Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

silverharp

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

You tell us. Women are just relating their experiences in the context of female-only spaces being eroded.

If I was walking at night and I hear footsteps behind me , I'd at least sub consciously up my awareness. Just making the observation that being aware of strangers is not gender specific behavior.

suicide_circus

mohawk wrote: »

This is from Suzanne Moore. It’s a long read but I thought it was worth reading. I agree with so much of what she says. I would be of the belief that Irish Media is quite similar. Some topics must not be discussed.

https://unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to-leave-the-guardian/?=frlh

Wow, I got through most of that

I view it as a religion. It has articles of faith, heresies, miracles, excommunication, denouement, mantras, a priest class etc etc

Unfortunately for me, I am not of this religion, I am devoid of faith. I say "unfortunately for me" because this religion is now a state religion. It's on the statute books. A theocracy to which i must bend the knee.

political analyst

TomTomTim wrote: »

https://twitter.com/suzanne_moore/status/1331389096816762880


I must say, I've little pity for people like Suzanne, who've likely bullied many people through the years because they don't agree with her. People like her are simply getting a taste of their own medicine, and they don't like it. They've danced in the pits of outrage culture for years, now they're shocked that it's on their doorstep.

What evidence is there that she bullied anyone?

suicide_circus

mohawk wrote: »

I get where you coming from. People ignored the warnings and are now finding themselves on the opposite side to where they once were. For me though where I differ to your post is that I am more concerned about what’s next then saying I told you so.

What will be the next opinion that we won’t be able to discuss without being labelled as a bigot or a phobe.

This black and white, for and against is bull. Life is much more nuanced than that.

Agreed, "i told you so" is pointless but once "gender" and "sex" stopped being synonyms and gender became untethered from biological sex, we were on a runaway train to Self-IDville.

One eyed Jack

Tired Gardener wrote: »

I'm a big bloke, built, stand over 6ft tall. I have a lot of female friends who over the years have told me how anxious they would be if they were walking home alone at night and saw someone my size and sex walking behind/towards them.

And if those same friends tell you that women have penises, are you still going to defer to them as an authority on “the female experience” then too?

Say for example Emma Watson and yourself were good friends, and she says to you that women have penises. Are you going to say to yourself “Well Emma would know, so I must now accept what I’m being told as fact without question”?

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Today is International Day ​for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.

Remember, Men fear Women will laugh at us.
Women fear Men will kill and/or rape them.

That is the reality that Women haveto be all to aware of, we Men can dismiss this as it isn't something we have to even think about.

I remember where that comes from alright, it was horsecrap masquerading as a profound statement then, and it still is bullcrap. It’s absolutely not the reality women have to be aware of, and just to be absolutely clear - I don’t dismiss it because I’m a man, I dismiss it because it’s horsecrap. I dismiss it because in spite of your assertion, there is no “we men” as though there is an equivalent of “the female experience” which applies equally to men. I dismiss it because it’s absolutely not reality, it’s a perpetuation of sex-based stereotypes, which I fundamentally reject as nonsense, for good reason -


Not going to quote the whole thing, it shouldn't be the most disturbing thing you've ever read. If someone says to me they were raped, then I take it they know what they're talking about. They know what they mean. We work out the details after that first claim. That's an awkward conversation, but they're driving the conversation, I'm just listening. Sometimes they might come across like an utterly thoughtless thundercnut, sometimes they may be telling me what they think is the appropriate things that they imagine someone else in their position would say. Sometimes they get details and context and what was and wasn't said or done completely arseways, and then some people handle it with humour, the darker and more irreverent, the better. If that's the most disturbing thing you've read in a while, you've set the bar fairly low for yourself.

ingalway

Deleted User wrote: »

Although I think I would align with her way of thinking, that article is painful to read. She does come across as a ****ing dose.

Maybe if you'd had years of death/rape threats, had your childrens safety threatened, been constantly told to write fluff articles, paid half the salary of male colleagues amongst many other things then topped off by a letter, signed by over 350 people from your work saying you are a dangerous transphobe and they want you cancelled after a 30 year career, where there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of transphobia, then you might very well come across as a ****ing dose. Her world has been turned upside down by a hoard of bullies, the same people who claim sex is not binary but they know damn well what sex Suzanne is.

ingalway

TomTomTim wrote: »

She's a victim of a monster that she helped create, so I care little. Sane people have been warning people like her about where this would go, but they wouldn't listen, and often treated said sane people like dirt, so my sympathy well is bone dry.

Wow, big statements.

What monster did she create?
What have sane people been warning her about that she ignored?
How did she treat this sane people like dirt?

AllForIt

Deleted User wrote: »

Although I think I would align with her way of thinking, that article is painful to read. She does come across as a ****ing dose.

Moore seems to be following in the footsteps of Melanie Philips who of course left The Guardian years ago and has spoken of The Guardians wokey editorial policy and general attitude many times. Worth a listen. and perhaps not as dosey as Moore.

Gruffalux

I am watching this. The women who have founded LGB Alliance Ireland seem distinctly ordinary, sweet and non-hateful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jX5T_OYXUE

statesaver

RWCNT wrote: »

Trans person commits horrific violent crime.

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread?

This will be recorded as a crime committed by a female on the record books which it is not and should not be recorded as such.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am watching this. The women who have founded LGB Alliance Ireland seem distinctly ordinary, sweet and non-hateful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jX5T_OYXUE

Do you think how sweet someone appears to be in an interview has any bearing on the validity of their beliefs, or the prejudice that lead to those beliefs?

I mean...... They were hardly going to be screaming for trans people's heads.

RWCNT

statesaver wrote: »

This will be recorded as a crime committed by a female on the record books which it is not and should not be recorded as such.

How do we know that would be the case? In Florida they jail people according to their recorded sex at birth. Some cases as examples - google Justin Lee Naber Florida or Reiyn Keohane Florida. If they're imprisoned according to birth gender you'd assume crime stats would also be recorded by birth gender. A newspaper deciding to use preferred pronouns and name doesn't have any bearing on that. In any case, unless cases like this begin to skew the statistics on violent crime then it doesn't really make any difference. Posters on this thread have shown statistics of the crimes committed by trans people, so if you want criminal statistics that reflect reality and provide us with any sort of insights, you should want both sex and self-identified gender recorded.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Do you think how sweet someone appears to be in an interview has any bearing on the validity of their beliefs, or the prejudice that lead to those beliefs?

I mean...... They were hardly going to be screaming for trans people's heads.

I'm inclined to agree. I know nothing about this LGB Alliance crowd so I'll withhold judgement but a youtube video of them seeming nice is hardly noteworthy. Youtube is littered with videos of neo-nazis, anti-vaxxers, pedos, flat earthers and just about any other kind of nutter you can imagine sitting down chatting and appearing seemingly normal.

Gruffalux

RWCNT wrote: »

How do we know that would be the case? .

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-forces-let-rapists-record-their-gender-as-female-d7qtb7953

Gruffalux

RWCNT wrote: »

I know nothing about this LGB Alliance crowd so I'll withhold judgement but a youtube video of them seeming nice is hardly noteworthy. Youtube is littered with videos of neo-nazis, anti-vaxxers, pedos, flat earthers and just about any other kind of nutter you can imagine sitting down chatting and appearing seemingly normal.

I believe that technique is known as the Association Fallacy. In the one paragraph you have LGB Alliance and then throw in the other nasties. Pastry chefs on youtube appearing sweet but being nasty would have done the trick.

Could also be Hitler-baiting since you threw in the Nazi trope. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Hard to choose..

RWCNT

Gruffalux wrote: »

I believe that technique is known as the Association Fallacy. In the one paragraph you have LGB Alliance and then throw in the other nasties. Pastry chefs on youtube appearing sweet but being nasty would have done the trick.

Could also be Hitler-baiting since you threw in the Nazi trope. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Hard to choose..

No techniques here. I don't have the ability to implant ideas in people's minds like inception, nor do I want to.

Cmon Gruf, don't just assume the worst intentions possible of me. Was just making an extreme example of people with what any reasonable person would describe as nasty/fringe views - which is what some are claiming the LGB Alliance have. If you have a problem with people jumping to conclusions about the LGB Alliance's motives and agenda, I'd appreciate if you didn't do the exact same thing to me, thanks. I don't know any pastry chefs, do they have a rep for being nasty or something?

Gruffalux wrote: »

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-forces-let-rapists-record-their-gender-as-female-d7qtb7953

Paywalled article, but it appears to be talking about the UK and not America where the crime from the deleted post took place.

volchitsa

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am watching this. The women who have founded LGB Alliance Ireland seem distinctly ordinary, sweet and non-hateful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jX5T_OYXUE

I'm watching it too, it's nearly an hour long and I can 't tear myself away from it, it's so interesting.

I didn't know, but yet it completely makes sense, that butch lesbians like the NI woman of the couple who started LGB Alliance Ireland, Lauren, would have been the targets of trans activists now, trying to tell her that she "needs" to transition.
And that younger girls who are in reality simply lesbian like her are led to believe that transitioning is a way of escaping the unwanted male gaze that already plagues/plagued those of us who were young heterosexual women, but which must be a torture if you're trying to come to terms with being a lesbian teen!

LLMMLL

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm watching it too, it's nearly an hour long and I can 't tear myself away from it, it's so interesting.

I didn't know, but yet it completely makes sense, that butch lesbians like the NI woman of the couple who started LGB Alliance Ireland, Lauren, would have been the targets of trans activists now, trying to tell her that she "needs" to transition.
And that younger girls who are in reality simply lesbian like her are led to believe that transitioning is a way of escaping the unwanted male gaze that already plagues/plagued those of us who were young heterosexual women, but which must be a torture if you're trying to come to terms with being a lesbian teen!

I think the issue here is people spending too much time on Twitter. I know plenty of lesbians, some butch, some not, and it's never been suggested by anyone to them that they might be trans or should transition.

I also know children that have displayed gender non-conforming behaviour and nobody has ever once suggested that they are trans. A friend of a friend has a male child that will only wear dresses. It's never been suggested that he is trans and most people who discuss it seem to fully expect he will grow out of it.

Gatling

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm watching it too, it's nearly an hour long and I can 't tear myself away from it, it's so interesting.

I didn't know, but yet it completely makes sense, that butch lesbians like the NI woman of the couple who started LGB Alliance Ireland, Lauren, would have been the targets of trans activists now, trying to tell her that she "needs" to transition.
And that younger girls who are in reality simply lesbian like her are led to believe that transitioning is a way of escaping the unwanted male gaze that already plagues/plagued those of us who were young heterosexual women, but which must be a torture if you're trying to come to terms with being a lesbian teen!

It's funny the alliance has been fobbed off as some anti trans group set to take away from the Trans people ,
It's like one small group want to have total power over any discussion around trans and if your not proT your considered some kind for enemy who needs to be attacked and silenced from speaking up .

72sheep

I feel for the "LGB" community. They were making consistent progress on important civil rights before the "T" community showed up. Now the rainbow flag has been co-opted and increasingly signifies flame wars about 'edge cases' within that tiny community (e.g. admitting violent trans women into female prisons). It's not even like LGB and T had to be grouped together either, what a pity.

LLMMLL

72sheep wrote: »

I feel for the "LGB" community. They were making consistent progress on important civil rights before the "T" community showed up. Now the rainbow flag has been co-opted and increasingly signifies flame wars about 'edge cases' within that tiny community (e.g. admitting violent trans women into female prisons). It's not even like LGB and T had to be grouped together either, what a pity.

The gay community are fine with supporting trans rights. I think the community is more bothered by extremists like LGB Alliance campaigning against trans people while pretending they speak for gay people. Frankly it's mortifying.

Smacruairi

LLMMLL wrote: »

The gay community are fine with supporting trans rights. I think the community is more bothered by extremists like LGB Alliance campaigning against trans people while pretending they speak for gay people. Frankly it's mortifying.

Extremists? They came across quite well there in trying to distinguish the issues of Sexuality vs the issues of gender dysphoria and how they're not really connected. Are you calling them alt right then?!

LLMMLL

Smacruairi wrote: »

Extremists? They came across quite well there in trying to distinguish the issues of Sexuality vs the issues of gender dysphoria and how they're not really connected. Are you calling them alt right then?!

No I'm not calling them alt right. I'm calling them extremists and unrepresentative of the gay community.

Mr Meanor

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I'm not calling them alt right. I'm calling them extremists and unrepresentative of the gay community.

Interesting, a lesbian relative of mine in her fifties mentioned a couple of years ago that most troubles in the gay community started with the alliance. Her theories on why were very plausible and that most of the agitators were already well known and shunned in the community.

nolivesmatter

72sheep wrote: »

I feel for the "LGB" community. They were making consistent progress on important civil rights before the "T" community showed up. Now the rainbow flag has been co-opted and increasingly signifies flame wars about 'edge cases' within that tiny community (e.g. admitting violent trans women into female prisons). It's not even like LGB and T had to be grouped together either, what a pity.

Never really thought about it. Good point.

Sir Oxman

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I'm not calling them alt right. I'm calling them extremists and unrepresentative of the gay community.

How do you have this knowledge without asking every single lesbian, gay and bisexual person on the island.


Lobbying organisations/NGOs most definitely cannot be confirmed to be representative of every opinion within the totality of any loose grouping, more likely only within their own boards, management and possibly amongst volunteers and even that last category is at a push.


Could you tell us all what proof you have that that married lesbian couple are extremists?
This may be useful.

Extremism is "the quality or state of being extreme" or "the advocacy of extreme measures or views". The term is primarily used in a political or religious sense, to refer to an ideology that is considered (by the speaker or by some implied shared social consensus) to be far outside the mainstream attitudes of society.

Thanks.

Mr Meanor wrote: »

Interesting, a lesbian relative of mine in her fifties mentioned a couple of years ago that most troubles in the gay community started with the alliance. Her theories on why were very plausible and that most of the agitators were already well known and shunned in the community.

Interesting.
Is there any chance she could register here (free & anon) and let the readers know her opinion or any facts she has on the LGBA UK and it's founders and what trouble they caused a few years ago (LGBA UK was established in 2019)
I'm a big fan of transparency and the more opinion and discussion on this thread the better and as we all know the thread is not limited to Ireland whichever opinion or position posters may hold.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

The gay community are fine with supporting trans rights. I think the community is more bothered by extremists like LGB Alliance

Extremist what planet are you on .

Only one group wants to silence ,ban ,sack , censor cancel and remove represention from anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology .

AllForIt

72sheep wrote: »

I feel for the "LGB" community. They were making consistent progress on important civil rights before the "T" community showed up. Now the rainbow flag has been co-opted and increasingly signifies flame wars about 'edge cases' within that tiny community (e.g. admitting violent trans women into female prisons). It's not even like LGB and T had to be grouped together either, what a pity.

One of the things I object to is the way they (gender activists) have adopted language that was unique to the gay experience. Particularly 'coming out' and "queer" as in 'gender queer'. I mean it's not a big deal (and I never cared for the term queer anyway) but clearly there is an attempt to say look what the gays got we want the same it's all the same thing really give us what we want; through the use of using the same terminology.

Another aspect to that is the suggestion that transgender kids (and adults) suffer abuse and are ostracised on the same level as gays did and are still in some parts of the world. "Transgender ppl are dying" someone was screaming on Twitter recently. Now I know it's not a competition but I've never heard of people being disowned because they revealed they were transgender. Or that the Muslim world has a particular issue with it (they prolly do but not on the same scale).

I've never heard personal account's like that but I have many times when it comes to gay men especially. Yet gender activist talk as is they are suffering to the degree gay men and women were in the 60's when they started coming out. What it actually looks like (certainty with celebs) is they are only too eagar to come out as gender-fluid without any fear it's going to affect their record sales negatively. I suppose I have to say it; I'm not diminishing any abuse transgender ppl have suffered and do suffer, I'm just giving my opinion as you see it.

Mr Meanor

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Interesting.
Is there any chance she could register here (free & anon) and let the readers know her opinion or any facts she has on the LGBA UK and it's founders and what trouble they caused a few years ago (LGBA UK was established in 2019)
I'm a big fan of transparency and the more opinion and discussion on this thread the better and as we all know the thread is not limited to Ireland whichever opinion or position posters may hold.

I can but ask.
She came out nearly 40 years ago, the stories and facts herself and her partner tell are fascinating, recent years though have left them pretty annoyed at various groups antics. Hopefully she might inform us to give a better historic and current picture.
If she does reg don't worry you'll know!

LLMMLL

Sir Oxman wrote: »

How do you have this knowledge without asking every single lesbian, gay and bisexual person on the island.


Lobbying organisations/NGOs most definitely cannot be confirmed to be representative of every opinion within the totality of any loose grouping, more likely only within their own boards, management and possibly amongst volunteers and even that last category is at a push.


Could you tell us all what proof you have that that married lesbian couple are extremists?
This may be useful.

You could ask these same questions of any extreme ideology. Nobody can prove that any population (whether it's all humanity, or the population of gay people) doesn't secretly hold extremist views.

However, some simple enquires will quickly show you that these views are minority and extreme unless the people you ask are lying to your face.

I encourage you to ask a lesbian or gay man you know whether they have been pressured to sleep with a trans person, whether they feel their identity has been erased etc ad nauseum of all the nonsense that LGB Alliance Ireland promote.

There used to be a lesbian poster on the JK thread heavily involved in lesbian social groups who told of 2 members of the group who tried to import this nonsense and were swiftly told by the rest of the group that they had no notions of entertaining their attempts at division. I'm starting to suspect the 2 involved may have been the founders of LGB Alliance.

LLMMLL

AllForIt wrote: »

One of the things I object to is the way they (gender activists) have adopted language that was unique to the gay experience. Particularly 'coming out' and "queer" as in 'gender queer'. I mean it's not a big deal (and I never cared for the term queer anyway) but clearly there is an attempt to say look what the gays got we want the same it's all the same thing really give us what we want; through the use of using the same terminology.

Another aspect to that is the suggestion that transgender kids (and adults) suffer abuse and are ostracised on the same level as gays did and are still in some parts of the world. "Transgender ppl are dying" someone was screaming on Twitter recently. Now I know it's not a competition but I've never heard of people being disowned because they revealed they were transgender. Or that the Muslim world has a particular issue with it (they prolly do but not on the same scale).

I've never heard personal account's like that but I have many times when it comes to gay men especially. Yet gender activist talk as is they are suffering to the degree gay men and women were in the 60's when they started coming out. What it actually looks like (certainty with celebs) is they are only too eagar to come out as gender-fluid without any fear it's going to affect their record sales negatively. I suppose I have to say it; I'm not diminishing any abuse transgender ppl have suffered and do suffer, I'm just giving my opinion as you see it.

You absolutely are diminishing the abuse trans people have suffered. If you actually knew any trans people you would know that they have suffered as much, if not more than gay people.