Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Annasopra

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am not a member of LGB Alliance, but as far as I know gay people are members. I also have not heard of BelongTo's school campaign. To see what they are about I looked at their website - this is one of the pieces of advice given to a parent of trans children


Gender identity is hard-wired from birth? That is not scientific. The fact that sex is not considered hard-wired from birth though....


I looked at that Pink News article and at the screenshots of the letter linked.
Here are some of my observations, though I do not know what is in the BelongTo school's pack. Just going by what is said to be contained.

LGB Alliance appears to be mainly concerned with safe guarding issues.

Reference to suicide.
That should be done only in a very limited careful manner. Polly Carmichael, long time Director of GIDS Tavistock has publicly stated that gender diverse children show no greater risk of suicide than the children generally treated and rates of self-harm, distress and suicidal ideation are similar to CAMHS figures overall. The subject of suicide should not be included in an information pack to school children.

Stereotypes.
Boys who wear makeup or dresses, or girls who like short hair might really be the opposite sex. This is ludicrous. They are simply non-conforming. That transgender would be the go to position encouraged is not useful. Especially given the affirmation approach will ruin their health.

The letter says the guidelines contain 47 mentions of the word trans, 8 mentions of gay, 4 of lesbian and 0 of homosexual. That seems very odd and unbalanced. Also perhaps related to the fact that homosexual is becoming a word that is unacceptable as it implies attraction is SEX based.

Keeping secrets encouraged. Make online contact. Don't tell parents. Could be treated as socially transitioned in school without parents knowledge. These are all big safeguarding red lights.

Guidance says trans identifying students must be allowed use the private facilities according to preferred gender identity, including dormitories. This leaves open safe guarding issues when all that is required is self identification.

If the school guidelines do not include reference to the changing medical perspectives on the affirmation protocol then it is not suitable to be presented in schools.

So, overall, I would like to know more about what is actually presented by external organisations as fact to schoolchildren.

Nah

This is all about the lgb alliance hate shamefully attacking an anti bullying campaign. There are numerous groups with extensive expertise in safeguarding (the department of education, education trade unions, education patrons, national youth organisations, nationsl school organisations) that endorse and support the campaign. Safeguarding "concerns" are manufactured nonsense. If there were genuine safeguarding concerns here there would be absolutely no bloody way you would get the Dept of Education, National Youth Council of Ireland, Youth Work Ireland, National Parents Council, ASTI, TUI endorsing it.

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nah

This is all about the lgb alliance hate shamefully attacking an anti bullying campaign.

Yet the anti bullying campaign main concern seems to be more about trans than all LGBT issues,

Why would that be

Gruffalux

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nah

This is all about the lgb alliance hate shamefully attacking an anti bullying campaign. There are numerous groups with extensive expertise in safeguarding (the department of education, education trade unions, education patrons, national youth organisations, nationsl school organisations) that endorse and support the campaign. Safeguarding "concerns" are manufactured nonsense. If there were genuine safeguarding concerns here there would be absolutely no bloody way you would get the Dept of Education, National Youth Council of Ireland, Youth Work Ireland, National Parents Council, ASTI, TUI endorsing it.

I would never have imagined Amnesty and NCWI calling for women with different views to be denied media and political representation and called the FAR RIGHT...but there we go.

Sir Oxman

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am not a member of LGB Alliance, but as far as I know gay people are members. I also have not heard of BelongTo's school campaign. To see what they are about I looked at their website - this is one of the pieces of advice given to a parent of trans children


Gender identity is hard-wired from birth? That is not scientific. The fact that sex is not considered hard-wired from birth though....


I looked at that Pink News article and at the screenshots of the letter linked.
Here are some of my observations, though I do not know what is in the BelongTo school's pack. Just going by what is said to be contained.

LGB Alliance appears to be mainly concerned with safe guarding issues.

Reference to suicide.
That should be done only in a very limited careful manner. Polly Carmichael, long time Director of GIDS Tavistock has publicly stated that gender diverse children show no greater risk of suicide than the children generally treated and rates of self-harm, distress and suicidal ideation are similar to CAMHS figures overall. The subject of suicide should not be included in an information pack to school children.

Stereotypes.
Boys who wear makeup or dresses, or girls who like short hair might really be the opposite sex. This is ludicrous. They are simply non-conforming. That transgender would be the go to position encouraged is not useful. Especially given the affirmation approach will ruin their health.

The letter says the guidelines contain 47 mentions of the word trans, 8 mentions of gay, 4 of lesbian and 0 of homosexual. That seems very odd and unbalanced. Also perhaps related to the fact that homosexual is becoming a word that is unacceptable as it implies attraction is SEX based.

Keeping secrets encouraged. Make online contact. Don't tell parents. Could be treated as socially transitioned in school without parents knowledge. These are all big safeguarding red lights.

Guidance says trans identifying students must be allowed use the private facilities according to preferred gender identity, including dormitories. This leaves open safe guarding issues when all that is required is self identification.

If the school guidelines do not include reference to the changing medical perspectives on the affirmation protocol then it is not suitable to be presented in schools.

So, overall, I would like to know more about what is actually presented by external organisations as fact to schoolchildren.

The minute you see someone link to Pink 'News' is a major warning that it is a link to propganada crap.
I think most sane and logical people can agree that any educational materials esp. in regards to sex ed and anti-bullying rolled out to schools should be completely factual and not a whiff of political ideological whackery should be sniffed.

Sir Oxman

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nah

This is all about the lgb alliance hate shamefully attacking an anti bullying campaign. There are numerous groups with extensive expertise in safeguarding (the department of education, education trade unions, education patrons, national youth organisations, nationsl school organisations) that endorse and support the campaign. Safeguarding "concerns" are manufactured nonsense. If there were genuine safeguarding concerns here there would be absolutely no bloody way you would get the Dept of Education, National Youth Council of Ireland, Youth Work Ireland, National Parents Council, ASTI, TUI endorsing it.

The 'open your eyes, public' appeal I made is inclusive of the aul allies, Joey.

Annasopra

Gruffalux wrote: »

I would never have imagined Amnesty and NCWI calling for women with different views to be denied media and political representation and called the FAR RIGHT...but there we go.

Indeed. Well when a Hate group attacks an anti bullying campaign its clear what their point there is.

Baggly

Gervais08 wrote: »

It’s a great start for him, misogynist plan going like a dream.

Mod

You are done in this thread. Don't post here again.

DeadHand

That letter is breathtaking.

To demand that people be stripped of their democratic rights for disagreeing with an ideology which is still very new, unproven, anti scientific and demands, for the vast majority of us, we deny all of our education, our lived experience and our basest human instincts. Breathtaking.

I had hoped never to see anything so Soviet in this (formerly?) moderate, temperate and humane little Republic of ours.

We’re being pulled down a very dark path as a people by the runaway juggernaut of bow-your-head-or-suffer progressivism, driven by a tiny elite of extremists who have become empowered by the cowardice and apathy of a cowed broader society.

Sir Oxman

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Indeed. Well when a Hate group attacks an anti bullying campaign its clear what their point there is.

Were the supposed 'hate group' attacking or criticising unproven political theory within the materials or suggesting amendments?
To be taken even slightly seriously, I would suggest posting primary sources rather than an indisputably propgandised clickbait online rag. You know it, I know it.

Mad_maxx

Gruffalux wrote: »

I would never have imagined Amnesty and NCWI calling for women with different views to be denied media and political representation and called the FAR RIGHT...but there we go.

if you followed the utterings of either this past number of years , it shouldnt surprise you all that much

ingalway

mohawk wrote: »

So let me get this straight in other countries they are now reevaluating affirmative care with respect to children but women in Ireland who question it are not deserving of political representation.

Wouldn’t it be great to have a women’s council that actually represents women’s issues, because we clearly don’t have them.

Who in this scenario is intolerant to the beliefs of others? Is it perhaps those who are trying to silence others.

Please don't forget Colm O'Gorman and Amnesty's role in this also.

The new priests, same as the old priests:
https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-new-priests-same-as-the-old-priests?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter

Eric Cartman

Dante7 wrote: »

Amnesty and NWCI now seek to remove political representation from women who disagree with them. This will not end well for them.

https://twitter.com/JinnysJoe/status/1329847671063015424?s=20

Why does i also only specify trans women , not trans men. The transgender activism lobby seems very skewed to one side of the aisle

Eric Cartman

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nah

This is all about the lgb alliance hate shamefully attacking an anti bullying campaign. There are numerous groups with extensive expertise in safeguarding (the department of education, education trade unions, education patrons, national youth organisations, nationsl school organisations) that endorse and support the campaign. Safeguarding "concerns" are manufactured nonsense. If there were genuine safeguarding concerns here there would be absolutely no bloody way you would get the Dept of Education, National Youth Council of Ireland, Youth Work Ireland, National Parents Council, ASTI, TUI endorsing it.

Why do you believe there is a massive backlash against trans rights from within the lgb community (especially the L part)

Gatling

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Why does i also only specify trans women , not trans men. The transgender activism lobby seems very skewed to one side of the aisle

Not gone unnoticed in this discussion .

ExMachina1000

You can call yourself whatever you so wish as long as it makes you happy.

Dont expect everyone else to go along with it though.

As for sports etc I don't care. I won't be competing against you so do whatever you like.

Easy

Dante7

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nah

This is all about the lgb alliance hate shamefully attacking an anti bullying campaign. There are numerous groups with extensive expertise in safeguarding (the department of education, education trade unions, education patrons, national youth organisations, nationsl school organisations) that endorse and support the campaign. Safeguarding "concerns" are manufactured nonsense. If there were genuine safeguarding concerns here there would be absolutely no bloody way you would get the Dept of Education, National Youth Council of Ireland, Youth Work Ireland, National Parents Council, ASTI, TUI endorsing it.

BelongTo have become a dangerous activist group that have been captured by trans ideology. In their literature to teachers, among other things, they define lesbians as "mainly attracted to other women", and also insidiously instruct teachers not to "out" trans children to their parents, even if the parents ask the teacher directly. This is illegal and has nothing to do with anti-bullying and has everything to do with grooming.

https://twitter.com/xx_gender/status/1328831723203866625?s=20

Rodin

Dante7 wrote: »

This is because Sara Philips, a transwoman, has been appointed to the National Women's Council of Ireland. That letter has all the hallmarks of being drafted by a male trans activist.

Has the NWCI ever had a male leader before this?

jam_mac_jam

Grooming may not be the most appropriate word to use due to it's association with paedophilia.

I know it's not suggesting that above but it's not correct in that context because of what it has come to mean.

Gruffalux

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Grooming may not be the most appropriate word to use due to it's association with paedophilia.

I know it's not suggesting that above but it's not correct in that context because of what it has come to mean.

Coaching is probably the intended meaning. I had a look through that thread. It is informative re child protection policies that have been breached by the guidelines.

jam_mac_jam

Gruffalux wrote: »

Coaching is probably the intended meaning. I had a look through that thread. It is informative re child protection policies that have been breached by the guidelines.

Yep coaching is a better word and more accurate to what's being described.

Dante7

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Grooming may not be the most appropriate word to use due to it's association with paedophilia.

I know it's not suggesting that above but it's not correct in that context because of what it has come to mean.

Nah, it's grooming. Encouraging children to not confide in their parents, but instead trust some other adult behind the parent's back and against the parent's wishes, resulting in situations where children can have their bodies and minds irreversibly damaged all while being told "shush, don't tell your Mammy and Daddy, they wouldn't understand".

Gatling

Dante7 wrote: »

Nah, it's grooming. Encouraging children to not confide in their parents, but instead trust some other adult behind the parent's back and against the parent's wishes, resulting in situations where children can have their bodies and minds irreversibly damaged all while being told "shush, don't tell your Mammy and Daddy, they wouldn't understand".

This is a massive point ,at no stage should any child be told to keep secrets by external individuals ,
It's absolutely grooming and trying to force a totally secure echo chamber that cannot be challenged under any circumstances .

It's disgusting and reprehensible

One eyed Jack

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Were the supposed 'hate group' attacking or criticising unproven political theory within the materials or suggesting amendments?
To be taken even slightly seriously, I would suggest posting primary sources rather than an indisputably propgandised clickbait online rag. You know it, I know it.

That’s a fair point, but I doubt it would do anything to counter the propaganda being promoted by the people behind “LGB Alliance” who have at this stage outed themselves as being nothing more than the shower of concern trolls they are. Primary source for the BelongTo pack that is sent to Principals in Irish Primary Schools -


All together now - An Educational Awareness Programme on Homophobic and Transphobic Bullying in Primary Schools piloted in 2016


And the advisory group consisted of -


This pilot project was a partnership between BeLonG To Youth Services and St. Patrick’s College. It was supported by an Advisory Group whose members included: Irish National Teachers Organisation (INTO); INTO-LGBT Teachers’ Group; Irish Primary Principals Network; National Parents’ Council; Catholic Primary School Management Association; Professional Development Service for Teachers (PDST) (Department of Education & Skills) , Educate Together; Community National Schools-Dublin Dun Laoghaire; Church of Ireland - Board of Education; GLEN (Gay & Lesbian Equality Network; Transgender Equality Network Ireland (TENI) and the Marino Institute.


The updated anti-bullying policies from the DES that they refer to in the literature are here -


Anti-Bullying Procedures for Primary and Post-Primary Schools

Dante7 wrote: »

BelongTo have become a dangerous activist group that have been captured by trans ideology. In their literature to teachers, among other things, they define lesbians as "mainly attracted to other women", and also insidiously instruct teachers not to "out" trans children to their parents, even if the parents ask the teacher directly. This is illegal and has nothing to do with anti-bullying and has everything to do with grooming.

Stall the ball there Dante. Their advice to adults is in line with Children First guidelines, and has nothing to do with grooming. Grooming in Irish Law means communicating with a child for the purposes of sexual exploitation, like this for example -


Man jailed for abusing and ‘prostituting’ teenage girl’


What you’re referring to, or rather what that misleading tweet is referring to, does not constitute grooming, doesn’t even come close. It’s part of guidelines in which the aim is to protect children. There are other parts of the Children First guidelines I disagree with in relation to what should or shouldn’t be disclosed to parents, but that particular guideline relates specifically to adults being advised not to “out” children to their parents. That’s not grooming, nor does it lead to grooming, and in any circumstances where a person wishes to engage in grooming a child or children for the purposes of sexual exploitation, they’re not going to be too fussed about child safety guidelines!

To go back to the schools thing for a minute, one thing I do object to is the so-called “Objective Sex Education Bill”, not simply because of what I see as it’s particular political bent which I find offensive, but also because of the idea that they would try and mandate that it be provided in schools regardless of the characteristic spirit of the school -


An Act to guarantee the right of students to receive factual and objective relationships and sexuality education without regard to the characteristic spirit of the school

Annasopra

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Why do you believe there is a massive backlash against trans rights from within the lgb community (especially the L part)

I don't believe that. A few twitter accounts is not a massive backlash at all.

Dante7

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I don't believe that. A few twitter accounts is not a massive backlash at all.

Scientologists also believe that there is no dissent. Sure how could there be? Everyone they speak to wholeheartedly agrees with their ideology.

km991148

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I don't believe that. A few twitter accounts is not a massive backlash at all.

As is often the case, it depends on what media bubble you live in.

statesaver

Dante7 wrote: »

BelongTo have become a dangerous activist group that have been captured by trans ideology. In their literature to teachers, among other things, they define lesbians as "mainly attracted to other women", and also insidiously instruct teachers not to "out" trans children to their parents, even if the parents ask the teacher directly. This is illegal and has nothing to do with anti-bullying and has everything to do with grooming.

If true that is extremely dangerous.
Telling lesbians ' yes you are lesbian, you're mainly attracted to women but here's a lady dick to suck and if you don't you're a bigot '.

Sounds very rapey.

jam_mac_jam

statesaver wrote: »

If true that is extremely dangerous.
Telling lesbians ' yes you are lesbian, you're mainly attracted to women but here's a lady dick to suck and if you don't you're a bigot '.

Sounds very rapey.

Lets just redefine what a lesbian is. I'm sure they won't mind.

Jesus, can everyone just leave lesbians alone.

Rodin

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Lets just redefine what a lesbian is. I'm sure they won't mind.

Jesus, can everyone just leave lesbians alone.

A lesbian is a female who is attracted to other females.
Easy.

Dante7

statesaver wrote: »

If true that is extremely dangerous.
Telling lesbians ' yes you are lesbian, you're mainly attracted to women but here's a lady dick to suck and if you don't you're a bigot '.

Sounds very rapey.

It's true.

https://twitter.com/xx_gender/status/1328984874661900288?s=20