Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

One eyed Jack

Frankie Machine wrote: »

What parent will be reassured by the words of anyone whom they know to be operating under such guidelines ?

The absolute self-centredness of this approach is an outrageous undermining of parents.

They’re called Child First guidelines, not Parent First guidelines, and every organisation I’m aware of that works with children in Ireland adheres to them. The point is that children are protected, and their parents are reassured that their children are protected by persons in authority whom the guidelines apply to. It’s the opposite of self-centred, and operates on the basis of putting the child’s welfare and safety first.

Gatling wrote: »

But that's exactly what the above actually does .

Ensure you use whatever pronouns they (the child in question) wish you to use

So Paul came to school as a he now we're calling him she ,hi mom this is Teacher A can you come in for a chat about your child ,she is in a bit of bother , but I have a he not a she ,she has gotten in to trouble ,and we need to discuss she .

Oops

I’ve corrected your statement to what it actually says, essentially that when talking to the child’s parents, use whatever pronouns the child wishes you to use. In the case above it would mean referring to Paul as ‘him’ if that’s how Paul wishes to be referred to so you don’t out him to his parents.

Gruffalux

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'll never understand why the **** people get so fixated on pronouns. It's like you'e trying to create an issue.

I don't know why people fixate on pronouns either. But on the BelongTo website under a tab called Young People -> Advice -> Understanding Transgender -> How do I know if I am Transgender, the advice says

When a wrong pronoun is used to describe you, it may also trigger discomfort.

Resilience is something useful we should encourage in our youth. Not to be triggered at something like stupid pronouns.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Gruffalux wrote: »

I don't know why people fixate on pronouns either. But on the BelongTo website under a tab called Young People -> Advice -> Understanding Transgender -> How do I know if I am Transgender, the advice says



Resilience is something useful we should encourage in our youth. Not to be triggered at something like stupid pronouns.

... and yet hee ae people getting triggered when asked to use pronouns that take into account someone's transition!

(Although I agee with you about the resilience)

Gruffalux

One eyed Jack wrote: »

In the case above it would mean referring to Paul as ‘him’ if that’s how Paul wishes to be referred to so you don’t out him to his parents.

Can you hear yourself? You are defending random unrelated adults who have temporary care-giving duties with respect to one's child not ''outing'' the child to the child's actual parents. If a child is socially transitioned to a different gender identity at school the parents should know about it. How is this even considered not correct procedure?

Eric Cartman

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I don't believe that. A few twitter accounts is not a massive backlash at all.

So the glb group you were complaining about, get the L out etc... are just a few twitter accounts and transwomen face no backlash at all and everyones getting on great, brilliant to know

Gruffalux

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... and yet hee ae people getting triggered when asked to use pronouns that take into account someone's transition!

(Although I agee with you about the resilience)

If we raise children to depend on the affirmation of other people for their self value, including pronouns, then we are doing them no service. People will respond instinctively to others. Life is going to be frigging hard for a kid who needs everyone to correctly address them all the time. Better to teach the kid to not give a damn.

Wibbs

ingalway wrote: »

The tide is turning
https://twitter.com/Ire_LGBAlliance

Fair bloody play.

In recent years, a dogmatic entry requirement has seeped into the LGBTQIAAPK2S+ movement; you must accept the tenets of radical gender identity ideology, or face public shaming and vilification.

Nailed it. That Gay folks of all people are getting crap from these groups is unreal.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

Resilience is something useful we should encourage in our youth. Not to be triggered at something like stupid pronouns.

Sure it’s not like there aren’t a whole bunch of adults who get their knickers in a bunch because someone isn’t using their words, or they have an attack of the vapours at the sight of anything which offends their delicate sensibilities. Instead of encouraging resilience, there are plenty of people here arguing that other people should conform to their ideals so as not to offend their sensitivities.

I’m all for encouraging resilience, but it’s a trite phrase that can quickly come back to bite it’s orator in the arse.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

Can you hear yourself? You are defending random unrelated adults who have temporary care-giving duties with respect to one's child not ''outing'' the child to the child's actual parents. If a child is socially transitioned to a different gender identity at school the parents should know about it. How is this even considered not correct procedure?

It’s like you’re determined to deliberately ignore context. The guidelines also suggest encouraging the child’s parents to talk to their child.

Gatling

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

What is?

I made a general comment about pronouns, not a written article.

I don't care for pronouns preferred or otherwise I'll leave that nugget to others to fight over

Frankie Machine

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No, I think it's trying to affirm an identity.

Do you think the insistence of pronouns is trying to create an issue?

The insistence on pronouns is an issue, QED.

The issue being that the striving by some (eg those who wish to be called 'she') to affirm an identity, involves them in stealing and undermining the identity of some others (eg those who are 'she').

The fact that it is a battleground demonstrates it's importance to the protagonists.

Since you've patently taken sides, I don't think we need worry that the perplexity you expressed is heartfelt.

Gruffalux

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Sure it’s not like there aren’t a whole bunch of adults who get their knickers in a bunch because someone isn’t using their words, or they have an attack of the vapours at the sight of anything which offends their delicate sensibilities. Instead of encouraging resilience, there are plenty of people here arguing that other people should conform to their ideals so as not to offend their sensitivities.

I’m all for encouraging resilience, but it’s a trite phrase that can quickly come back to bite it’s orator in the arse.

I don't want anyone to conform to any of my ''ideals''. I don't care what people do as adults as long as no one else is harmed. I am just here for to defend science and reality against ideology. As the letter signed by NCWI and Amnesty says I am a ''far right'' ''defender of biology''. Put me on the list.

Gruffalux

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s like you’re determined to deliberately ignore context. The guidelines also suggest encouraging the child’s parents to talk to their child.

And how are the parent's supposed to know if the child and the school and the other care givers are keeping it secret from them? And the kid is getting all their info online in enclaves where the glitter family are joyously sharing their mastectomy scars and where to procure T illegally online?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Gruffalux wrote: »

If we raise children to depend on the affirmation of other people for their self value, including pronouns, then we are doing them no service. People will respond instinctively to others. Life is going to be frigging hard for a kid who needs everyone to correctly address them all the time. Better to teach the kid to not give a damn.

We raise children that way anyway. Inentionally via education - for example, a perceived important on nationality as affirmation (if someone insists on calling us British because we were once part of the UK, how do you think that ends?) and unintentionally via the worship of celebities or sports stars and the need to follow or look like someone else or live up to someone else's standards?

It's not a case of "correct address" it's a case of inentionally doing it wrong. If I deliberally call someone "Robert" when the repetedly ask me to call them "Bob" am I being a dick or are they being overly sensitive?

Yes, life is hard - but why would someone get off on going out of their way to intentionally make it harder?

Which brings me back to my original question: how hard can it be to not get fixated on pronouns?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Frankie Machine wrote: »

The insistence on pronouns is an issue, QED.

The issue being that the striving by some (eg those who wish to be called 'she') to affirm an identity, involves them in stealing and undermining the identity of some others (eg those who are 'she').

The fact that it is a battleground demonstrates it's importance to the protagonists.

Since you've patently taken sides, I don't think we need worry that the perplexity you expressed is heartfelt.

There ae no "sides"! And your answer here sounds like confirmation bias, to be honest. You can't "steal" something from someone and still leave the other person with the same identity!

Also, not eveyr transition goes male to female.

Gruffalux

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We raise children that way anyway. Inentionally via education - for example, a perceived important on nationality as affirmation (if someone insists on calling us British because we were once part of the UK, how do you think that ends?) and unintentionally via the worship of celebities or sports stars and the need to follow or look like someone else.

It's not a case of "correct address" it's a case of inentionally doing it wrong. If I deliberally call someone "Robert" when the repetedly ask me to call them "Bob" am I being a dick or are they being overly sensitive?

Yes, life is hard - but why would someone get off on going out of their way to intentionally make it harder?

Which brings me back to my original question: how hard can it be to not get fixated on pronouns?

I am not talking about people intentionally refusing to use pronouns, that would be impolite.
But as the kid navigates the world other people are going to respond to them instinctively as per visual cues and to coach a child that this may ''trigger discomfort'' is anti-resilience training. It would be way better to coach the child to not give a damn and be themselves and be wise and cheerful.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am not talking about people intentionally refusing to use pronouns, that would be impolite.
But as the kid navigates the world other people are going to respond to them instinctively as per visual cues and to coach a child that this may ''trigger discomfort'' is anti-resilience training. It would be way better to coach the child to not give a damn and be themselves and be wise and cheerful.

True enough. The trans people I know have no problem with accidents and mistakes - **** happens and they are vey well used to and prepared for it. And I believe that opinion is very representative of the community.

As for the "triggering discomfort" argument - are we sure this isn't the overenthusiastic woke crowd again? (Not sayign it is, but it sounds like them)

Frankie Machine

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

There ae no "sides"!

I doubt you will get unanimity for that exuberant claim.

And your answer here sounds like confirmation bias, to be honest. You can't "steal" something from someone and still leave the other person with the same identity!

I said 'stealing and undermining'.

It certainly diminishes an adult human female's identity as a woman to insist that she is not in fact so, but is rather a mere 'cervix haver', a 'chest feeder', a 'menstruator'.

This is the vulgarity that is seemingly required by some in 'affirming an identity' as you put it. But as some others would put it, 'assuming an identity'.

Also, not eveyr transition goes male to female.

Indeed. I repeat what I already said, with added emphasis -

The issue being that the striving by some (eg those who wish to be called 'she') to affirm an identity, involves them in stealing and undermining the identity of some others (eg those who are 'she').

Gruffalux

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

True enough. The trans people I know have no problem with accidents and mistakes - **** happens and they are vey well used to and prepared for it. And I believe that opinion is very representative of the community.

As for the "triggering discomfort" argument - are we sure this isn't the overenthusiastic woke crowd again? (Not sayign it is, but it sounds like them)

The triggering discomfort phrase I took directly from the BelongTo website in the secton on advice to young people.

Annasopra

Frankie Machine wrote: »

I hope you can now see that such abuse of 'in loco parentis', actually is indeed grooming.

No. That is absolutely not abuse.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Frankie Machine wrote: »

I doubt you will get unanimity for that exuberant claim.



I said 'stealing and undermining'.

It certainly diminishes an adult human female's identity as a woman to insist that she is not in fact so, but is rather a mere 'cervix haver', a 'chest feeder', a 'menstruator'.

This is the vulgarity that is seemingly required by some in 'affirming an identity' as you put it. But as some others would put it, 'assuming an identity'.



Indeed. I repeat what I already said, with added emphasis -

I'd argue that the person transitioning pretty much knows their identity beforehand, and that YOU are the one stealing/undermining it be refusing to accept them. They know who they are better than you do.

Gatling

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'd argue that the person transitioning pretty much knows their identity beforehand

But do they .

There has been numerous reports of many people who transition then later detransision and revert back to their original gender ,

That would suggest people don't actually know themselves what their identity is

Frankie Machine

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'd argue that the person transitioning pretty much knows their identity beforehand, and that YOU are the one stealing/undermining it be refusing to accept them. They know who they are better than you do.

Without wanting to be offensive to anyone, I'd argue that I know what a woman is.

Your unwarranted observation about my 'refusing to accept' anyone, will be ignored as of now.


.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

I don't want anyone to conform to any of my ''ideals''. I don't care what people do as adults as long as no one else is harmed. I am just here for to defend science and reality against ideology. As the letter signed by NCWI and Amnesty says I am a ''far right'' ''defender of biology''. Put me on the list.

Oh come on now, you’ve already suggested that women, mothers, who don’t conform to your ideals for their children must be experiencing some form of munchausens? I don’t know what that was, but it certainly wasn’t defending biology, science or reality. I’m certain it was just taking a swipe at women who don’t share your ideas for their children. It’s something I’ve come across a lot in discussions where adults want to promote their own ideas - parents who don’t share their ideas are causing harm to their own children. It’s the epitome of the “won’t someone think of the children” moral panic, until those same children become adults themselves, then “I don’t care what people do as adults as long as no one else is harmed”. Your own proclamation puts you at the centre of everything as though everyone should adhere to your standards.

I don’t agree with the whole idea of permitting boys to wear dresses for example, and were it not for the fact that I developed that resilience you spoke of earlier, my mother would have delighted in having me wear a dress in spite of my continued insistence that I didn’t want to, because she too was all about “who cares?” I cared, a lot, as it happens, and that was before the fact that I knew plenty of other people cared too, because I looked ridiculous. Think Harry Styles recent cover shoot for Vogue :pac: I wouldn’t suggest my mother experienced munchausens, or that she was a woman ahead of her time, she just had some funky ideas! I didn’t mention it until now because the broader discussion is more important, but it’s one thing that bugs the hell out of me is this idea of encouraging young boys to think it’s socially acceptable to behave like young girls and pretend that nobody cares. It’s all cutsie when they’re children, but when they’re adults and they’re suddenly being told by you that no, they can’t enter the ladies toilets, not even wearing a dress - they’ve been set up to fail!

I’m not going to read too much into your “defending science and reality” as I initially had no intention of being involved in what has so far been a repetition of the old thread, but LGB Alliance outdid themselves in launching an attack on BelongTo, an organisation which I know for a fact have a long history of working within Irish schools and other youth organisations. LGB Alliance must have imagined that School Boards of Management in Irish Schools (the vast majority of which are under the Patronage of the Catholic Church) and other stakeholders involved in education are utterly naive and wouldn’t see right through the LGB Alliance attempt to promote their own brand of bigotry and prejudice.

I’ve no love lost for the NWCI or Amnesty either, like many of my friends if they leaned any more to the left they’d fall over, but they didn’t say that anyone who don’t share their ideas lean to the far right, they said that people’s ideas align with the far right, which is a fair comment - those people who disagree with them may well consider themselves dyed in the wool lefties, but their ideas when it comes to people who are transgender are aligned with far right types.

Claiming to be a defender of biology, science or reality is pretty much meaningless as it doesn’t suggest anything about what you actually believe, and could easily be used (and often is used) by someone whose beliefs are the complete opposite of yours.

Frankie Machine

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. That is absolutely not abuse.

You will complacently assert that it is not, because it is conveniently presented as a 'guideline'.

volchitsa

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'd argue that the person transitioning pretty much knows their identity beforehand, and that YOU are the one stealing/undermining it be refusing to accept them. They know who they are better than you do.

Does this thinking also work for someone like Rachel Dolezal, who "knew" she was black, despite being white in society's eyes?

Rodin

ingalway wrote: »

The tide is turning
https://twitter.com/Ire_LGBAlliance

I never understood why the T got lumped in with LGB in the first place. Sexuality and gender identity are two completely different things.

Rodin

volchitsa wrote: »

Does this thinking also work for someone like Rachel Dolezal, who "knew" she was black, despite being white in society's eyes?

Identifying as a different race is equally as valid as identifying as a different gender. How dare some race-phobe say differently!

Rodin

Gruffalux wrote: »

I don't know why people fixate on pronouns either. But on the BelongTo website under a tab called Young People -> Advice -> Understanding Transgender -> How do I know if I am Transgender, the advice says



Resilience is something useful we should encourage in our youth. Not to be triggered at something like stupid pronouns.

Young people are not taught resilience. They're taught to indulge their anxiety and surrender to it and that makes them mentally weak.

Annasopra

Frankie Machine wrote: »

You will complacently assert that it is not, because it is conveniently presented as a 'guideline'.

A guideline that pretty much everyone with expertise on child safeguarding and practical experience of child safeguarding in this country agress with. National youth groups, National parents groups, National prinicipals groups, National teachers groups