Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Mr Meanor wrote: »

Interesting, a lesbian relative of mine in her fifties mentioned a couple of years ago that most troubles in the gay community started with the alliance. Her theories on why were very plausible and that most of the agitators were already well known and shunned in the community.

The LGB Alliance has only been in existence for about a year so that’s not true.

72sheep

Gatling wrote: »

Extremist what planet are you on .

Only one group wants to silence ,ban ,sack , censor cancel and remove represention from anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology .

Agreed. T group have somehow ended up with a megafone when really, according to the numbers, they should only have a small walkie-talkie. Of course that should have been just good fortune to be taken advantage of. However instead of primarily helping trans folks they are instead focussed on trying to change the world. As a result they are alienating potential allies and indeed many of their own as well.

If I were in 'broadcast' section T group I would be wondering how I earned so much attention and what is the current trajectory.

If I were one of the regular, vast majority of, T group members I'd want my personal life and my feelings to be weaponised a little less. How can it be even vaguely possible for them to talk about anything else whenever they meet people, it must be absolutely draining.

Sorry to say, if I were in LGB group I'd be backing off the T group - very gingerly - but as quickly as my little legs could carry me :-)

Gruffalux

I see "extremist" has become the new attempted slur. Can I please throw "defender of biology" into the ring as my personal preferred choice of insulting epithet - I quite like that one. And it has the Amnesty seal of hate speech approval.

In the UK the people who formed LGBA included Simon Fanshawe, original co founder of Stonewall UK and Allison Bailey, among other prominent well-known long-term LGB activists. These are disappointingly not the extremist trouble makers that someone's opinionated pal decided started "all the trouble" in the gay community a few years ago.

suicide_circus

I see John Cleese is tweeting questions about trans matters, including joking that he identifies as a Cambodian policewoman. To unpack that a little...

Gender is a social construct so the woman part is ok.

But then the police force is obviously a social construct too...being a police officer is not some hardwired characteristic - it must be learned. Police Forces are a social and cultural contrivance. Police officers play a role


and so is the country of Cambodia. There are no borders on the earth - they are literally manmade - arbitrary - they are an accident of history. Being Cambodian is an accident of birth - it has to be taught.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am watching this. The women who have founded LGB Alliance Ireland seem distinctly ordinary, sweet and non-hateful.

That’s not saying much. Ghislaine Maxwell and Alison Mack no doubt seemed distinctly ordinary, sweet and non-hateful to her victims too. That’s the thing about this ‘stranger danger’ stereotype that you keep perpetuating with the nonsense about bathrooms and prisons and changing facilities and all the rest of it. It’s a perception that simply has no foundation in reality.

I know you have an interest in criminology statistics and seeing that crimes are recorded accurately and so on, so in the spirit of same. We know from numerous studies then that in terms of rape or sexual assault, the perpetrators are known to their victims in the vast majority of cases, the ‘stranger danger’ perception still outweighs reality because people don’t accept that the people they trust the most would ever be capable of hurting them. That perception is what makes it all the more difficult for someone if they become a victim, and is one of the reasons they feel responsible for what happened to them and blame themselves rather than blame the person who committed the act. To put some numbers on it though (and these are by no means conclusive, they’re just from one study). Of the 991 women who participated in the advocacy program:

- More than 90% of rape and sexual assault victims know their attacker, a new study of almost 1,000 victims says.

- Just 9% of perpetrators were strangers to the victim

- 23% of women were assaulted by a partner or ex-partner

- 24% were assaulted a family member

- 44% were assaulted by "another known person"

- 32% were reported to the police more than two years after the incident

- More than 20% of the women took more than 10 years to report their ordeal to the police

- 22% had not reported their assaults to the police at all.


It’s a known fact that the whole area of women who commit sex crimes is vastly understudied, and there are various reasons for this, not the least of which is the influence of the sex-stereotype bias, but from what little research there is (and again, this is just one article, but refers to multiple studies):

- After pooling and analyzing the data gathered in the years 2010 through 2013, the authors found female perpetrators acting without male co-perpetrators were reported in 28 percent of rape or sexual assault incidents involving male victims and 4.1 percent of incidents with female victims. Female perpetrator were reported in 34.7 percent of incidents with male victims and 4.2 percent of incidents with female victims.

Referring to the prevalence of women who commit sexual violence in prisons -

- Noting the high prevalence of “sexual victimization committed by female staff members and female inmates,” the authors report that women are “much more likely to be abused” by other women inmates than by male staff.

- Among adults who reported sexual contact with prison staff, including some contact that prisoners call “willing” but that is often coercive and always illegal, 80 percent reported only female perpetrators. Among juveniles, the same figure is 89.3 percent.

- while it is often assumed that inmate-on-inmate sexual assault comprises men victimizing men, the survey found that women state prisoners were more than three times as likely to experience sexual victimization perpetrated by women inmates (13.7 percent) than were men to be victimized by other male inmates (4.2 percent).


And when it comes to the sex of the perpetrator(a) being recorded accurately, I just don’t know how to begin to even address that issue tbh -


Tellingly, researchers have found that victims who experience childhood sexual abuse at the hands of both women and men are more reluctant to disclose the victimization perpetrated by women (Sgroi & Sargent, 1993). Indeed the discomfort of reporting child sexual victimization by a female perpetrator can be so acute that a victim may instead inaccurately report that his or her abuser was male (Longdon, 1993).

Male victims may experience pressure to interpret sexual victimization by women in a way more consistent with masculinity ideals, such as the idea that men should relish any available opportunity for sex (Davies & Rogers, 2006). Or, sexual victimization might be reframed as a form of sexual initiation or a rite of passage, to make it seem benign. In some cases, male victims are portrayed as responsible for the abuse. Particularly as male victims move from childhood to adolescence, they are ascribed more blame for encounters with adult women.

And according to the paper, when female abusers are reported, they are less likely to be investigated, arrested, or punished compared to male perpetrators, who are regarded as more harmful.


I also don’t know how to go about telling people that the people they trust are the people who are more likely to be their rapist or commit sexual assault against them than a stranger unknown to them, I don’t know how to overcome that stereotype, but perpetuating it doesn’t help anyone, and also just because these statistics contradict their beliefs, I would never be so obnoxious as to say to someone that “the facts don’t care about their feelings”. I do, and that’s why I find the phrase so obnoxious, dangerous and misleading as the quote from Margaret Atwood earlier in the thread. I’d heard of it before but I couldn’t remember at the time who said it. This one -

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."

I’m not surprised to find that Ms. Atwood is also a defender of people who are transgender (at least more unequivocal about it than JK) -

The Handmaid's Tale author Margaret Atwood supports transgender community: 'Rejoice in nature's infinite variety'


It shouldn’t need to be said, but people aren’t just one dimensional stereotypes, and no more was this evidenced than in JK’s own support for Johnny Depp when details of his actions towards Amber Heard first emerged. Rather than show any real concern for Ms. Heard, JK released a rather ambiguous statement claiming contractual obligations were the reason Depp remained on the project, as though her hands were tied, finishing her statement with equally as obnoxious as the “facts don’t care about your feelings” crap, this -

“However, conscience isn’t governable by committee.”

Actually, it is, unless one is so far up their own arse that they ignore the fact that they are an equal member of society as everyone else with the same rights and obligations towards society as everyone else.

Gruffalux

Yesterday I heard that Callan Molloy, a 13 year old boy from Co Galway won damages of 450,000 euros because his hearing impairment was not properly treated when he was a very young child, leaving him with language difficulties. There are more cases in the pipeline - potentially up to 100 children were noted in a review of audiology services.

It made me think that the use on children of experimental protocols via off-label drugs that cause loss of fertility or sub-fertility, loss of sexual potency due to being left with juvenile genitalia and the restriction of sexual appetite known to be caused by absence of natal hormones, increase in thoughts of suicide and self harm, bone density loss, faulty joint problems, negative effects on brain development due to suppression of sex hormones, including drop in IQ*, will be awarded much more significant sums should there ever be future claims.

Note senior Irish medical specialists in the area already are objecting - Prof Donal O'Shea, Consultant Endocrinologist, and Dr Paul Moran and Ian Scheider, Consultant Psychiatrists, who have been treating people (at least in the past) at the Gender Identity Clinic in Crumlin Hospital, Dublin have said the practices in place now are ''unsafe''.. No one can say in the future they did not know.

*https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00044/full#B8

Gruffalux

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s not saying much. Ghislaine Maxwell and Alison Mack no doubt seemed distinctly ordinary, sweet and non-hateful to her victims too. .

See how Association fallacy, or alternatively the non sequitur works, lads and lassies.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

It made me think that the use on children of experimental protocols via off-label drugs...

...

No one can say in the future they did not know.

Just on the idea of the use of off label drugs - it’s a common practice in medicine, it doesn’t mean the drugs themselves are experimental, and medical professionals don’t have crystal balls so most procedures are experimental. I was born with congenital hip dysplasia that wasn’t detected at birth, had it not been for an experimental treatment I’d still be in extreme pain. Doctors cannot predict outcomes or offer any guarantees, and trying to portray them as unethical or irresponsible in all circumstances is irresponsible in itself -

Off-Label Drugs: What You Need to Know

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

See how Association fallacy, or alternatively the non sequitur works, lads and lassies.

The association fallacy you’ve been making throughout this thread between people who are transgender and people who commit sex crimes?

Yep, it’s painfully obvious the connection you’re trying to make by exploiting people’s ignorance. I just wanted to clear up the misconceptions for once and for all so that it couldn’t be used again, but I see now it likely will continue to be used in the same way as gript will continue to be cited as a credible source for anything.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Yesterday I heard that Callan Molloy, a 13 year old boy from Co Galway won damages of 450,000 euros because his hearing impairment was not properly treated when he was a very young child, leaving him with language difficulties. There are more cases in the pipeline - potentially up to 100 children were noted in a review of audiology services.

It made me think that the use on children of experimental protocols via off-label drugs that cause loss of fertility or sub-fertility, loss of sexual potency due to being left with juvenile genitalia and the restriction of sexual appetite known to be caused by absence of natal hormones, increase in thoughts of suicide and self harm, bone density loss, faulty joint problems, negative effects on brain development due to suppression of sex hormones, including drop in IQ*, will be awarded much more significant sums should there ever be future claims.

Note senior Irish medical specialists in the area already are objecting - Prof Donal O'Shea, Consultant Endocrinologist, and Dr Paul Moran and Ian Scheider, Consultant Psychiatrists, who have been treating people (at least in the past) at the Gender Identity Clinic in Crumlin Hospital, Dublin have said the practices in place now are ''unsafe''.. No one can say in the future they did not know.

*https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00044/full#B8

Speaking of association fallacies you're drawing a quite bizarre link between two very different things.

A boy does not receive care for his hearing issues and wins compensation.

Trans children receiving care you disapprove of.

There is absolutely no association between the two.

You also seem to very certain of the side effects of a treatment you describe as "experimental".

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Speaking of association fallacies you're drawing a quite bizarre link between two very different things.

A boy does not receive care for his hearing issues and wins compensation.

Trans children receiving care you disapprove of.

There is absolutely no association between the two.

You also seem to very certain of the side effects of a treatment you describe as "experimental".

There is a direct association in this case - inappropriate medical treatment. It is already being legally challenged in the UK. On the side effects I have read research articles. Even transgender organisations have backed off the ''fully reversible'' claims in the past year.

suicide_circus

Is there any definition of "man" that does not rely on circular logic?

The statement "a man is anyone who identifies as a man" still has not defined what a man is and assumes an unstated but generally understood definition of what a man is.

What is a tree?

A tree is anything that looks like a tree.

Gruffalux

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The association fallacy you’ve been making throughout this thread between people who are transgender and people who commit sex crimes?

Yep, it’s painfully obvious the connection you’re trying to make by exploiting people’s ignorance. I just wanted to clear up the misconceptions for once and for all so that it couldn’t be used again, but I see now it likely will continue to be used in the same way as gript will continue to be cited as a credible source for anything.

The association I have been making is the provable dangers via statistics to females when anyone can self identify into private spaces. I have never associated transgender people with sex criminals.

The association fallacies in the thread have been made between LGBA and neo nazis, flat earthers, anti vaxxers and yes...even ''pedos'' :eek: - things which have literally nothing in common.
You followed up, in quick time, by associating Lauren and Ceri of LGB Alliance with Ghislaine Maxwell and Alison Mack - people who have gained huge global notoriety as sex traffickers and sex abusers. If you were posting under your own name you would be liable for slander.

mohawk

suicide_circus wrote: »

What is a tree?

A tree is anything that identifies as a tree.

FYP. It’s phobic to say a tree looks a particular way.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

There is a direct association in this case - inappropriate medical treatment. It is already being legally challenged in the UK. On the side effects I have read research articles. Even transgender organisations have backed off the ''fully reversible'' claims in the past year.

A new fallacy. That a legal challenge somehow indicates a successful legal challenge.

Again there are no links between that hearing case and trans medical treatments other than in your head where you have decided that the treatments are inappropriate.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

The association I have been making is the provable dangers via statistics to females when anyone can self identify into private spaces. I have never associated transgender people with sex criminals.

The association fallacies in the thread have been made between LGBA and neo nazis, flat earthers, anti vaxxers and yes...even ''pedos'' :eek: - things which have literally nothing in common.
You followed up, in quick time, by associating Lauren and Ceri of LGB Alliance with Ghislaine Maxwell and Alison Mack - people who have gained huge global notoriety as sex traffickers and sex abusers. If you were posting under your own name you would be liable for slander.

He absolutely would not be guilty of slander.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

A new fallacy. That a legal challenge somehow indicates a successful legal challenge.

Again there are no links between that hearing case and trans medical treatments other than in your head where you have decided that the treatments are inappropriate.

And what waffle will you use to hand wave the senior endocrinologists and psychiatrists in the Gender Clinic in Crumlin who have come out publicly to air their serious concerns about the treatments being inappropriate?

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

And what waffle will you use to hand wave the senior endocrinologists and psychiatrists in the Gender Clinic in Crumlin who have come out publicly to air their serious concerns about the treatments being inappropriate?

Probably the same as you would use to handwave the medical professionals happily following the protocols.

Lux23

I don't understand the obsession with other people's gender identity. I have never felt threated by a woman that is trans in a bathroom or dressing room, plus half the the time you probably don't even notice.

Perhaps the saddest sight I ever saw was when I was in a Supermarket near the GPO and a woman that was extremely tall, and I suppose still quite masculine was standing beside the doorway. One of the women on the checkout noticed her, started to point and laugh and the guffawing and sniggering spread throughout the checkout. I will never forget how that woman looked in that moment and this is probably what we define as a microaggression, a bit of bullying or slagging, so I can imagine it wasn't her most frightening moment.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Probably the same as you would use to handwave the medical professionals happily following the protocols.

The case of those wishing to refrain from harm easily trumps the cases of those causing harm.

The women who have founded LGB Alliance Ireland seem distinctly ordinary, sweet and non-hateful. - Me

That’s not saying much. Ghislaine Maxwell and Alison Mack no doubt seemed distinctly ordinary, sweet and non-hateful to her victims too. _OEJ

So if we were all on a public forum here - say a newspaper or a radio or television debate and I said about you ''LLMMLL seems ordinary, sweet and non-hateful'', and if Jack retorted, ''That’s not saying much. Ghislaine Maxwell and Alison Mack no doubt seemed distinctly ordinary, sweet and non-hateful to her victims too'', thus associating you directly for some insane reason with notorious sex criminals, you would have no issue.

Gruffalux

Lux23 wrote: »

I don't understand the obsession with other people's gender identity. I have never felt threated by a woman that is trans in a bathroom or dressing room, plus half the the time you probably don't even notice.

Perhaps the saddest sight I ever saw was when I was in a Supermarket near the GPO and a woman that was extremely tall, and I suppose still quite masculine was standing beside the doorway. One of the women on the checkout noticed her, started to point and laugh and the guffawing and sniggering spread throughout the checkout. I will never forget how that woman looked in that moment and this is probably what we define as a microaggression, a bit of bullying or slagging, so I can imagine it wasn't her most frightening moment.

No genuine person I have encountered on this thread or similar threads would ever engage in such disgusting behaviour towards a trans person. But that kind of emotive anecdote is used frequently to frame people who criticise gender theory as monsters.

LLMMLL

Lux23 wrote: »

I don't understand the obsession with other people's gender identity. I have never felt threated by a woman that is trans in a bathroom or dressing room, plus half the the time you probably don't even notice.

Perhaps the saddest sight I ever saw was when I was in a Supermarket near the GPO and a woman that was extremely tall, and I suppose still quite masculine was standing beside the doorway. One of the women on the checkout noticed her, started to point and laugh and the guffawing and sniggering spread throughout the checkout. I will never forget how that woman looked in that moment and this is probably what we define as a microaggression, a bit of bullying or slagging, so I can imagine it wasn't her most frightening moment.

There is also the fact that many women who have a stereotypically male appearance are not trans women but masculine looking cis women.

The TERF approach will lead to many of these women being humiliated for their appearance when they use changing rooms etc.

suicide_circus

mohawk wrote: »

FYP. It’s phobic to say a tree looks a particular way.

But do you see what i'm saying?

The "X is anthing that identifies as X" mantra is at odds with my understanding of reality.

I'm opening to "updating" that understanding but i'm going to need to see some logical consistency in order to get there.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

There is also the fact that many women who have a stereotypically male appearance are not trans women but masculine looking cis women.

The TERF approach will lead to many of these women being humiliated for their appearance when they use changing rooms etc.

Since we are in the hyperbolic stage of things this morning perhaps the ''TERFs'' will also be responsible for the fulfilment of the sixth great mass extinction and the sun turning into a red giant.

Sir Oxman

LLMMLL wrote: »

You could ask these same questions of any extreme ideology. Nobody can prove that any population (whether it's all humanity, or the population of gay people) doesn't secretly hold extremist views.

However, some simple enquires will quickly show you that these views are minority and extreme unless the people you ask are lying to your face.

I encourage you to ask a lesbian or gay man you know whether they have been pressured to sleep with a trans person, whether they feel their identity has been erased etc ad nauseum of all the nonsense that LGB Alliance Ireland promote.

There used to be a lesbian poster on the JK thread heavily involved in lesbian social groups who told of 2 members of the group who tried to import this nonsense and were swiftly told by the rest of the group that they had no notions of entertaining their attempts at division. I'm starting to suspect the 2 involved may have been the founders of LGB Alliance.

Believing sex cannot be changed is not an extreme ideology.
Believing in same-sex attraction is not an extreme ideology.
Believing in dialog as a vital mechanism in human progress and welfare is not an extreme ideology.

"However, some simple enquires will quickly show you that these views are minority and extreme unless the people you ask are lying to your face"
It would be logical to say the accepted view amongst lobby groups is <insert here> rather than unequivocally state the same applies to the majority of people who are LGB people in Ireland.
The reason I bring this point up is that you have posted such statements as fact in this and the old thread continually, at one rather hilarious point claiming 99.99% hold this view :rolleyes: - your circle of friends isn't a national yardstick for anything and neither are mine.

It means nothing and brings nothing to the discussion.

"I encourage you to ask a lesbian or gay man you know whether they have been pressured to sleep with a trans person, whether they feel their identity has been erased etc ad nauseum of all the nonsense that LGB Alliance Ireland promote."

Well, seeing as I am a homosexual man I can answer for myself - no, I haven't personally. Does that mean it unequivocally does not or has never happened to others, of course it doesn't.

I believe another unofficial spokesman for LGB people, a drag artist/businessman known as 'Panti' recently asked that same question and apparently didn't like the answers that came with receipts.
Unlike 'Panti', I accept that he is entitled to his opinion and have no interest in othering him or his views - however, it is just another in a long line of examples of the intolerance innate in any form of groupthink and the performativity of quite a few (spokes)people.

I'd like an open and honest discussion amongst LGB people about that and an open and honest discussion about gender identity ideology/theory and it's affects or potential affects on LGB people, it's affects or potential affects via law and legislation which in turn can affect every person in Ireland while also protecting transexual people's rights however, it is painfully apparent IMO that dialog is being denied by *very important unelected people* as was the case across the water.


"There used to be a lesbian poster on the JK thread heavily involved in lesbian social groups who told of 2 members of the group who tried to import this nonsense and were swiftly told by the rest of the group that they had no notions of entertaining their attempts at division."

That third hand anectdote simply illustrates an Ireland and an attitude I do not want to see or promote (anecdote as paraphrased by you so it's third hand by now?)

If you cannot see that, you never will.
See, I can theorise about that scenario like so (it'd be fourth hand now but what does that matter if it fits my narrative, eh?)

'Hey fellow lesbians, I have a query about such and such a policy I've noticed being adopted and I'd really like to have a chat about it.
Shut up infidel! Shut up dividing us (??)! This is the doctrine, how dare you attempt to deviate, deviants!'


"I'm starting to suspect the 2 involved may have been the founders of LGB Alliance"
'I'm starting to suspect' - step back from the whodunnits - it's all rather Kommandante-ish.
It would be fantastic if that couple were the '2 involved' as you frame the anecdote which isn't yours, it shows consistency, enquiring minds.

There is an undoubted concerted effort by our 'betters' and some self styled 'allies' to cast out *at least* two women who have begun organising, as is their constitutional and human right, an advocacy group that they feel represents their viewpoint and to seek political representation, just as the fledgling LGB rights orgs amongst many others did many moons ago as it is obvious, the now established ones most certainly do not represent them .

This happens throughout all walks of life and advocacy and politics and unions especially on major issues.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

The case of those wishing to refrain from harm easily trumps the cases of those causing harm.

But it's all based on your feeling of what harm is. Obviously the medical professionals who support current protocols believe it would be harmful to deny the protocols to.trans children. In that case they Trump the medical professionals who wish to change these protocols. Again, all just your opinion.

So if we were all on a public forum here - say a newspaper or a radio or television debate and I said about you ''LLMMLL seems ordinary, sweet and non-hateful'', and if Jack retorted, ''That’s not saying much. Ghislaine Maxwell and Alison Mack no doubt seemed distinctly ordinary, sweet and non-hateful to her victims too'', thus associating you directly for some insane reason with notorious sex criminals, you would have no issue.

Of course I would have a problem with it. I wouldn't sue though. Because it's not slander.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

You absolutely are diminishing the abuse trans people have suffered. If you actually knew any trans people you would know that they have suffered as much, if not more than gay people.

To be fair, in many cases, they bring that abuse upon themselves. Most gay people I know, aren't obviously gay, except when they relax in a group. They're not overly feminine, nor do they hold any of the "stereotypical" gestures associated with gay people. An extreme minority though, are camp. These men need everyone to know that they are gay, and not just know, but rub it in their faces, to get a reaction. I've known many camp gay guys who will push and push others until they get an acknowledgement from the other person.

And that's often what happens with Transgender people. A Trans person who has committed fully to being trans, is generally very difficult to spot because they've put in for the surgery, the hormonal changes, learned how change their posture, taken speech lessons, etc. I know a few guys who made the transition to being female, and few people can distinguish that they're not naturally born female.

But then, you have mainstream transgender people who haven't sought the full transformation for one reason or another. Their appearance isn't male or female, but a combination of both. Often, their voices are also neither male or female, but something entirely different. Obviously different. And they're "content" with being that way.. and expect others to accept them as being different, but the same as their chosen gender.

But here's the rub. When you make your differences (to other people) visible, you inevitably make yourself a target, and you will draw trouble like flies to cow****. Most of the camp gay guys I know have been beaten up more than once, because of their behavior. Not simply because they were gay, but their mannerisms offended people.... often with them pushing that behavior, the more that people got offended, because they were seeking a reaction.

And that's what happens with many Transgender people. They're looking for attention. They're looking to cause a reaction. And that's why many Gay people want nothing to do with them. Most gay people I know want to be accepted into society, and for their relationships not to raise any eyebrows. They're generally subdued in public about signs of affection between partners, but the signs are still there. However, with Transgender people, invariably there's a push to make everyone notice them, and acknowledge them. It creates friction, and makes waves.

I know transgender people.. have they suffered as much as gay people? Probably, but I expect most of that suffering could have been avoided. I find there's a masochistic attitude with many Trans people, and camp gays. They enjoy the negative attention they receive.. otherwise they'd make more of an effort to simply... fade into the background.

The gay movement wanted acceptance in society. To be treated the same as everyone else. (at least they used to want that, but it's shifted considerably in certain camps) Most gay people I know don't want any acknowledgement for being gay, the same way most heterosexuals don't expect any recognition for being straight... Transgender people though... most are seeking something more than acceptance...

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Actually, it is, unless one is so far up their own arse that they ignore the fact that they are an equal member of society as everyone else with the same rights and obligations towards society as everyone else.

It literally took 5 minutes on a phone to get here .

So we know men carry out most of the attacks on women we know women also abuse physically and sexually nothing we didn't already know,
The majority of attacks in mens prisons are carried out by men and in women prisons women carry out the attacks again we all know the obvious and have done for ever.

We have human rights
We have women's rights
We have mens rights
We have childrens rights.

There is no other rights required for anything but yet we have a tiny cohort of men demanding we strip others of their rights for not agreeing Women /Adult Human Females don't have penises and testicles ,

Pure Nazism

Mr Meanor

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The LGB Alliance has only been in existence for about a year so that’s not true.

Oh My God..
This is why people don't post here, you will dispute anything in your ignorance. She's not Irish and I remember her with one UK alliance group with LGB and Trans in 2000.

The term 'Alliance' is not copyrighted by one group at one time, there have been many of them.

I have to leave this now.. the level of ignorance is strong on this thread.

Gruffalux

According to the Defamation Act 2009, a defamatory statement is one which tends to injure a person’s reputation in the eyes of reasonable members of society

If one publicly and falsely associated another person, not even by name but by suggestion, with notorious sex criminals then there are reasonable grounds for a claim of defamation. Whether it would be supported in court is open to question, as would be all legal challenges, but it is not good practice in debate to attempt to falsely associate known and named people with known and named sex abusers.