Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because the argument made seemed to be along the lines of "oh look at how nice these 2 ladies are. They couldn't possibly be meanies".

Makes sense to describe people who are.widely considered to be awful and who can appear to be nice to counter this argument.

I liked them. They remind me very much of my sister and her wife.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

I liked them. They remind me very much of my sister and her wife.

That's nice

Annasopra

Smacruairi wrote: »

Extremists? They came across quite well there in trying to distinguish the issues of Sexuality vs the issues of gender dysphoria and how they're not really connected. Are you calling them alt right then?!

They definitely are extremists. The whole raison d'etre of the LGB alliance is about destroying trans recognition laws. Here in Ireland we can see their insidious and disgraceful hate campaign would easily sacrifice LGB Youth who are victims of bullying because of their vitriolic hate of all things trans. They dont even pretend to be pro LGB just anti trans.

Annasopra

Sir Oxman wrote: »

How do you have this knowledge without asking every single lesbian, gay and bisexual person on the island.


Lobbying organisations/NGOs most definitely cannot be confirmed to be representative of every opinion within the totality of any loose grouping, more likely only within their own boards, management and possibly amongst volunteers and even that last category is at a push.


Could you tell us all what proof you have that that married lesbian couple are extremists?
This may be useful.

Extremism is "the quality or state of being extreme" or "the advocacy of extreme measures or views". The term is primarily used in a political or religious sense, to refer to an ideology that is considered (by the speaker or by some implied shared social consensus) to be far outside the mainstream attitudes of society.

Thanks.





Interesting.
Is there any chance she could register here (free & anon) and let the readers know her opinion or any facts she has on the LGBA UK and it's founders and what trouble they caused a few years ago (LGBA UK was established in 2019)
I'm a big fan of transparency and the more opinion and discussion on this thread the better and as we all know the thread is not limited to Ireland whichever opinion or position posters may hold.

Its actually pretty extremist to openly attack and undermine LGBT anti bullying campaigns because you dont like that the T is included.

Annasopra

Gatling wrote: »

Extremist what planet are you on .

Only one group wants to silence ,ban ,sack , censor cancel and remove represention from anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology .

Oh ok - the LGB alliance isnt trying to get LGBT anti bullying campaigns silenced, censored, cancelled and removed. Yeah right.

Sir Oxman

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

They definitely are extremists. The whole raison d'etre of the LGB alliance is about destroying trans recognition laws. Here in Ireland we can see their insidious and disgraceful hate campaign would easily sacrifice LGB Youth who are victims of bullying because of their vitriolic hate of all things trans. They dont even pretend to be pro LGB just anti trans.

You are completely untruthful in what you say and worse still, you must know it as a sentient being.
This is the outcome of indoctrination and authoritarianism on full public display.
It's quite sad really.

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Oh ok - the LGB alliance isnt trying to get LGBT anti bullying campaigns silenced, censored, cancelled and removed. Yeah right.

Sounds exactly like the trans crowd are doing on a massive scale ,and the lesbians are extremist ,

Some people hey !

Dante7

Sir Oxman wrote: »

You are completely untruthful in what you say and worse still, you must know it as a sentient being.
This is the outcome of indoctrination and authoritarianism on full public display.
It's quite sad really.

I just skim past everything he writes now. I have zero respect for him. The evidence has been produced countless times and has been ignored. Women and children are just accepted collateral damage for his bull**** ideology. They think they have the publics support, but they don't. All they have done is fooled and scared people into being afraid to speak out, but it is changing and soon. I have been told that there are 31 prominent women in the media just waiting to speak out. The misogyny will be remembered.

Annasopra

Sir Oxman wrote: »

You are completely untruthful in what you say and worse still, you must know it as a sentient being.
This is the outcome of indoctrination and authoritarianism on full public display.
It's quite sad really.

No. Its not untruthful. The LGB alliance is openly attacking LGBT anti bullying campaigns here in Ireland.

Annasopra

Dante7 wrote: »

I just skim past everything he writes now. I have zero respect for him. The evidence has been produced countless times and has been ignored. Women and children are just accepted collateral damage for his bull**** ideology. They think they have the publics support, but they don't. All they have done is fooled and scared people into being afraid to speak out, but it is changing and soon. I have been told that there are 31 prominent women in the media just waiting to speak out. The misogyny will be remembered.

The LGB alliance is accepting LGB youth being bullied as collateral damage in its anti trans crusades.

Gatling

Why would gay men be obsessed with the idea that women have penises ,

CtevenSrowder

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I share her view. I suppose I am not going to argue with being called a terf as that seems to apply to most people these days.

.

No no. It is an insult that seemingly only applies to you women. And in these threads is constantly thrown out by predominantly male posters. Misogyny? Maybe, I don't know.

CtevenSrowder

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The LGB alliance is accepting LGB youth being bullied as collateral damage in its anti trans crusades.

A bit like how you accept women being sexually assaulted, or children being given life altering medication/surgery, as collateral damage in your anti-women trans-rights crusade?

We can all play the game of hyperbole.

Annasopra

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

A bit like how you accept women being sexually assaulted, or children being given life altering medication/surgery, as collateral damage in your anti-women trans-rights crusade?

We can all play the game of hyperbole.

No. I dont accept women being sexually assaulted. I have never advocated surgery for children.

CtevenSrowder

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. I dont accept women being sexually assaulted. I have never advocated surgery for children.

Obviously. But you unequivocally state that the LGB Alliance is accepting of LGB youth being bullied. I'm sure they would deny that being the case. Yet it didn't stop you saying it.

As I said, a game of hyperbole.

Sir Oxman

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. Its not untruthful. The LGB alliance is openly attacking LGBT anti bullying campaigns here in Ireland.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The LGB alliance is accepting LGB youth being bullied as collateral damage in its anti trans crusades.

Wouldn't it be amazing if those groups could have a public platform to discuss their concerns over what you say they are dead set against in quite 'press release' tones rather than fight an insidious rearguard action by supposed human rights advocates, women's advocates to silence them, to deny their very right to organise and be heard and seek representation.

If any org was advocating what you say they are "accepting LGB youth being bullied as collateral damage" (to what???) then that would easily be defeated in the public sphere.


What exactly are people like you afraid of that you have turned to attempting to impose your beliefs through authoritarianism?

Here's one of the advocates I imagine many here support without exception, someone I'm sure they'd consider 'on the right side' and infallible being absolutely inconsistent as head of Amnesty Ireland about Irish women while applying extreme xenophobia as a reason to shut them up.
Another established NGO that is unrecognisable in their pronouncements

https://twitter.com/Colmogorman/status/1330621660416905218?s=20


I'd like people to know that in the UK, lifelong socialist/leftwing women, lifelong advocates for working people, for women and for LGB people were also vilified from on high (the now established and elite and quite frankly out of control unelected NGOs) after failing to even get a hearing of their very legitimate concerns within those former grassroots orgs be it the Labour party or Stonewall.This is not progress.
This is not democracy.
This is authoritarianism and bullying.

Annasopra

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

But you unequivocally state that the LGB Alliance is accepting of LGB youth being bullied. I'm sure they would deny that being the case. Yet it didn't stop you saying it.

As I said, a game of hyperbole.

Well they engaged in attempted destruction of an anti LGBT bullying campaign....

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well they engaged in attempted destruction of an anti LGBT bullying campaign....

They didn't .

CtevenSrowder

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well they engaged in attempted destruction of an anti LGBT bullying campaign....

And you fully support trans-women being housed in women's prisons do you not? This policy has led to women being sexually assaulted by said trans-inmates.

You see, we can all twist people's motivations to paint them as monsters.

RWCNT

Gruffalux wrote: »

Why did you use the examples neo nazis, flat earthers, anti vaxxers and pedos (!) if you want to engage in good faith?

I've already explained this. Because they're people that are widely understood to have outlandish, bigoted or immoral views - this is what certain sectors of the media are alleging of LGB Alliance, who I've admitted to not knowing enough about to form a proper judgement.

You posted a video of them having a nice chat and coming off as reasonable (which I didn't even watch, but look - I'm taking you at your word - because I'm not going to assume you're a bad faith actor!). I agreed with another poster that this isn't really much to go on as there are all sorts of unsavoury characters (which some are alleging of LGB Alliance) on Youtube with videos of them coming off as reasonable. I'm not reasoning that they must be misrepresenting themselves as well, I'm just acknowledging that it's not a great indicator one way or the other.

You can't read my mind and your obviously entitled to draw your own conclusions of what I'm trying to do, but it's really not my style so I resent the accusation. I'm not shy of calling things how I see them and if I think someone is a bigot trying to pass themselves off as someone with genuine concerns I'll state so plainly - I've done so numerous times on threads about other topics. I also give the people reading my posts more credit than to think I'm going to smuggle the idea that LGB Alliance are equivalent to pedos, nazis and conspiracy theorists simply by putting those words within a paragraph of eachother. I hope that's all clear.

Gruffalux

RWCNT wrote: »

I've already explained this. Because they're people that are widely understood to have outlandish, bigoted or immoral views - this is what certain sectors of the media are alleging of LGB Alliance, who I've admitted to not knowing enough about to form a proper judgement.
.

You don't know enough about them to form a proper judgement and yet you are happy to easily accept on the word of some anonymous people on here or twitter that ''they're people that are widely understood to have outlandish (), bigoted or immoral () views ''. And then you don't watch a video of them personally speaking of their project. (Enough confused faces inserted, but know that I have a *confused face* )

RWCNT wrote: »

I also give the people reading my posts more credit than to think I'm going to smuggle the idea that LGB Alliance are equivalent to pedos, nazis and conspiracy theorists simply by putting those words within a paragraph of eachother. I hope that's all clear.

But you did that. Not within a paragraph of each other, but in sequential sentences in the same paragraph. You put them alongside pedos and neo-nazis. You could have compared their supposed niceness to anyone - angry turnip farmers or bankrupt line-dancers - but some sort of equivalance between LGBA members and the lowest of the low - paedophiles - was chosen instead to be suggested. Even though you admit to knowing very little about them.

Anyway I am not going to labour this point anymore. I was pointing out the tactic which is not in good faith and was followed up by someone else comparing them to sex traffickers.

RWCNT

Gruffalux wrote: »

You don't know enough about them to form a proper judgement and yet you are happy to easily accept on the word of some anonymous people on here or twitter that ''they're people that are widely understood to have outlandish (), bigoted or immoral () views ''. And then you don't watch a video of them personally speaking of their project. (Enough confused faces inserted, but know that I have a *confused face* )

That would be extremely confusing but that's not what I said at all. I haven't taken anyone's word that they hold any kind of troubling views - I'm openly stating that I don't know enough about them to form a judgement. I'm acknowledging that people are saying that they do - which you must acknowledge as you want to defend them. What some of the media are saying about them very well could be total nonsense, but that video of them appearing reasonable isn't solid evidence either for or against that. It's a key distinction. I may watch the video at some point but I haven't had a spare hour I've been minded to spend on it, and as I say, it wouldn't provide much in the way of evidence anyway! To form a judgement, I'd prefer to read up on them from a number of different sources from different viewpoints whenever I have the time.

Gruffalux wrote: »

But you did that. Not within a paragraph of each other, but in sequential sentences in the same paragraph. You put them alongside pedos and neo-nazis. You could have compared their supposed niceness to anyone - angry turnip farmers or bankrupt line-dancers - but some sort of equivalance between LGBA members and the lowest of the low - paedophiles - was chosen instead to be suggested. Even though you admit to knowing very little about them.

If someone develops the idea that LGB Alliance are somehow equivalent to any of the people I mention, that's on them. It's a completely illogical conclusion to arrive at from what I've said. The crux of what myself and OEJ are saying isn't drawing equivalence between the LGBA and anyone, we're explaining how "Oh but look, they seem nice/reasonable" isn't exactly a great defence against any contrary allegations, using obvious examples of people that are bad to illustrate that. As far as I'm aware, angry turnip farmers are not understood to be people with any kind of objectionable views like some are trying to make out of the LGBA. So saying "Well, some people think angry turnip farmers are reasonable as well!" makes zero sense.

Gruffalux wrote: »

Anyway I am not going to labour this point anymore. I was pointing out the tactic which is not in good faith and was followed up by someone else comparing them to sex traffickers.

I'm fine to leave it there myself, I can only explain myself so many times. Accusations of acting in bad faith when I have no issues stating my opinions clearly and you've (I assume accidentally?) misrepresented what I've said leaves a sour taste, particularly when I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt which I'm not receiving in return, but oh well. I'm off to spend the last of my lunch break researching angry turnip farmers, the finances of line dancers and the temperament of pastry chefs (frustrating argument aside, I did love these suggested alternatives. Genuinely put a smile on my face today)

Gruffalux

RWCNT wrote: »

7


I'm fine to leave it there myself, I can only explain myself so many times. Accusations of acting in bad faith when I have no issues stating my opinions clearly and you've (I assume accidentally?) misrepresented what I've said leaves a sour taste, particularly when I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt which I'm not receiving in return, but oh well. I'm off to spend the last of my lunch break researching angry turnip farmers, the finances of line dancers and the temperament of pastry chefs (frustrating argument aside, I did love these suggested alternatives. Genuinely put a smile on my face today)

Good. I'm off for a walk meself and there is every chance I could meet an angry turnip farmer.

Gatling

Gruffalux wrote: »

Good. I'm off for a walk meself and there is every chance I could meet an angry turnip farmer.

Just don't ask her to show you her turnips

Annasopra

Gatling wrote: »

They didn't .

They absolutely did


https://twitter.com/RobertBohan/status/1328399587724439554?s=19

Sir Oxman

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

They absolutely did


https://twitter.com/RobertBohan/status/1328399587724439554?s=19

I have read their communication.
What is 'far right' or 'bigoted' or anything warranting the slurs and vilification you support along with Mr Bohan who is of the same mindset and sounds rather unhinged in his 'gotcha' tweet.
I mean, seriously is himself and Colm competing to see who is the most compromised, incompetent 'spokesman' who cannot see the irony? :
"The attempt to import an English colonial viewpoint towards sexuality & gender is not acceptable. The seeking to divide the fantastic & diverse LGBTQI community is openly homophobic & the attempt to draw children into an English far right culture war beyond contempt."

Are you telling me you want any objections or queries relating to educational materials farmed out to lobby groups to be banned?
What about the points they raise?
Where are they 'throwing LGBT youth under the bus as collateral damage' (to what is never explained)?

Gruffalux

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

They absolutely did


https://twitter.com/RobertBohan/status/1328399587724439554?s=19

This is the second time you have raised this letter in the thread and you did not address any of the replies that challenged it.

If you missed it - I said

The BelongTo website says on their advice to young people section that Gender identity is hard wired from birth. This is not true. Gender, as in sex, perhaps, we are not blank slates as some would have us, but not gender ''identity'' and certainly not gender expression, which is well in under the trans umbrella.


I looked at that Pink News article and at the screenshots of the letter linked.
Here are some of my observations, though I do not know what is in the BelongTo school's pack. Just going by what is said to be contained.

LGB Alliance appears to be mainly concerned with safe guarding issues.

Reference to suicide.
That should be done only in a very limited careful manner. Polly Carmichael, long time Director of GIDS Tavistock has publicly stated that gender diverse children show no greater risk of suicide than the children generally treated and rates of self-harm, distress and suicidal ideation are similar to CAMHS figures overall. The subject of suicide should not be included in an information pack to school children.

Stereotypes.
Boys who wear makeup or dresses, or girls who like short hair might really be the opposite sex. This is ludicrous. They are simply non-conforming. That transgender would be the go to position encouraged is not useful. Especially given the affirmation approach will ruin their health.

The letter says the guidelines contain 47 mentions of the word trans, 8 mentions of gay, 4 of lesbian and 0 of homosexual. That seems very odd and unbalanced. Also perhaps related to the fact that homosexual is becoming a word that is unacceptable as it implies attraction is SEX based.

Keeping secrets encouraged. Make online contact. Don't tell parents. Could be treated as socially transitioned in school without parents knowledge. These are all big safeguarding red lights.

Guidance says trans identifying students must be allowed use the private facilities according to preferred gender identity, including dormitories. This leaves open safe guarding issues when all that is required is self identification.

If the school guidelines do not include reference to the changing medical perspectives on the affirmation protocol then it is not suitable to be presented in schools.

So, overall, I would like to know more about what is actually presented by external organisations as fact to schoolchildren.

Dante7

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. Its not untruthful. The LGB alliance is openly attacking LGBT anti bullying campaigns here in Ireland.

They did not. Quit with your nonsense. No one believes you. They highlighted how all the campaigns have been hijacked by the trans lobby and have becomes all about the trans agenda. Nothing can be mentioned without the narcissistic attention seekers making it about them. There was a trans day of remembrance last week in the middle of a trans awareness week (awareness week, ffs, as if we hear about anything else), on international childrens day and our children's Minister tweets about fúckin trans murders, even though there have been bugger all in Ireland. And yesterday was a day about violence against women, and what is tweeted - violence against of trans. We've had enough.

Women want their spaces back and their rights and their words. They don't feel welcome in the LGBTQI community anymore as it has become all about the trans and the fetishists. And the real transsexuals who everybody got along with are now also collateral damage because they are going to get the pushback when this all explodes. Any of them I have talked to are all aghast at what is happening.

CtevenSrowder

Sir Oxman wrote: »

I have read their communication.
What is 'far right' or 'bigoted' or anything warranting the slurs and vilification you support along with Mr Bohan who is of the same mindset and sounds rather unhinged in his 'gotcha' tweet.
I mean, seriously is himself and Colm competing to see who is the most compromised, incompetent 'spokesman' who cannot see the irony? :
"The attempt to import an English colonial viewpoint towards sexuality & gender is not acceptable. The seeking to divide the fantastic & diverse LGBTQI community is openly homophobic & the attempt to draw children into an English far right culture war beyond contempt."

Are you telling me you want any objections or queries relating to educational materials farmed out to lobby groups to be banned?
What about the points they raise?
Where are they 'throwing LGBT youth under the bus as collateral damage' (to what is never explained)?

It's highly ironic they would say this, considering they themselves have imported an American viewpoint towards sexuality and gender. In a sense have self-colonised their own minds with this hyper-progressiveness.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

suicide_circus wrote: »

Is there any definition of "man" that does not rely on circular logic?

The statement "a man is anyone who identifies as a man" still has not defined what a man is and assumes an unstated but generally understood definition of what a man is.

What is a tree?

A tree is anything that looks like a tree.

Well, yes. Adult human male.