Answers 1 and 3 put you outside what is currently acceptable for being an ally to trans activism. That is, you must accept that in all circumstances a transwoman is a woman, a transman is a man, and there can be no exceptions brokered when it comes to such matters as sport or anything else.

    Answer 2 doesn't make sense. You have basically said giving Answer 1 and 2 is not a crime but publicly expressing the same answers 1 and 2 as you have given is ''hate speech''. Therefore you are making hate speech under your own definition.

    Hate speech is only deemed a crime if it is verifiable and can be linked to inciting crime. But as a thing it is not illegal , at all.

    It depends on the substance of the hate speech, its context, delivery and the depth of its' tact and bias.


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    #874
    mohawk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    Cilldara_2000 wrote: »
    But to completely deny the existence of transgender women and gender dysphoria is completely at odds with the science and puts you in the same lot as those who believe the sun revolves around Jupiter.

    Can I just point out that you do not need to have gender dysphoria to be transgender anymore. There is indeed plenty of scientific evidence regarding gender dysphoria.

    The list of what constitutes as transgender according to Stonewall is quite extensive and includes cross-dressers.

    I think many people who think of a transgender person thinks of the people who went to a doctor and got a medical diagnosis and if they wanted to transition had to live as their preferred gender for a couple years before they could medically transition. This is the minority of people who calls themselves trans.

    Trans activists have worked hard to remove gender dysphoria as a medical condition and have succeeded. (As an aside the importance placed on children transitioning but not it’s not important for adults to transition medically and surgically). Other types of body dysphorias are not treated by affirmation. Why was it important for trans activists to change how it’s categorised by medical professionals? Well one reason is what trans activists call ‘gatekeeping’. Not everyone presenting to doctors was deemed appropriate for transitioning.


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    #875
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    km991148 wrote: »
    Is the label important on this scenario?

    Absolutely - when the self identifying woman wants to have sex with “other“ lesbians.

    Why would a same sex attracted woman want to have straight, penetrative sex with a male body???


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    #876
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    km991148 wrote: »
    Is the label important on this scenario?

    Yes.

    Two women having sex = lesbian

    Two men having sex = gay

    One man and one woman having sex = straight

    All agree on the above yes ? And everyone is happy yes

    Now we Have been repeatedly told on here that a man who self identifies as a woman is a woman , now if that person preference is to sleep with just women that's makes them lesbian being a man cannot have lesbian sex .
    That then brings us to consent and what that means in the new dynamic
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    #877
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Gatling wrote: »
    Yes.

    Two women having sex = lesbian

    Two men having sex = gay

    One man and one woman having sex = straight

    All agree on the above yes ? And everyone is happy yes

    Now we Have been repeatedly told on here that a man who self identifies as a woman is a woman , now if that person preference is to sleep with just women that's makes them lesbian being a man cannot have lesbian sex .
    That then brings us to consent and what that means in the new dynamic

    There have been a few cases - one quite recently Gayle Newland - where a woman has been convicted of sexual assault for pretending to be a man to have sex with a woman.


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    #878
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    There have been a few cases - one quite recently Gayle Newland - where a woman has been convicted of sexual assault for pretending to be a man to have sex with a woman.

    There has actually a few cases in the UK recently
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    #879
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've been here before. Thanks though.

    Can I post a link to prove what exactly? Sports are not protected in the legislation.

    Oh interesting.

    Would you like to share with us what your former username was?


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    #880
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Yes

    Thank you
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    #881
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Gatling wrote: »
    But if a man self identifies as a woman and they want to sleep with just women does that not mean they are now lesbian .

    No. Because they were born heterosexual and having surgery doesn't make you homosexual no more than it changes your biological sex.


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    #882
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,990 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Does anybody know what the law says about how much disclosure in the dating game is required by a transgender woman who has chosen to retain her penis and testicles?

    i.e what happens if a man meets a transgender woman on night out, and is between the sheets back at her place when he discovers she has retained her penis and testicles, and he says "Hang on, I thought you were a woman?"

    Who is at fault here - is the man guilty of a hate crime for misgendering the transwoman, or is the transwoman guilty of some sort of sexual misconduct? or both or neither?

    Genuine question. I suspect both would have sympathisers on twitter, but wondering how the law would treat such a scenario.


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    #883
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    schmittel wrote: »
    Does anybody know what the law says about how much disclosure in the dating game is required by a transgender woman who has chosen to retain her penis and testicles?

    i.e what happens if a man meets a transgender woman on night out, and is between the sheets back at her place when he discovers she has retained her penis and testicles, and he says "Hang on, I thought you were a woman?"

    Who is at fault here - is the man guilty of a hate crime for misgendering the transwoman, or is the transwoman guilty of some sort of sexual misconduct? or both or neither?

    Genuine question. I suspect both would have sympathisers on twitter, but wondering how the law would treat such a scenario.

    You should really ask Twitter first in fairness.

    What would you do by the way?


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    #884
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    AllForIt wrote: »
    No. Because they were born heterosexual and having surgery doesn't make you homosexual no more than it changes your biological sex.

    From what I've read on here that's not true.
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    #885
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Oh interesting.

    Would you like to share with us what your former username was?

    In theory that would be a violation of my privacy rights. That said I have a number in my name, so maybe there is a clue there. (Not that you can search anymore. )

    So back to the question you didn't answer. During the different stages of the legislation various restrictions on the transition were removed, and protection of sports was amongst them. As was a doctor's appraisal for over 18s. And others.

    So the law creates a legal truth, and a biological fiction. A trans women is a woman in law. Since there is no transition needed this can allow full bodied males to compete in competitions. Where self idenfication is accepted as a rule ( in some American sporting organisations or university teams) this has already happened.


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    #886
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Gatling wrote: »
    From what I've read on here that's not true.

    Yes I noticed ;)

    edit: so you've got the ideological answer or the common sense answer, you are free to make up your mind which to believe.

    Actually thinking about that further, if you take the ideological answer as truth then it can work the other way around as well and turn a gay straight. Finally there is a way.


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    #887
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,990 ✭✭✭hometruths


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    You should really ask Twitter first in fairness.

    What would you do by the way?

    I am not a big twitterer. It is is bit extreme on all sides of any debate.

    I would say "Hang on I thought you were a woman?" and I would be pretty cheesed off about. I would feel my consent to intimacy had been obtained by deception.

    And I'd be furious to be then accused of a hate crime for misgendering.


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    #888
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    I am answering.

    No

    No, it is not a crime, but certainly going online to express this openly in the face of transgendered persons is verifiable hate speech, totally unnecessary and pointless. But it is not a crime, at all. Morally reprehensible, but not a crime.

    It massively depends on what the respective policy is of whatever sports body is involved and is certainly none of your business. Why would you feel the need to get involved? By the way this is the same pedantic nonsense always getting dragged up by wind up merchants like yourself. It was discussed many posts ago, there are less than 50 contentious issues of this across the sporting world globally, yet people who don't conform to transsexualism are always waving it around, it is a non argument and certainly a waste of your time.

    Notwithstanding answer no.1 putting you off side with the trans movement (maybe even a smidgen transphobic for some), to express a view you agree with, is now "verifiable" hate speech? And "morally reprehensible"?

    Is wrongthought so dangerous, you won't express your views? The sin is the expression, not the thought...

    Less of the slights, no need to resort to them, I assure you I'm not a wind up merchant.


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    #889
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    there are lots of trans people who are LGB and lots who are not.


    I thought the T in LGBT stood for trans


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    #890
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Gervais08 wrote: »
    There have been a few cases - one quite recently Gayle Newland - where a woman has been convicted of sexual assault for pretending to be a man to have sex with a woman.

    But if they had a cert saying they were a man.....then surely legally the plaintiff would not have a case?
    Just because their definition of a man does not meet the governments


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    #891
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    km991148 wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure it's not really.

    I'm also pretty sure there will be some random article to support this theory.


    You dont need a random article to explain that to you, all you need is logic.
    If you tell a gay young boy that he could become an heterosexual woman by simply taking hormones and surgery you have turned a gay man into a heterosexual trans.
    I would imagine that a lot of gay/lesbians will have a problem with this


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    #892
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I thought the T in LGBT stood for trans
    Well technically the B folks are also L and G so...

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #893
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Asexual

    Hetrosexual

    Homosexual

    Metrosexual

    Transexual

    Lesbian

    Bisexual

    I think that's all the official terminology.
    Different strokes for different folks. ..


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    #894
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Hetrosexual

    Homosexual

    Metrosexual

    Transexual

    Lesbian

    Bisexual

    I think that's all the official terminology.

    Asexual

    and of course the eponymous

    Trysexual


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    #895
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    Notwithstanding answer no.1 putting you off side with the trans movement (maybe even a smidgen transphobic for some), to express a view you agree with, is now "verifiable" hate speech? And "morally reprehensible"?

    Is wrongthought so dangerous, you won't express your views? The sin is the expression, not the thought...

    Less of the slights, no need to resort to them, I assure you I'm not a wind up merchant.

    Apologies for the slight... but a spade is a spade.


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    #896
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Apologies for the slight... but a spade is a spade.

    Indeed. I'll leave it with the Mods, won't dignify it by reporting it.

    So you're afraid to express your thoughts- thoughts we share, for fear of uttering "verifiable hate speech", but as I do, I'm morally reprehensible...


    Theres a word for people like you!


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    #897
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Asexual

    Hetrosexual

    Homosexual

    Metrosexual

    Transexual

    Lesbian

    Bisexual

    I think that's all the official terminology.
    Different strokes for different folks. ..

    Apparent there are a lot lot more and they get seriously nuts - wait till you read about transmasculine and neutrois!!

    I’m convinced a group got together over drinks one day and came up with the most nonsense list they could think of and see how many they got to fall for it.


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    #898
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Well technically the B folks are also L and G so...


    Totally agree. In fact it should be called LG only and leave the Trans sort out their own demands separately, as they don't seem to fit with LG much


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    #899
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,570 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    Indeed. I'll leave it with the Mods, won't dignify it by reporting it.

    So you're afraid to express your thoughts- thoughts we share, for fear of uttering "verifiable hate speech", but as I do, I'm morally reprehensible...


    Theres a word for people like you!

    Mod:

    Threadbanned, you can't seem to keep it civil


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    #900
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I thought the T in LGBT stood for trans

    It does. Clearly you missed the point. Cis people can be lesbian, gay or bi or straight and trans people can be lesbian, gay or bi or straight.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #901
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    It does. Clearly you missed the point. Cis people can be lesbian, gay or bi or straight and trans people can be lesbian, gay or bi or straight.

    All true but a man can never have lesbian sex with a woman.


This discussion has been closed.
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