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Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Marcos wrote: »
    Now, if you were the CEO of a charity why would you publicly write your support on behalf of that charity calling for political representatives for those who hold a different opinion? Isn't that explicitly moving into the political sphere?

    Now is that really a big thing you ask? Well according to the Standards in Public Office Commission (SIPO), the body that is supposed to, among other things, oversee the

    So what has Amnesty International Ireland got to do with SIPO or the Electoral Act 1997? Well this is regarding a donation of €137,000 made in 2015 by The Open Europe Foundation (OSF) for a campaign which but in November 2018



    SIPO took an action against Amnesty because they refused to return €137,000 they got from the Open Society Foundation (OSF) based in Switzerland, stating that it was specifically used for political purposes which would be in contravention of the Electoral Act 1997 which states that This wasn't just aimed at Amnesty, the Abortion Rights Campaign complied with the order and returned the funding, acknowledging that it was a political donation.

    But Amnesty went to the High Court claiming that this money wasn't political it was just because the OSF liked Amnesty and supported their general view on things so gave them €137,000, as you do. After an exchange of letters including one from the OSF stating that this explicitly wasn't a political donation :rolleyes: that action was settled without a court hearing.

    So, after spending all that money, effort and goodwill specifically stating that the charities actions weren't political (and any monies that they received weren't for political actions), now the CEO comes out and tweets specifically on behalf of the charity that people who he disagrees with and urges politicians to deny them any blows any similar arguments out of the water.

    Unless you're a representative of a body that wants to have political influence on public life in this country but not have to adhere to little things like political financing laws. Run with the hare and hunt with the hounds if you will.

    And that kind of thing would never happen in Ireland now, would it?

    *FYI I like the majority voted in favour of repeal, but that's not what this post is about.

    One would have thought that, given the concerns that natal females have about the idea of biological males identifying as females going into females-ony spaces, Colm O'Gorman would have had some empathy, given what was done to him when he was a child.

    Here is a Scottish case from 2019.

    https://metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

    A transgender woman threatened to stab a 10-year-old girl’s mother during a terrifying sexual assault in the female toilets of a Morrison’s supermarket. Katie Dolatowski, 18, admitted grabbing the youngster by her face and forcing her into the cubicle before demanding she take her trousers off at the store in Fife, Scotland, on 4 March. She carried out a similar attack just weeks earlier, on 8 February, when another young girl using the toilet at an Asda store in Halbeath spotted Dolatowski using a mobile phone to spy on her over the partition wall.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Tired Gardener


    I'd like to know why a Woman's fear of Men, walking home at night, fully dressed on a public street is accepted as justified. While her fear of Men inside a locker room, naked and vulnerable is deemed as hateful and irrational?

    Anybody?

    Edit, changed my hitting the wrong key on the keypad. Locker room not locked room.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,940 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I'd like to know why a Woman's fear of Men, walking home at night, fully dressed on a public street is accepted as justified. While her fear of Men inside a locked room, naked and vulnerable is deemed as hateful and irrational?

    Anybody?


    Both of those premises have about as much truth in them as the idea that women have penises. They’re based first of all upon the idea that most women fear men, simply not true.

    And the idea of her being locked naked in a room with anyone else, never mind what sex they are, is enough to justify the idea that she would feel intimidated. I’m a man and I’d feel intimidated in those circumstances, because I’m locked in a room naked!

    The hell TG? Honestly :pac:


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Both of those premises have about as much truth in them as the idea that women have penises. They’re based first of all upon the idea that most women fear men, simply not true.

    And the idea of her being locked naked in a room with anyone else, never mind what sex they are, is enough to justify the idea that she would feel intimidated. I’m a man and I’d feel intimidated in those circumstances, because I’m locked in a room naked!

    The hell TG? Honestly :pac:

    They probably meant locker room, not locked room. If you read it that way, you can see their point. R and D are pretty close on the keyboard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,940 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    They probably meant locker room, not locked room. If you read it that way, you can see their point. R and D are pretty close on the keyboard.


    Good call, I wasn’t sure what the idea of locking the room was but both premises seemed equally bizarre anyway.

    There’s no “Woman’s fear of Men”, and there are women will walk home on their own at night, or go home with a man they’ve just met in the club, or any number of scenarios that disprove this notion of “Woman’s fear of Men”. In any case it would be irrational because it’s inherently paranoid.

    I don’t know anyone who would deem the second scenario hateful. It’s irrational, but hateful is a stretch, unless the woman did something to the man, in which case it would be difficult to argue she is the vulnerable person in that scenario.

    Either scenario is highly unlikely in any case, like lottery winning odds. I’ve known plenty of women who are intimidated and paranoid about sharing spaces with other women, clothed and otherwise, so the presumption that fear or intimidation or paranoia can solely be related to sex just doesn’t hold up. If we start at that craic then we have to make excuses for “Men’s fear of Women”. There’s plenty of those types of men about too.

    I can’t say I personally would be interested in encouraging, accommodating or fostering that sort of fear, mistrust, suspicion and paranoia of other people. It’a just not healthy and in extreme cases can be debilitating.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Good call, I wasn’t sure what the idea of locking the room was but both premises seemed equally bizarre anyway.

    There’s no “Woman’s fear of Men”, and there are women will walk home on their own at night, or go home with a man they’ve just met in the club, or any number of scenarios where there isn’t this “Woman’s fear of Men”, and in any case it would be irrational because it’s inherently paranoid.

    I don’t know anyone who would deem the second scenario hateful. It’s irrational, but hateful is a stretch, unless the woman did something to the man, in which case it would be difficult to argue she is the vulnerable person in that scenario.

    Either scenario is highly unlikely in any case, like lottery winning odds. I’ve known plenty of women who are intimidated and paranoid about sharing spaces with other women, clothed and otherwise, so the presumption that fear or intimidation or paranoia can solely be related to sex just doesn’t hold up. If we start at that craic then we have to make excuses for “Men’s fear of Women”. There’s plenty of those types of men about too.

    I can’t say I personally would be interested in encouraging, accommodating or fostering that sort of fear, mistrust, suspicion and paranoia of other people. It’a just not healthy and in extreme cases can be debilitating.

    Good luck Jack. You'd find an argument in an empty room. It must be exhausting being you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    I'd like to know why a Woman's fear of Men, walking home at night, fully dressed on a public street is accepted as justified. While her fear of Men inside a locked room, naked and vulnerable is deemed as hateful and irrational?

    Anybody?

    Indeed. We see this often, every cited fear of transgender women taken completely seriously when women’s safety fears are dismissed as irrational by many of the same people.

    I love men. I know the vast majority of males are non-violent. But I, like every other woman, have over the years developed instincts in order to protect myself. I don’t lightly say if a particular situation would make me feel uncomfortable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Indeed. We see this often, every cited fear of transgender women taken completely seriously when women’s safety fears are dismissed as irrational by many of the same people.

    It's not gone unnoticed usually the comments come from men which is more unusual


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,940 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Good luck Jack. You'd find an argument in an empty room. It must be exhausting being you.


    Nah I’m just not a fan of an ideology which portrays men as sexual predators and women as the vulnerable victims in waiting. That’s what that “Women’s fear of Men” was about, as though women share a hive mind and they all have this innate fear. Ludicrous to think that would even get legs, and yet it has among some feminists under the guise of “rape culture”. It’s an ideology that needs people to ignore a whole boatload of social context and it only appeals to people who are prejudiced to think like that already.


  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭Aleece2020


    There’s no “Woman’s fear of Men”

    Girls are taught from a very young age that they should be afraid of men.

    I could tell you so many stories from women I know personally who are scared of men because of terrible things that they have experienced. One story which particularly struck me was that one of them had a man show up at their place of work despite only speaking to them once on a dating app. They had only made small talk and she had never told him where she worked or lived.

    More women are afraid of men than you think. There are hundreds upon thousands of groups across social media where women share stories and images of messages they have received from abusive men. I have received dozens of unsolicited messages from men on social media containing images of their underwhelming small body parts and crude statements about where they’d like to put those body parts. I do absolutely nothing to solicit these images. They see a female name and profile picture and that’s enough for them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,940 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Aleece2020 wrote: »
    Girls are taught from a very young age that they should be afraid of men.


    They’re really not.

    Aleece2020 wrote: »
    More women are afraid of men than you think.


    I could equally turn around and say that less women are afraid of men than you think. The numbers of women who experience androphobia: the fear of men are but a tiny minority of women, and there are many explanations for it, and men can experience a fear of men too. Does that imply that men are taught from a very young age that they should be afraid of men? Of course not, no more than women are taught anything like that from a very young age.

    In any case, it’s an inherently irrational mindset, and it shouldn’t, and can’t be used to justify discrimination against anyone or any groups in society, in the same way as racism or homophobia are not excuses for justifying that sort of behaviour towards other individuals or groups in society.

    Their behaviour is excusable as children when their minds haven’t fully developed and they lack life experience which should inform them that their behaviour is unacceptable, but as adults? They’re expected to know better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,305 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Aleece2020 wrote: »
    Girls are taught from a very young age that they should be afraid of men.

    I could tell you so many stories from women I know personally who are scared of men because of terrible things that they have experienced. One story which particularly struck me was that one of them had a man show up at their place of work despite only speaking to them once on a dating app. They had only made small talk and she had never told him where she worked or lived.

    More women are afraid of men than you think. There are hundreds upon thousands of groups across social media where women share stories and images of messages they have received from abusive men. I have received dozens of unsolicited messages from men on social media containing images of their underwhelming small body parts and crude statements about where they’d like to put those body parts. I do absolutely nothing to solicit these images. They see a female name and profile picture and that’s enough for them.

    Irrational, every one of us. Don't you know that we have a man here who apparently knows more about the female experience than any woman? Every facet of it - from breastfeeding to periods to safety. You name it, he knows better. So if he says its nonsense and doesn't exist, well it must be true :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    Was thinking the other day am I the only one who remembers their mother and then themselves bringing their young boys into the women's loos with them in public places? Until the boys got bigger and refused themselves and then you had to loiter near the door of the men's jacks a bit tense and maybe even call in if they were still young and taking a while. What were all those women worried about and were they daft? I presume it still goes on? It was/is certainly not because of the "do you think all men are rapists?" codology.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,940 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Irrational, every one of us. Don't you know that we have a man here who apparently knows more about the female experience than any woman? Every facet of it - from breastfeeding to periods to safety. You name it, he knows better. So if he says its nonsense and doesn't exist, well it must be true :rolleyes:


    I never said every woman was irrational? I wouldn’t because I know even from your use of the term “the female experience” that it’s an entirely egocentric concept based upon your experience, as though men don’t grow up around women, they don’t have sisters, mothers, friends, they never grew up around girls, they have never associated with women who don’t share your perspective.

    Where do you imagine men come from that they must have no experience of women, that they should simply accept the idea that women are afraid of them without question even though it contradicts everything they know about society where men don’t hunt women up the aisle, where men live with women, men work with women, men have have daughters, nieces, cousins?

    It’s precisely because girls aren’t taught from an early age to be afraid of men, that Dr. Cliona Saidlear, Executive Director of Rape Crisis Network Ireland, says they should be taught this -


    Dr Cliona Saidlear said young girls need to be made aware that young boys who sit with them in the classroom can also be a danger


    I wouldn’t say it was rude of Aleece to say more women are afraid of men than I think, I just wonder how would they possibly know how prevalent I think the phenomenon actually is?

    It would be irrational were I to forego mountains of data and experience and perspective in favour of the opinions of a tiny minority of women who are certainly not representative of all women, or what you may refer to as “the female experience” as though women aren’t individuals with their own experiences, opinions and perspectives, and thankfully only a tiny minority of women think like Dr. Saidlear that fear of men needs to be instilled in women from childhood. It happens of course, but not to any significant degree that it indicates a commonality of thought among all women.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,731 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    We are not afraid of men but we are aware of what a man is doing when he walks behind us on a dark night or a stranger starts talking to us in a over friendly way.

    That doesn't make us fearful or paranoid or even feminists it is a natural awareness that protects us from dangerous men of which there are very few. But they dont carry signs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,731 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    Was thinking the other day am I the only one who remembers their mother and then themselves bringing their young boys into the women's loos with them in public places? Until the boys got bigger and refused themselves and then you had to loiter near the door of the men's jacks a bit tense and maybe even call in if they were still young and taking a while. What were all those women worried about and were they daft? I presume it still goes on? It was/is certainly not because of the "do you think all men are rapists?" codology.

    No. That argument is still being had. My nephew doesn't like going to the women's with me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,483 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    We are not afraid of men but we are aware of what a man is doing when he walks behind us on a dark night or a stranger starts talking to us in a over friendly way.

    That doesn't make us fearful or paranoid or even feminists it is a natural awareness that protects us from dangerous men of which there are very few. But they dont carry signs.

    you think men don't do that too?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭Aleece2020


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Irrational, every one of us. Don't you know that we have a man here who apparently knows more about the female experience than any woman? Every facet of it - from breastfeeding to periods to safety. You name it, he knows better. So if he says its nonsense and doesn't exist, well it must be true :rolleyes:

    The whole “you’re irrational and imagining things” card has been played too many times against women for far too long. I was “imagining things” for over a decade when I kept complaining about my periods. I was “exaggerating” my pain and symptoms. I have severe endometriosis and it took me 12 years to get a diagnosis because this same attitude of dismissing women’s legitimate concerns and fears is prevalent in some areas of healthcare too. And this was not 50 years ago; I was diagnosed last October.

    This attitude towards women of dismissing their concerns about their privacy and need for private spaces away from men to shower, change clothes and use the bathroom is horrible. It is not some irrational fear, exaggeration or paranoia. It is a legitimate concern and should be taken seriously.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    This is from Suzanne Moore. It’s a long read but I thought it was worth reading. I agree with so much of what she says. I would be of the belief that Irish Media is quite similar. Some topics must not be discussed.

    https://unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to-leave-the-guardian/?=frlh


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Tired Gardener


    There’s no “Woman’s fear of Men”, and there are women will walk home on their own at night, or go home with a man they’ve just met in the club, or any number of scenarios that disprove this notion of “Woman’s fear of Men”. In any case it would be irrational because it’s inherently paranoid.

    I'm a big bloke, built, stand over 6ft tall. I have a lot of female friends who over the years have told me how anxious they would be if they were walking home alone at night and saw someone my size and sex walking behind/towards them.

    Today is International Day ​for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/FemicideCensus

    https://mobile.twitter.com/kiritunks/status/1330442053382234112

    https://www.femicidecensus.org/reports/

    Remember, Men fear Women will laugh at us.
    Women fear Men will kill and/or rape them.

    That is the reality that Women haveto be all to aware of, we Men can dismiss this as it isn't something we have to even think about.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    mohawk wrote: »
    This is from Suzanne Moore. It’s a long read but I thought it was worth reading. I agree with so much of what she says. I would be of the belief that Irish Media is quite similar. Some topics must not be discussed.

    https://unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to-leave-the-guardian/?=frlh

    Although I think I would align with her way of thinking, that article is painful to read. She does come across as a ****ing dose.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    Although I think I would align with her way of thinking, that article is painful to read. She does come across as a ****ing dose.

    Haha :D I did think the same when I started to read it this morning, before I quit. Having said that I would say she has had to graft for every fecken thing she has got in work and it probably made her a bit of a dose.

    But now I have gone back and am going to read her article in little bits, so i can get past her personality. She has something very important to say. The abuse she has gotten for saying what she has on gender identity is absolutely unnatural. I can hardly contemplate how that must feel for her - probably a lot of women feel like me, a bit scared to publicly say anything about it. So we hide behind anonymity and keep our opinions private in public.
    The absolute vileness of the abuse poured on people, especially women, by the supporters of this rights movement must be beyond anything ever poured out on any other issue. I have seen the most graphic unbelievable stuff in print on public platforms. It is hard to believe there are so many insane people out there. Or that they imagine they are the good ones.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Gruffalux wrote: »
    Haha :D I did think the same when I started to read it this morning, before I quit. Having said that I would say she has had to graft for every fecken thing she has got in work and it probably made her a bit of a dose.

    But now I have gone back and am going to read her article in little bits, so i can get past her personality. She has something very important to say. The abuse she has gotten for saying what she has on gender identity is absolutely unnatural. I can hardly contemplate how that must feel for her - probably a lot of women feel like me, a bit scared to publicly say anything about it. So we hide behind anonymity and keep our opinions private in public.
    The absolute vileness of the abuse poured on people, especially women, by the supporters of this rights movement must be beyond anything ever poured out on any other issue. I have seen the most graphic unbelievable stuff in print on public platforms. It is hard to believe there are so many insane people out there. Or that they imagine they are the good ones.

    I agree. It's important to realise that the ironic lack of tolerance from radical trans groups is more damaging to trans people than anything else.

    The ability to talk through misgivings and concerns without being labelled as some sort of monster is paramount to learning and understanding.

    I will probably never accept that a man can become a woman or vice versa, but I sure as hell wouldn't intentionally make someone else's life harder. I will always be respectful when respect is warranted. I won't when it's demanded.

    But I do stand by my feelings on Suzanne Moore. Despite agreeing with her, she's an awful dose.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    Are the left, or any LGBT group's promoting biological women's Voices. With regards to transgenders invading there Space and sport. It seems all one way. If someone says anything for biological women they are called all sorts. So my question is Which large or well known left group supports biological XX women?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    Although I think I would align with her way of thinking, that article is painful to read. She does come across as a ****ing dose.

    In my experience it’s usually the case when writers are writing about themselves and their personal experiences.
    There is something troubling about such a well established journalist finding themselves in a position where her colleagues wrote a letter about how ‘transphobic’ they decided she was. Maybe it’s because they didn’t want her opinion out there in the public domain or they want the Guardian to print what is deemed pure. It wasn’t enough that the Guardian has plenty of woke staff that buy into the Gender Ideology and such views are regularly published. They have decided certain views must not be heard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    https://twitter.com/suzanne_moore/status/1331389096816762880


    I must say, I've little pity for people like Suzanne, who've likely bullied many people through the years because they don't agree with her. People like her are simply getting a taste of their own medicine, and they don't like it. They've danced in the pits of outrage culture for years, now they're shocked that it's on their doorstep.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    TomTomTim wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/suzanne_moore/status/1331389096816762880


    I must say, I've little pity for people like Suzanne, who've likely bullied many people through the years because they don't agree with her. People like her are simply getting a taste of their own medicine, and they don't like it. They've danced in the pits of outrage culture for years, now they're shocked that it's on their doorstep.

    While I don't disagree, I think that's what people call victim blaming. Be careful, you might get cancelled.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    While I don't disagree, I think that's what people call victim blaming. Be careful, you might get cancelled.

    She's a victim of a monster that she helped create, so I care little. Sane people have been warning people like her about where this would go, but they wouldn't listen, and often treated said sane people like dirt, so my sympathy well is bone dry.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    TomTomTim wrote: »
    She's a victim of a monster that she helped create, so I care little. Sane people have been warning people like her about where this would go, but they wouldn't listen, and often treated said sane people like dirt, so my sympathy well is bone dry.

    I get where you coming from. People ignored the warnings and are now finding themselves on the opposite side to where they once were. For me though where I differ to your post is that I am more concerned about what’s next then saying I told you so.

    What will be the next opinion that we won’t be able to discuss without being labelled as a bigot or a phobe.

    This black and white, for and against is bull. Life is much more nuanced than that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    silverharp wrote: »
    you think men don't do that too?

    You tell us. Women are just relating their experiences in the context of female-only spaces being eroded.


This discussion has been closed.
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