Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

voldejoie

Trying to pick the most alarming part of the letter was difficult, but I think I've narrowed it down: "Let us say unequivocally that the statements of newly launched organisations that seek to defend biology or fight gender identity and expression do not represent the wider LGBTI+ community nor feminists in Ireland." (emphasis mine)

We are well and truly through the looking glass.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its hardly the "very same" legislation.

Appeal to the law is a logical fallacy.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-the-Law

It’s exactly the same legislation, and I didn’t appeal to the law either by way of making a moral argument as to whether it’s right or not, I’m pointing out the function of the GRA as it relates to equality legislation - before 2015 people who are transgender were not recognised in Irish law - now everyone is recognised equally in Irish law and cannot be unlawfully discriminated against on the basis of their gender identity.

volchitsa

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I made no such comparison, you made the comparison based upon what I said about people who argue that marriage equality should mean people should be able to marry their pets. The point I was making is that they’re two very different circumstances - just like racial identity and gender identity are two very different circumstances

Err, see that bit in bold? That's you making a comparison. And that's the comparison that is shocking: the legal difference between any two sets of people (race, gender, whatever) is not "just like" the legal differences between humans and other mammals.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

and that’s why people who argue in favour of self-identified gender identity don’t associate it with racial identity. You can draw the comparison, but it’s not one anyone made before you did.

But you just did. Again.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Except it would be nothing like that because Philip/Pips Bunce has been very open about their gender fluidity and non-binary status, whereas Rachel Dolezal was not at all open about the fact that she set out to defraud people. That’s why when an organisation I’ve never heard of before chooses to lavish awards on Pips/Philip Bunce in order to increase their public profile, Pips/Philip Bunce is not committing fraud, nor can they be found guilty of committing fraud. I honestly don’t care enough about the image of the organisation to argue that Pips/Philip doesn’t deserve to be chosen for an award - that’s entirely their own business. After reading this interview with them, Pips/Philip deserve all the positive recognition they get -


Inspirational Profile: Pips Bunce | Director, Credit Suisse

I certainly wouldn’t begrudge any organisation which chooses to recognise them as worthy of an award.

Worthy of an award, sure - but not worthy of an award destined to encourage women to enter business.

One eyed Jack

volchitsa wrote: »

Worthy of an award, sure - but not worthy of an award destined to encourage women to enter business.

The organisation making that determination saw fit to disagree with you.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

just like racial identity and gender identity are two very different circumstances, and that’s why people who argue in favour of self-identified gender identity don’t associate it with racial identity.


I certainly wouldn’t begrudge any organisation which chooses to recognise them as worthy of an award.

Why are they different self identified race and gender are the one concept litterally no difference what's so ever ,
Credit Suisse just happens to donate to various causes so they can offset their tax liability ,
By pushing this person who can't make up their mind what they are gender wise is there a word for part time or semi committed trans ,

They are both equally fraudulent as each other

volchitsa

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The organisation making that determination saw fit to disagree with you.

Yeah I know. I'm disagreeing with that. Just like I disagree with the NWCI saying that people who argue against biological sex are right wing extremists.

Like, why would you think that's a good argument?? Appeal to authority is also a logical fallacy. Like your earlier argument about the law.

One eyed Jack

volchitsa wrote: »

Yeah I know. I'm disagreeing with that. Just like I disagree with the NWCI saying that people who argue against biological sex are right wing extremists.

Like, why would you think that's a good argument?? Appeal to authority is also a logical fallacy. Like your earlier argument about the law.

They didn’t say that. This is exactly what they said -


We call on media, and politicians to no longer provide legitimate representation for those that share bigoted beliefs, that are aligned with far right ideologies and seek nothing but harm and division. These fringe internet accounts stand against affirmative medical care of transgender people, and they stand against the right to self-identification of transgender people in this country.


They’re referring to people whose beliefs align with what they consider are far right ideologies. They’re not wrong. I don’t agree with the entirety of their statement, but that’s the least thing I’d consider factually incorrect.

I didn’t appeal to authority either, I pointed out a fact - the organisation handing out the award has every right to determine who the award should go to. An appeal to authority is someone saying something like “as a woman, yada yada”, as though being a woman should lend weight to their argument, when the fact that they are a woman is irrelevant.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They didn’t say that. This is exactly what they said -


We call on media, and politicians to no longer provide legitimate representation for those that share bigoted beliefs, that are aligned with far right ideologies and seek nothing but harm and division.

That litterally Says anyone who doesn't agree with is a bigot ,it's got nothing to do with far right,
Only one side is calling for people to loose representation ,to lose Jobs and careers ,and burn books and to cancel people .

They might as well be say heil us or else and they scream far right is causing this .

Aleece2020

volchitsa wrote: »

Yeah I know. I'm disagreeing with that. Just like I disagree with the NWCI saying that people who argue against biological sex are right wing extremists.

You're right about that. It's not the far-right who are arguing against biological sex. From what I have seen, they're very anti-trans and use biological sex as their argument against it. So I fail to see how they could be arguing against their own argument? Lol?

The ironic part is that these same people who are screaming that biological sex doesn't exist are likely religiously wearing face-masks and decrying people who claim that COVID-19 is a hoax while calling them ignorant conspiracy theorists.

The whole COVID-19/virus part of biology is real, but physical sex isn't. Makes total sense. :pac:

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Perhaps you missed why I used the term

Reverse psychology nah .

Women , science and biology , truth are the victims here

jaxxx

Gatling wrote: »

Reverse psychology nah .

Women , science and biology are the victims here

+ common sense

Gatling

jaxxx wrote: »

+ common sense

Apparently that's far right ideology using words like that

jaxxx

Gatling wrote: »

Apparently that's far right ideology using words like that

Then they can kiss the far left side of my butt to balance the scales

Sir Oxman

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Essentially, nobody has to care about what you think you can or can’t be compelled to accept, and in the same way they don’t have to care about what you can’t compel them to accept either. However it’s what’s written in legislation to protect them from discrimination, is the very same legislation which protects you from discrimination. In the case of Maya Forstater, nobody compelled her to submit her albeit limited intelligence, nor her albeit limited experience to compelled speech legislation. She simply found out that equality legislation in the UK didn’t extend to protect her beliefs and therefore her employers could not be found guilty of discrimination against her for choosing not to renew her contract after she had been given multiple warnings from her employer to desist from her behaviour which was causing other employees to become uncomfortable. She chose to persist, under the misguided belief that she would continue to say what she liked and her employer would be compelled to accept her behaviour.

Boy did she get that wrong.

Again, https://mforstater.medium.com/five-myths-and-truths-about-my-case-8466d69f9489
Activist/tv 'celebrity' professors in English universities have had to publicly apologise and retract the exact same mistruths you have continually posted on this thread and the old thread about this employment tribunal case.
You have some good points but honestly get this bee out of your bonnet and await the appeal.

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Reverse psychology nah .

Women , science and biology , truth are the victims here

There’s no reverse psychology involved, you’re trying to portray yourself as a victim of an ideology you disagree with, but you’re not a victim, nor are women, nor is science, nor biology, nor truth. Irish society isn’t about to collapse at the seams because of the introduction of the GRA, same as Irish society didn’t collapse with the introduction of marriage equality or a whole host of ideologies or worldviews which were recognised in Irish Law which I disagree with.

People for the most part simply carried on about their business, as they have done since before the GRA was introduced off the back of a tiny minority of people having fought for it through the Irish Courts and it’s eventual introduction in Irish legislation. I don’t concern myself too much with the mud flinging on Twitter because I know that in just the same way as no one person can represent the opinions of a whole social group on here, neither are Amnesty or the NWCI representative of whole groups in Irish society. In real terms they too only represent the opinions of a tiny minority of people who share their ideals for Irish society, so I don’t suggest anyone get too animated as though Irish society is about to implode on itself any time soon.

Aleece2020

Gatling wrote: »

Women , science and biology , truth are the victims here

Men are victims in this as well. It's equally degrading to both men and women when someone attempts to undermine their biological sex and insist that it is something that is "fluid" and can abruptly change depending on the mood or feelings of someone else.

Gatling

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Again, https://mforstater.medium.com/five-myths-and-truths-about-my-case-8466d69f9489
Activist/tv 'celebrity' professors in English universities have had to publicly apologise and retract the exact same mistruths you have continually posted on this thread and the old thread about this employment tribunal case.
You have some good points but honestly get this bee out of your bonnet and await the appeal.

I was going to say WT but is anyone actually surprised with that case ,lie afte lie and false accusations made against this woman for what exactly ? Do they know why they are targeting her ,is it because she's a strong educated successful woman? .

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There’s no reverse psychology involved, you’re trying to portray yourself as a victim of an ideology you disagree with, but you’re not a victim, nor are women, nor is science, nor biology, nor truth. .

Lol I'm not a victim of anything or trying to be .

But women , science , biology , truth ,common sense are the victims of this utterly ridiculous ideology being pushed by a small cohort of men

IAMAMORON

Gatling wrote: »

Lol I'm not a victim of anything or trying to be .

But women , science , biology , truth ,common sense are the victims of this utterly ridiculous ideology being pushed by a small cohort of men

mostly utterly

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

mostly utterly

Rediculous ideology and it's amazing it's men who are pushing this agenda against women ,
It it a control issue or is it somekind of irrational belief women are getting something this cohort or men aren't getting ,so they want to push the idea that because they say they are a woman it's actually becomes reality,

One eyed Jack

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Again, https://mforstater.medium.com/five-myths-and-truths-about-my-case-8466d69f9489
Activist/tv 'celebrity' professors in English universities have had to publicly apologise and retract the exact same mistruths you have continually posted on this thread and the old thread about this employment tribunal case.
You have some good points but honestly get this bee out of your bonnet and await the appeal.

You’ve posted that before and it’s still Ms. Forstaters take on the case, easily countered by the facts surrounding the case, the evidence which was presented at the hearing, and the Judges opinion on the matter which was in question - her beliefs did not meet the standard required to be granted protection under equality legislation because they were determined to infringe on the human rights of others and were deemed to be unworthy of protection in a democratic society. I don’t need to wait for the outcome of an appeal to relate the facts of the case.

It’s unlikely her appeal will succeed, so it would be impossible in those circumstances to be able to determine that her former employers would be found liable as having discriminated against her on the basis of her beliefs, which was the argument she was making. She doesn’t get to make that determination.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They didn’t say that [attack biology]. This is exactly what they said -

We call on media, and politicians to no longer provide legitimate representation for those that share bigoted beliefs, that are aligned with far right ideologies and seek nothing but harm and division. These fringe internet accounts stand against affirmative medical care of transgender people, and they stand against the right to self-identification of transgender people in this country.
.

Who do you think you are fooling here, except yourself. They said :

Let us say unequivocally that the statements of newly launched organisations that seek to defend biology or fight gender identity and expression do not represent the wider LGBTI+ community nor feminists in Ireland.

And you yourself linked to that.

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Lol I'm not a victim of anything or trying to be .

But women , science , biology , truth ,common sense are the victims of this utterly ridiculous ideology being pushed by a small cohort of men

Ok you’ve cleared that up, you’re not including yourself in this then -

Gatling wrote: »

That litterally Says anyone who doesn't agree with is a bigot ,it's got nothing to do with far right,
Only one side is calling for people to loose representation ,to lose Jobs and careers ,and burn books and to cancel people .

They might as well be say heil us or else and they scream far right is causing this .

If you’re going to argue that the truth is a victim btw, at least be honest yourself - the ideology you’re referring to isn’t just being pushed by a small cohort of men. The cohort of women pushing the ideology outnumbers men by a significant proportion -


Feminist views on transgender topics

Planned Parenthood (second largest provider of hormone therapy for people who are transgender in the US) operates on an “informed consent” model, which means that the people who use their services don’t need an approval letter from a therapist.


Men in the US however are unlikely to use the services of Planned Parenthood and are more likely to source hormones from less reliable sources -


Nonprescription hormone use was most common among respondents assigned male at birth, and differed by race. Among all who had interest in taking hormones, those who were uninsured were less likely to use hormones in general compared with insured counterparts, which experts say could negatively impact mental and emotional health.


Also from the same article, you’ll see what actually matters most to the people who were surveyed (it wasn’t their pronouns) -


When respondents were asked to evaluate the most pressing issues affecting transgender people in the U.S., they listed insurance coverage as one of most important (among 44% of respondents). It ranked second only to violence against people who are transgender.


Underinsured Transgender Americans More Likely to Turn to Riskier Sources for Gender-Affirming Hormones


Link to the study the article is based upon (it makes Lisa Littmans effort look like a survey done by a primary school student) -


Insurance Coverage and Use of Hormones Among Transgender Respondents to a National Survey


Secondly, women aren’t victims of anything - women are, and will still be women regardless of any ideology.

Science, as with biology, can’t be a victim of anything.

Truth, well that really is a matter of opinion, and common sense is nothing more than the perception that your own opinions which make sense to you are common to everyone else. Here’s how that works in reality -


Are your findings ‘WEIRD’?

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who do you think you are fooling here, except yourself. They said :

And you yourself linked to that.

I know what they said, and the part you cited they are referring to groups such as LGB Alliance and their statements and how these newly formed groups do not represent the wider LGBTI+ community nor feminists in Ireland - the statements of newly launched organisations that seek to defend biology or fight gender identity and expression do not represent the wider LGBTI+ community nor feminists in Ireland.

They also refer to people who share bigoted beliefs that are aligned with far right ideologies separately, as in they don’t conflate the two like volchista did to claim that they were suggesting that volchista was on the far right. They acknowledge that while there are people who are lefties, they espouse views which are in alignment with the far right views which they see as bigoted. Otherwise they wouldn’t have mentioned them separately, but they know there are far more people than just the LGB Alliance who don’t share their views.

46 Long

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There’s no reverse psychology involved, you’re trying to portray yourself as a victim of an ideology you disagree with, but you’re not a victim, nor are women, nor is science, nor biology, nor truth. Irish society isn’t about to collapse at the seams because of the introduction of the GRA

I disagree. TRA ideology encroaches on the rest of society every single time that women are reduced to 'individuals with a cervix'. Every time we're told - with a straight face - that 'some men have vaginas and some women have a penis.'

It's a ridiculous house of cards concocted to appease an increasingly militant minority hell-bent on ignoring biological reality and twisting science to suit their ideology.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Secondly, women aren’t victims of anything - women are, and will still be women regardless of any ideology.

Women are still women but if men are women too ,
women aren't women they no longer have meaning if there is no biological or physicalogical difference ,all there is left is the word woman /women which a small cohort find offensive .

Women are Victims , science and biology and common sense are victims,a small cohort pushing this radical ideology ,far right isn't the issue here it this small cohort with delusions of 1939 Berlin ,let's get women they cause all of our problems ,it's a near mirror image

One eyed Jack

46 Long wrote: »

I disagree. TRA ideology encroaches on the rest of society every single time that women are reduced to 'individuals with a cervix'. Every time we're told - with a straight face - that 'some men have vaginas and some women have a penis.'

It's a ridiculous house of cards concocted to appease an increasingly militant minority hell-bent on ignoring biological reality and twisting science to suit their ideology.

Honestly I think you’re overstating the reality of the situation, just a tad mind. You know that they’re a minority, yet you’re claiming they’re encroaching on the rest of society every single time they say something which you know to be completely untrue and unreasonable and you don’t subscribe to the ideology, but you’re making out like they’re taking over society? They’re really not.

Gatling wrote: »

Women are still women but if men are women too ,
women aren't women they no longer have meaning if there is no biological or physicalogical difference ,all there is left is the word woman /women which a small cohort find offensive .

Women are Victims , science and biology and common sense are victims,a small cohort pushing this radical ideology ,far right isn't the issue here it this small cohort with delusions of 1939 Berlin ,let's get women they cause all of our problems ,it's a near mirror image

Nah, women are still women, language won’t change that. The vast majority of people in society will still understand what you mean when you’re referring to either women or men.

Again you’re just exaggerating to claim it’s anything like 1939 Berlin, it’s a tiny minority of people who are arguing either way, whereas in reality biology and science will remain as they are, not the victim of anyone or anything. Feminists are a much larger and more influential cohort than transgender ideologues, and they’re still complaining that they haven’t achieved equality in society, yet you’re concerned about an even smaller cohort of ideologues?

I’d argue it was a sign of your own struggle with reality tbh that you imagine Irish society is anything like 1939 Berlin.

Gruffalux

_Godot_ wrote: »

If by successful, do you mean if they pass or are beautiful? That surely shouldn't count really, as there are less than beautiful cis women too, and cis women with hairy faces too (pcos).

It doesn't count. There are absolutely lovely looking transwomen, handsome transmen and lots of transmen and transwomen who easily "pass". But also no one needs to pass or be attractive at all to be a transgendered person. They are themselves. Just like everyone.

And deserving of courtesy, rights, a political voice, affection, everything that anyone expects.

This does not mean that biological reality is changed. It cannot be. It just is.
Sex based rights and protections must be fully maintained in parallel with the rights and protections of trans people. There must be no erasure of the fact of sexual dimorphism in education to be nice. Old fashioned ideas of what constitutes gender identity or expression must not be ressurected as some kind of hard wiring in the species. Self ID as means of declaring gender raises rational safe guarding issues and these must be logically addressed. Children must go through their natal puberty as to do otherwise is too impactful on body and brain development. The social transitioning of young children by their parents must be interrogated as it is unnecessary and likely to be conditioning - leave kids alone.


On a different note Thomas Pringle and Paul Murphy and some labour TDs that I do not know yet have shared the letter calling for removal of media and political representation access to the 'far right aligned defenders of biology' and 'questioners of affirmation treatment' asking for people to sign it.

Necro

Mod:

Please don't quote or feed the trolls folks. Tidying up thread now

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

Sex based rights and protections must be fully maintained in parallel with the rights and protections of trans people.

There’s no such concept (apart from the fact you just invented the term) as “sex based rights”. There are human rights and women’s political and civil rights, and those same rights equally apply to people who are transgender.

Gruffalux wrote: »

There must be no erasure of the fact of sexual dimorphism in education to be nice. Old fashioned ideas of what constitutes gender identity or expression must not be ressurected as some kind of hard wiring in the species.

That ship has already set sail, but you may get one part of what you wish for at least, the new ideas for relationships and sex education aren’t likely to be argued as hard wired, quite the opposite, they’re essentially gender fluid -

(b) the curriculum includes the following areas in a factual and objective manner:

...

(iii) the different types of gender;

Gruffalux wrote: »

Self ID as means of declaring gender raises rational safe guarding issues and these must be logically addressed.

No it doesn’t, at least none that you haven’t completely invented and ascribed to Self ID. On it’s own, a self-declaration doesn’t do much more than declare that a person is who they say they are, and they are recognised as who they declare themselves to be in Irish law.

Gruffalux wrote: »

Children must go through their natal puberty as to do otherwise is too impactful on body and brain development. The social transitioning of young children by their parents must be interrogated as it is unnecessary and likely to be conditioning - leave kids alone.

I’d sooner trust parents to raise their own children than anyone else’s political opinions with regards to the welfare of children and what is in their best interests. I certainly wouldn’t advocate undermining how parents choose to raise their own children because their worldviews differs from my own. It’s an all too common argument that parents who don’t share our worldview should be regarded with suspicion. That only fosters a paranoid mentality and does nothing for children, it just makes it easier for State bodies to remove children from their parents care. I can only hope you never have to tussle with TUSLA, but they have a habit of undermining parents whose worldview they don’t share, primarily lesser educated parents. That’s not to suggest those parents don’t have rights, it’s simply to point out that TUSLA banks on the fact that neither parents nor the victims of child sexual abuse are aware of their rights -


Call for legal reforms around Tusla child abuse investigations


Being investigated by the same people who are fully in favour of socially transitioning children, I can predict how that would work out, certainly not favourable of any parents who disagreed that it was the best approach in terms of the best interests of their own children.

Gruffalux wrote: »

On a different note Thomas Pringle and Paul Murphy and some labour TDs that I do not know yet have shared the letter calling for removal of media and political representation access to the 'far right aligned defenders of biology' and 'questioners of affirmation treatment' asking for people to sign it.

It’s on the same note really given that Paul Murphy is one of the sponsors of the proposed Provision of Objective Sex Education Bill. He didn’t rock Joan Burtons world, but he settled for rocking her car, with her and her assistant trapped inside. The other sponsor of the Bill is of course Ruth Coppinger, more well known for swinging her knickers above her head in the Dail when the decisions of the Courts don’t go her way, than contributing anything remotely constructive to Irish society. The third sponsor of the Bill is Mick Barry, who from his Twitter at least seems genuinely interested in the welfare of women and girls in Irish society.

The future of education in Ireland isn’t likely to change all that much from what it is now, but outside of formal education we’re likely to see a lot more of this type of Newspeak in ambiguous euphemisms being pushed among political lobby groups consisting mainly of women. See references to ‘reproductive rights’, ‘reproductive justice’, ‘maternal rights’ and this absolute clanger which refers to people within the “birthing community” -


The basic concept is pretty simple: all kinds of people give birth. Women give birth. Men give birth.


And it is women pushing this stuff, not a small group of men, or adult females of the species. Were I ever to refer to any woman I know in such reductive terms like I just arrived on earth from the planet Zog, I’d fully expect to be slapped about the chops and asked where are my manners, as only a space cadet would refer to women in those terms. I just can’t see the “adult human female” nonsense catching on.