Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

1123heavy

I would never go down the avenue of mocking or name calling anybody, trans or not. My issue though when I have discussed this as that they tend to get very emotional and are unable to debate properly without the emotion getting in the way (I understand this is a topic close to home for them but it is annoying).

We are born male or female, it is that simple is my view. What is happening nowadays is there is so much activisim that people are literally becoming mentally bombarded with so many thoughts, one place where this happens is the schools. You have perfectly happy young boys and girls being taught it is ok if they wish to be a member of the other sex, this then sews the seeds of doubt in their mind and gets them doubting their whole existence.

Unfortunately some get overwhelmed by these thoughts and they consume their mind until they convince themselves they were "supposed" to be the other sex. My heartfelt view is they need social support and those pushing these agendas need to serve jail time.

We are all aware of the stories of young adults in their 20s regretting the decision to change sex at the ages of 13/14 but sadly it is far too late to switch back - a true nightmare. These are solid cases where the reality cannot be denied.

dodderangler

1123heavy wrote: »

I would never go down the avenue of mocking or name calling anybody, trans or not. My issue though when I have discussed this as that they tend to get very emotional and are unable to debate properly without the emotion getting in the way (I understand this is a topic close to home for them but it is annoying).

We are born male or female, it is that simple is my view. What is happening nowadays is there is so much activisim that people are literally becoming mentally bombarded with so many thoughts, one place where this happens is the schools. You have perfectly happy young boys and girls being taught it is ok if they wish to be a member of the other sex, this then sews the seeds of doubt in their mind and gets them doubting their whole existence.

Unfortunately some get overwhelmed by these thoughts and they consume their mind until they convince themselves they were "supposed" to be the other sex. My heartfelt view is they need social support and those pushing these agendas need to serve jail time.

We are all aware of the stories of young adults in their 20s regretting the decision to change sex at the ages of 13/14 but sadly it is far too late to switch back - a true nightmare. These are solid cases where the reality cannot be denied.

well said mate. media is also responsible as youth depend on media to tell thm how to live etc.
example media told the world joe biden is president after 5 hours on the 4th of November. media doesn't decide that.
world is mentally f***ed now. give me a house on an island to farm and hunt and fish and im happy

AllForIt

_Godot_ wrote: »

I don't really post here, but I do read all the posts, and I am trans.

I asked about non-binary and gender fluid specifically, not trans, tks anyway.

derfderf

Gervais08 wrote: »

“Feeling like a man or a woman” - it’s just perpetuating ridiculously old fashioned stereotypes tho.

Just be yourself, if you like “feminine” things and you’re a man? Who cares? Just live your life and be happy.

This is the part I don't get. It's usually the same people that are champions of gender idenity that are against gender norms.
If there are no gender norms, what are the differences between one gender and another? How can you feel like a woman inside when you have nothing to compare it to?

Dante7

Amnesty and NWCI now seek to remove political representation from women who disagree with them. This will not end well for them.

https://twitter.com/JinnysJoe/status/1329847671063015424?s=20

Gatling

Dante7 wrote: »

Amnesty and NWCI now seek to remove political representation from women who disagree with them. This will not end well for them.

Wtf .

It's actually getting worse

jam_mac_jam

So the national womens council and Amnesty are asking politicians not to represent anyone who doesn't agree with self ID.

This is laughable. Women need to break away from the women's groups? Actually insane.

Gatling

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

So the national womens council and Amnesty are asking politicians not to represent anyone who doesn't agree with self ID.

This is laughable. Women need to break away from the women's groups? Actually insane.

The rights of women will be Decided by a cohort of men self identifying as female

jam_mac_jam

Gatling wrote: »

The rights of women will be Decided by a cohort of men self identifying as female

Does everyone not deserve political representation though? How can Amnesty be asking for people not to get political representation.

My brain actually does not understand this. I guess I just have less rights because I don't agree with gender theory.

Wow.

Dante7

This is because Sara Philips, a transwoman, has been appointed to the National Women's Council of Ireland. That letter has all the hallmarks of being drafted by a male trans activist.

Gervais08

Centuries of men making our decisions; barely 50 years of freedom (and not in all matters really) and we’re looped back as long as the men identity as female.,

Gruffalux

Dante7 wrote: »

Amnesty and NWCI now seek to remove political representation from women who disagree with them. This will not end well for them.

https://twitter.com/JinnysJoe/status/1329847671063015424?s=20

Quite extraordinary. And signed by NCWI and Colm O Gorman came out and said proud to sign. I actually knew Colm's mother quite well and helped her out for some years in her life when things were difficult so I feel kind of personally offended that he signs up to calling a wide range of people far right. Bloody cheek.

Note the letter objects to people questioning "affirmative" treatment. This is becoming anachronistic treatment as regulatory bodies in some countries are calling a halt due to its experimental and irreversible nature. It will be seen in a future time as a terrible thing to have done to impressionable, depressed, anxious and often autistic children.

But to propagandise that anyone who is gender theory critical is FAR RIGHT!!!! Beggars belief. I have strong opinions on some issues that would be considered so far left as to be anarchistic. Also am life long anti war, anti imperialism activist.

That is pure US style identify politics schtick there. And that people having contrary opinions should have no representation. I am shocked that Amnesty and NCWI publicly put their signatures to this.

For anyone in the thread who previously said that this subject doesn't affect people or has been blown out of proportion etc etc all the hand waving stuff - look at this.

Gruffalux

Having read the letter in full I am amazed by its emotive, hysterical tone, that draws on all the out moded tropes about suicide, hatred, violence, threat etc being supposedly promoted by the so called bigots who dare to support sex based protection of rights and spaces such as sports or prisons etc. And who dare to question so called affirmative treatment of children. It sounds like it was written by a neurotic facist.

Gruffalux

The letter actually in black and white seeks to denounce "organisations that defend biology". And the National Council of Women in Ireland signed THAT!
I knew the situation was in serious need of rational attention but I did not think it was actually fecken delirious.

ILoveYourVibes

Both sides have literally gone mad.

Gruffalux

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Both sides have literally gone mad.

I am not mad.

ILoveYourVibes

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am not mad.

One can be mad over a single issue and sane in other aspects.

Gruffalux

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

One can be mad over a single issue and sane in other aspects.

I am not mad with respect to this issue.

Gervais08

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Both sides have literally gone mad.

Given that a women’s organization is going against women and seeking to remove representation from “defenders of biology” - can you please give an example of how the gender critical side have been equally as “mad” ?

Wibbs

Gervais08 wrote: »

Centuries of men making our decisions; barely 50 years of freedom (and not in all matters really)

As an aside, that's an all too common belief, but it's far more complex than that. It was centuries of a small minority of men(and sometimes even women) in power that made decisions for the mass of women and men. In the western world with a few exceptions the average woman got the vote either at the same time or very soon after the average man got the vote. In quite a few nations property owning women got the vote long before the average working man or woman. For most of human history post the agricultural revolution men were expendable bullet, or spear stoppers, and women were babymakers to produce the next generation of babymakers and bullet stoppers, both for a tiny elite.

Dante7 wrote: »

Amnesty and NWCI now seek to remove political representation from women who disagree with them. This will not end well for them.

https://twitter.com/JinnysJoe/status/1329847671063015424?s=20

That's insane alright, but in the current climate of division and hardline politics around identity and other things it'll sadly be a while before any reset. The "left" and the "right" are screaming loudly, the "left" get more airtime generally and the middle are squeezed wondering WTF is going on and in many ways to scared to call it for the bullsh1t it all is.

Gruffalux wrote: »

That is pure US style identify politics schtick there.

Bingo.

And that people having contrary opinions should have no representation. I am shocked that Amnesty and NCWI publicly put their signatures to this.

Sadly I'm not. In many ways I see this stuff as a new credo that jumped into the vacuum left by religions and the old certainties. A credo that is science averse, or picks the parts that agrees with it, it has its catechism and bishops and a fair number of fervent crawthumpers who will shout heresy! and call for excommunication for the unbelievers.

For anyone in the thread who previously said that this subject doesn't affect people or has been blown out of proportion etc etc all the hand waving stuff - look at this.

Indeed and it needs to be nipped in the bud and hard, but this kinda stuff is insidious, because for the vast majority in the middle they agree that Trans folks(or any other oppressed labelled group) do need support and kindness and rights, so it's very hard to navigate and reply to those who are apparently calling for that, so they ignore the insanity underneath.

Gruffalux

Wibbs wrote: »

Sadly I'm not. In many ways I see this stuff as a new credo that jumped into the vacuum left by religions and the old certainties. A credo that is science averse, or picks the parts that agrees with it, it has its catechism and bishops and a fair number of fervent crawthumpers who will shout heresy! and call for excommunication for the unbelievers.

Indeed and it needs to be nipped in the bud and hard, but this kinda stuff is insidious, because for the vast majority in the middle they agree that Trans folks(or any other oppressed labelled group) do need support and kindness and rights, so it's very hard to navigate and reply to those who are apparently calling for that, so they ignore the insanity underneath.

I am actually a bit flabbergasted today to be honest. Reading that this morning has me genuinely shocked.
My husband too said ''I am not surprised'' and when asked why he said the default position of most people now is not to argue anymore with anything, no matter how ridiculous the proposition is. It is the default position to be ''agreeable''. People don't even get moved to action about wars or atrocities.

Since reading that I have been checking around and it is hardly mentioned anywhere. That the National Council of Women in Ireland would sign an open letter calling people who question affirmation treatment and gender theory ideology FAR RIGHT and deserving of being removed from media and political representation actually really shocks me. How long before hate campaigns? How long before doxxing? I wanted to share this info with friends and colleagues but I am too nervous - what the actual hell.

Annasopra

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am not mad with respect to this issue.

Neither am I.

I think its absolutely disgusting though that the LGB Alliance tried to smear the work of Belong To and destroy its national anti bullying campaign. They are really showing they hate trans people and dont even care about LGB people either. Attacking an anti bullying campaign. Shameful.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/17/lgb-alliance-ireland-belong-to-stand-up-bullying-campaign-department-education-backlash/

mohawk

So let me get this straight in other countries they are now reevaluating affirmative care with respect to children but women in Ireland who question it are not deserving of political representation.

Wouldn’t it be great to have a women’s council that actually represents women’s issues, because we clearly don’t have them.

Who in this scenario is intolerant to the beliefs of others? Is it perhaps those who are trying to silence others.

Gervais08

mohawk wrote: »

So let me get this straight in other countries they are now reevaluating affirmative care with respect to children but women in Ireland who question it are not deserving of political representation.

Wouldn’t it be great to have a women’s council that actually represents women’s issues, because we clearly don’t have them.

Who in this scenario is intolerant to the beliefs of others? Is it perhaps those who are trying to silence others.

Precisely that yes.

JasonStatham

Maybe a third unisex toilet would be the job. If you're a bloke go to the man's jacks, women to women's toilet and everything else to the unisex toilet. There, job done. /Close thread.

Gruffalux

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think its absolutely disgusting though that the LGB Alliance tried to smear the work of Belong To and destroy its national anti bullying campaign. They are really showing they hate trans people and dont even care about LGB people either. Attacking an anti bullying campaign. Shameful.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/17/lgb-alliance-ireland-belong-to-stand-up-bullying-campaign-department-education-backlash/

I am not a member of LGB Alliance, but as far as I know gay people are members. I also have not heard of BelongTo's school campaign. To see what they are about I looked at their website - this is one of the pieces of advice given to a parent of trans children

Recognise that this is not something that could have been changed, and that gender identity is hard wired from birth.

Gender identity is hard-wired from birth? That is not scientific. The fact that sex is not considered hard-wired from birth though....


I looked at that Pink News article and at the screenshots of the letter linked.
Here are some of my observations, though I do not know what is in the BelongTo school's pack. Just going by what is said to be contained.

LGB Alliance appears to be mainly concerned with safe guarding issues.

Reference to suicide.
That should be done only in a very limited careful manner. Polly Carmichael, long time Director of GIDS Tavistock has publicly stated that gender diverse children show no greater risk of suicide than the children generally treated and rates of self-harm, distress and suicidal ideation are similar to CAMHS figures overall. The subject of suicide should not be included in an information pack to school children.

Stereotypes.
Boys who wear makeup or dresses, or girls who like short hair might really be the opposite sex. This is ludicrous. They are simply non-conforming. That transgender would be the go to position encouraged is not useful. Especially given the affirmation approach will ruin their health.

The letter says the guidelines contain 47 mentions of the word trans, 8 mentions of gay, 4 of lesbian and 0 of homosexual. That seems very odd and unbalanced. Also perhaps related to the fact that homosexual is becoming a word that is unacceptable as it implies attraction is SEX based.

Keeping secrets encouraged. Make online contact. Don't tell parents. Could be treated as socially transitioned in school without parents knowledge. These are all big safeguarding red lights.

Guidance says trans identifying students must be allowed use the private facilities according to preferred gender identity, including dormitories. This leaves open safe guarding issues when all that is required is self identification.

If the school guidelines do not include reference to the changing medical perspectives on the affirmation protocol then it is not suitable to be presented in schools.

So, overall, I would like to know more about what is actually presented by external organisations as fact to schoolchildren.

Sir Oxman

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

So the national womens council and Amnesty are asking politicians not to represent anyone who doesn't agree with self ID.

This is laughable. Women need to break away from the women's groups? Actually insane.

The laughable thing is the vast majority of women for example, are not members of the NWCI and are more than likely never asked their opinion by the great and good of the NWCI.
The NWCI has done some sterling work defending and inproving women's rights for sure but THIS is not what they are meant to be about, surely? Silencing other women???
The same with Amnesty - a human rights defender publicly demanding that our political and media estates deny what these UNrepresentative and UNelected lobby groups themselves have.
The exact same goes for the so-called representatives of lesbians, gay men and bisexuals.
They do not represent me (especially since their uncritical alignment with critical theory) so therefore I must be silenced and for added fun I get to be called 'far-right', 'a bigot', 'causing harm & division', 'standing against women's rights', 'standing against MY OWN rights' and 'standing against equality'

A human rights lobby group publicly calling for the denial of actual human rights (and not a made up one either)
A lobby group ostensibly for women publicly calling for the denial of the rights of fellow women to organise and lobby.
An LGB lobby group completely taken over by critical queer/identity theorists and with that, denigrating and abusing and bullying people within that community who do not agree with them. Casting out people if you will, just like...then

Open your eyes, public.

Sir Oxman

Gatling wrote: »

The rights of women will be Decided by a cohort of men self identifying as female

Not a great start for the newly co-opted member of the NWCI board - a trans woman.
Or maybe, it's actually a great start for them?

Gervais08

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Not a great start for the newly co-opted member of the NWCI board - a trans woman.
Or maybe, it's actually a great start for them?

It’s a great start for him, misogynist plan going like a dream.

Wibbs

Gruffalux wrote: »

Gender identity is hard-wired from birth? That is not scientific.

Never mind confused as those on the same side of identity politic have been claiming for years that gender is a social construct. Schroedinger's gender. I do wish they'd make up their minds. Though again like the nouveau religionists they are it's down to interpretation, when it suits.


My personal take is gender is largely hard wired, bolstered by social constructs, but those constructs themselves spring from and are reinforced by that hard wiring.