Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

LLMMLL

Gervais08 wrote: »

“Silliness” ?

Around not wanting a violated woman to be examined a man ?

Horrific.

A trans woman doctor is a woman.

And a violated woman Is free to choose her doctor. None of them actually care whether their doctor is trans or not so it's not actually going to matter

IAMAMORON

ingalway wrote: »

What human rights do transgender people NOT have compared to other people?

I am not aware of any to be honest?

Do you know of any?

jam_mac_jam

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Can you give me an example of any sports where this is currently happening?



Again this appears highly hypothetical, are their any actual examples of this happening?



NO, I massively disagree, everyone's human rights are unique and need to be respected. That is self explanatory and not open for discussion. One particular humans' notion about how the world should is not more important than anothers' , no matter what sex or gender preference they are. It is a completely separate matter. Every human being is entitled to rights.

How is anything I have said there lead you to believe that any human is not entitled to human rights?

I'm not saying anyone is not entitled to anything I am explaining where the difference between seeing it by gender or sex causes a conflict.

For sports examples there are loads. Not remotely hypothetical and a real issue that I did not personally invent.

I was using it as an example of how it is seen differently based on sex or gender.

Gruffalux

Rodin wrote: »

Chances are the poster has never even met a transperson never mind had one as a doctor.
The discussion around the topic is completely at odds with its prevalence.

Given the lack of prevalence one would have to note the excessive power invested to transform laws, language, science, medicine, social provisions, sports, academic discourse, corporate ethics etc on its behalf, no?
Menstruators. People with a cervix. Chest feeders. 2 male sex offenders in a female jail in Ireland. 100 plus Irish children already treated at Tavistock, whose practices are being subject to review and scrutiny by the UK government and media. Recent discussion re policy in Irish govt to enable even younger people to self ID without parental consent or medical oversight. And so on.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

And a violated woman Is free to choose her doctor. None of them actually care whether their doctor is trans or not so it's not actually going to matter

Are you actually for real .

A woman who's been raped by a man is not going to care if man who self identifies as a woman does an rape examination .

GTF

IAMAMORON

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

For sports examples there are loads. Not remotely hypothetical and a real issue that I did not personally invent.

Give me "loads" of examples of transgenders in sports.

I have all night.

MynamesColm

Gervais08 wrote: »

“Silliness” ?

Around not wanting a violated woman to be examined a man ?

Horrific.

I agree it is silliness. Surely the important thing is that the victim is treated by a doctor who is able to make the victim feel as comfortable as possible.

Gervais08

LLMMLL wrote: »

A trans woman doctor is a woman.

And a violated woman Is free to choose her doctor. None of them actually care whether their doctor is trans or not so it's not actually going to matter

Oh of course you know all rape victims and can speak for them all

jam_mac_jam

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Give me "loads" of examples of transgenders in sports.

I have all night.

I don't. Look it up yourself. Start with Fallon fox who laughed about smashing a woman's skull.

There are many more. Much less extreme.

There's a whole thread on it already.

Gruffalux

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Give me "loads" of examples of transgenders in sports.

I have all night.

I mentioned a list earlier. Google will also help you since you have all night.

Eric Cartman

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Give me "loads" of examples of transgenders in sports.

I have all night.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports

Trans men[edit]
Kye Allums, basketball
Schuyler Bailar, swimming
Mack Beggs,[53] wrestling
Harrison Browne, ice hockey
Balian Buschbaum,[54] pole vault
Willy De Bruijn, cycling
Keelin Godsey, hammer throw[55]
Zdeněk Koubek, track
Andreas Krieger, shot put
Patricio Manuel, boxing
Chris Mosier, triathlon, duathlon
Cory Oskam, ice hockey [56]
Erik Schinegger, skiing
Mark Weston, athletics
Trans women[edit]
Tifanny Abreu, volleyball
Alessia Almeri,[57] volleyball
Mianne Bagger, golf
Savannah Burton
Parinya Charoenphol, Thai boxing
JayCee Cooper,[58] Powerlifting, Roller Derby
Roberta Cowell, motor sports
Yanelle Del Mar Zape,[59] Track and Field
Athena Del Rosario, football(soccer) and beach handball [60]
Michelle Duff
Michelle Dumaresq
Fallon Fox, mixed martial arts
Natalie van Gogh, cycling
Laurel Hubbard, weightlifting
Veronica Ivy,[61][62] cycling
Lauren Jeska, fell running
Janae Kroc
Caroline Layt,[59][63][64] Rugby League, Rugby Union and Track and Field
Bobbi Lancaster, golf
Samantha 'Sammy' Walker, Football (Soccer)[65]
Kellie Maloney
Kirsti Miller,[66] Modern Pentathlon, Aquathon and AFL
Terri Miller, track and field (high school) [67]
Cate McGregor, cricket
Hannah Mouncey, handball and Australian football
Laura Nagtegaal,[68][69] disc golf
Renée Richards, tennis
Jaiyah Saelua
Britney Stinson,[70] American football, baseball
CeCe Telfer, track and field [71]
Andraya Yearwood, track and field (high school)
Charlie Christina Martin, motor sports

Gervais08

MynamesColm wrote: »

I agree it is silliness. Surely the important thing is that the victim is treated by a doctor who is able to make the victim feel as comfortable as possible.

And you think that’s someone that resembles the bastard who attacked her?

Or more likely would it be someone who can understand how she might be feeling?

Galwayguy35

LLMMLL wrote: »

A trans woman doctor is a woman.

And a violated woman Is free to choose her doctor. None of them actually care whether their doctor is trans or not so it's not actually going to matter

Well no they aren't in fairness.

As I said in the previous post people can call themselves whatever they want but their opinion on what they are shouldn't affect other people.

Someone who was born a man is still a biological male no matter what operation they have had to change the plumbing downstairs.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Given the lack of prevalence one would have to note the excessive power invested to transform laws, language, science, medicine, social provisions, sports, academic discourse, corporate ethics etc on its behalf, no?
Menstruators. People with a cervix. Chest feeders. 2 male sex offenders in a female jail in Ireland. 100 plus Irish children already treated at Tavistock, whose practices are being subject to review and scrutiny by the UK government and media. Recent discussion re policy in Irish govt to enable even younger people to self ID without parental consent or medical oversight. And so on.

The changes themselves are quite mild. Most stem from one change. Self ID laws.

It's like saying "a small number of people are gay but somehow had the power to change our most fundamental legal document the Constitution. So excessive".

Rodin

LLMMLL wrote: »

A trans woman doctor is a woman.

And a violated woman Is free to choose her doctor. None of them actually care whether their doctor is trans or not so it's not actually going to matter

They do care though if their doctor is a male... given the likely alleged rapist is male....

MynamesColm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Give me "loads" of examples of transgenders in sports.

I have all night.

Isnt this something for sports organisations to police. Don't many do this already by having limits on testosterone and such?

jam_mac_jam

Rodin wrote: »

They do care though if their doctor is a male... given the likely alleged rapist is male....

Yes but it's up to rape victim to be kind.

LLMMLL

Gervais08 wrote: »

And you think that’s someone that resembles the bastard who attacked her?

Or more likely would it be someone who can understand how she might be feeling?

Why do you think the imaginary trans woman who assists her would look like the imaginary rapist?

Gervais08

MynamesColm wrote: »

Isnt this something for sports organisations to police. Don't many do this already by having limits on testosterone and such?

Testosterone means little - after a male has gone through puberty the majority f their strength and muscle mass remains no matter what their testosterone level.

Gruffalux

MynamesColm wrote: »

I agree it is silliness. Surely the important thing is that the victim is treated by a doctor who is able to make the victim feel as comfortable as possible.

How about strip searching? Having had a rather peripatetic and adventurous youth I was strip searched twice on border crossings abroad. Both times by a female officer because that was my right as a woman. Should I have been denied that right? Should a male have been allowed to strip search me?

Gervais08

LLMMLL wrote: »

Why do you think the imaginary trans woman who assists her would look like the imaginary rapist?

Because. They. Would. Both. Be. Men.

Can’t make it any clearer for you.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

To all the do-gooders on the thread.

If a 50 year old man suddenly comes out as trans. Are you comfortable with said 50 year old man sharing a changing room with your young daughter in lets say a swimming pool?

How would you feel if a 16 year old boy suddenly came out as "trans" and was competing against your daughter in rugby/soccer/martial arts or whatever.

Because that's what youre calling for.

LLMMLL

Rodin wrote: »

They do care though if their doctor is a male... given the likely alleged rapist is male....

How do you know?

How do you know they would not be ok with a transwoman.

Would they be ok with a transwoman who had no stereotypically masculine facial features?

Would they be bothered by a cis woman doctor who did have stereotypically masculine facial features?

It's amazing how TERFs will use rape vcitims as ammo in their debates. They have no regard for the victims as individuals.

km991148

why are we now talking about all these wonderful what if scenarios?

What is a rape victim gets to the examination and meets with a person of the opposite sex and then what if they have a nurse who was biologically male but then they were presenting as female and what if the police person didn't want to identify as either gender and what is the person who raped in the first place was the girl from the prodigy video?

Is that it?

MynamesColm

Gervais08 wrote: »

And you think that’s someone that resembles the bastard who attacked her?

Or more likely would it be someone who can understand how she might be feeling?

Oh, the hypothetical victim I was thinking of preferred to have a doctor she was familiar and comfortable with.


You prefer her doctor was a cold fingered woman who didn't believe she had been raped? Crikey!

km991148

Hunky Monster wrote: »

To all the do-gooders on the thread.

If a 50 year old man suddenly comes out as trans. Are you comfortable with said 50 year old man sharing a changing room with your young daughter in lets say a swimming pool?

How would you feel if a 16 year old boy suddenly came out as "trans" and was competing against your daughter in rugby/soccer/martial arts or whatever.

Because that's what youre calling for.

and what if and what if and what if..

and what is a do-gooder anyway - just a bunch of people talking on the internet like?

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

How about strip searching? Having had a rather peripatetic and adventurous youth I was strip searched twice on border crossings abroad. Both times by a female officer because that was my right as a woman. Should I have been denied that right? Should a male have been allowed to strip search me?

How would you know if it was a trans person searching you? Would you ask woman with stereotypically masculine facial features to confirm she is a cis woman?

Gervais08

Hunky Monster wrote: »

To all the do-gooders on the thread.

If a 50 year old man suddenly comes out as trans. Are you comfortable with said 50 year old man sharing a changing room with your young daughter in lets say a swimming pool?

How would you feel if a 16 year old boy suddenly came out as "trans" and was competing against your daughter in rugby/soccer/martial arts or whatever.

Because that's what youre calling for.

No and no. Definitely a big no to the first one.

I’m not in the best shape and feel a little self conscious in the changing rooms. No way am I getting my kit off if there’s a hairy arsed bloke in there.

IAMAMORON

MynamesColm wrote: »

Isnt this something for sports organisations to police. Don't many do this already by having limits on testosterone and such?

I honestly don't feel it is that much of an issue either. Yes there will be examples of transgenders playing sports, but that does not mean they need their own Olympics just yet either? There simply is not that many at a professional level, granted in a world of 8 billion people we have managed to secure a list of 50 persons from a webpage, and thanks btw Cartman, that was helpful.

But given that there are so few actual transgendered professional athletes I would most definitely leave it with each sporting body to deal with.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

km991148 wrote: »

and what if and what if and what if..

and what is a do-gooder anyway - just a bunch of people talking on the internet like?

Thanks now try answer the questions instead of deflecting.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

How do you know?

How do you know they would not be ok with a transwoman.

A woman who been raped by man will absolutely not want an man carrying out a rape examination on them regardless how that man self identifies as .

It's actually quite disgusting then to go back to calling people terfs ,

jam_mac_jam

LLMMLL wrote: »

How do you know?

How do you know they would not be ok with a transwoman.

Would they be ok with a transwoman who had no stereotypically masculine facial features?

Would they be bothered by a cis woman doctor who did have stereotypically masculine facial features?

It's amazing how TERFs will use rape vcitims as ammo in their debates. They have no regard for the victims as individuals.

Maybe they would be fine with a male doctor. Of course. Maybe they would be fine with a transwoman doctor.

Many women have no preference with doctors.

Sittingpretty

LLMMLL wrote: »

How do you know?

How do you know they would not be ok with a transwoman.

Would they be ok with a transwoman who had no stereotypically masculine facial features?

Would they be bothered by a cis woman doctor who did have stereotypically masculine facial features?

It's amazing how TERFs will use rape vcitims as ammo in their debates. They have no regard for the victims as individuals.

You REALLY hate women.

Worth the ban/warning.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

IAMAMORON wrote: »

What I meant is that your general tone is insinuating that non transgenders are somewhat different to transgenders and that coincidentally they have a universal right to decide on their future? I am not just talking about toilet facilities here either by the way, I think there are bigger issues at hand, particularly where it comes to gender identification and a humans' rights.

Am I misinterpreting your tone in this instance? Please advise.

Ah, that you think the whole issue of female spaces isn’t a big issue. Must be nice to be in the position of thinking that their erosion isn’t that important. That’s exactly what I’m concerned about. What “bigger issues” are you talking about? Please, elaborate.

IAMAMORON

Smacruairi wrote: »

Definition of bad faith argument. You asked for a list of trans athletes. You were given one. Jesus.

I am just trying to establish the argument?

A list of 50 or so transgendered athletes is very very small beans considering the discussion at hand.

Gervais08

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I honestly don't feel it is that much of an issue either. Yes there will be examples of transgenders playing sports, but that does not mean they need their own Olympics just yet either? There simply is not that many at a professional level, granted in a world of 8 billion people we have managed to secure a list of 50 persons from a webpage, and thanks btw Cartman, that was helpful.

But given that there are so few actual transgendered professional athletes I would most definitely leave it with each sporting body to deal with.

Transgender activists got probably the greatest woman athlete ever - and massive gay and lesbian advocate - Martina Navratilova kicked off a governing body.

Don’t tell me they have no sway in elite sport.

km991148

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Thanks now try answer the questions instead of deflecting.

Your questing is ridiculous - but wait - let me go and ask my imaginary 16 year old daughter how she feels about using the imaginary swimming pool that doesn't have a communal changing room. And then I will put my imaginary feelings on it.

Can you give me more details about this 50 year old? Are we talking convicted sex offender or just some nice old lady who used to be a man?

That's not deflection, that's calling out made up stuff. How can you expect anyone to take this seriously?

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am just trying to establish the argument?

A list of 50 or so transgendered athletes is very very small beans considering the discussion at hand.

You asked for a list.
You got a list.

Now you've a problem with the list.

IAMAMORON

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Ah, that you think the whole issue of female spaces isn’t a big issue. Must be nice to be in the position of thinking that their erosion isn’t that important. That’s exactly what I’m concerned about. What “bigger issues” are you talking about? Please, elaborate.

The fact that you refuse to admit that transgenders are entitled to equal rights for starters?

Eric Cartman

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am just trying to establish the argument?

A list of 50 or so transgendered athletes is very very small beans considering the discussion at hand.

what percentage of the general population ever become notable athletes ? less than 0.1% ?

how many trans athletes would you need for it to be a 'fair example'
those goal posts are going to fall apart if you shift them anymore.

ingalway

km991148 wrote: »

Surely the prison situation has to be taken on a case by case basis.

At one end of the extreme you have someone convicted of a crime (sexual or otherwise) and literally the next day decide to identify as a gender more appropriate to the opposite sex.
At the other end, someone who has done so for years (taken hormones the lot).

In the male to female case, surely then the strength argument etc doesn't apply (in the later case)?

I would have thought this much is obvious, hence why I was talking about the difference between individual cases and generalisations earlier.

That is exactly the problem with all of this - Self ID.

No meaningful attempts whatsoever needed to proclaim yourself the opposite sex. Anyone, for any reason, without ever seeing a doctor, a counsellor, taken a hormone or even bothered to shave their beard can declare themselves a woman. Crazy, open to massive abuse therefore dangerous.
Trans people have lived with us for years and I think most decent people have tried to be accepting of them. Those that lived in their preferred way, often in difficult situations and taking much bravery, had to spend a lengthy time doing that to see how it worked for them, they had to receive counselling before then going on to get medical support - hormonal/surgical - if that was appropriate for them.

Those people are not the same as someone who signs a one page form and gets a Gender Recognition Cert in the post.

Self ID, I believe, is terrible for everyone.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Rodin wrote: »

Chances are the poster has never even met a transperson never mind had one as a doctor.
The discussion around the topic is completely at odds with its prevalence.

I have actually.

Again, the ‘rareness’ thing. How does that matter to the person it’s happening to?

LLMMLL

km991148 wrote: »

Your questing is ridiculous - but wait - let me go and ask my imaginary 16 year old daughter how she feels about using the imaginary swimming pool that doesn't have a communal changing room. And then I will put my imaginary feelings on it.

Can you give me more details about this 50 year old? Are we talking convicted sex offender or just some nice old lady who used to be a man?

That's not deflection, that's calling out made up stuff. How can you expect anyone to take this seriously?

It doesn't even make sense. Why choose a 50 year.old man to make their argument. Are people in their 50s supposed to be more pervy or something?

Sir Oxman

LLMMLL wrote: »

I have to say it's nice to see the support for trans people on this new thread. I know they'll all eventually be chased away like in the old thread but for now it's quite lovely.

There was always a majority opinion on the old thread that genuine dysphoric people need support.
People opposing an opposite view does not equate to being 'anti-trans' no matter how much the conversation is constantly pushed in that direction.
One person chased themselves away from the 'old thread' and it's there for all to see in the feedback/helpdesk place.
Different viewpoints and debating points are always welcome, deliberate disruption isn't.

IAMAMORON

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

You asked for a list.
You got a list.

Now you've a problem with the list.

I think in a world of 8 billion people, using a list of 50 transgendered persons who play sport is not highly relevant on the argument as a whole?

There are instances of professional sportspersons who are transgendered but they are not material to any pertaining arguments on transgender.

I can fit 50 people on half a badminton court, it is not a big number.

Put simply it will not do as any whataboutery when it comes to the human rights of transgenders, nor should it. Most transgenders aren't even playing sport.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

How would you know if it was a trans person searching you? Would you ask woman with stereotypically masculine facial features to confirm she is a cis woman?

The women competing against Hannah Mouncey know they are a trans person.
The women charged with supervising Barbie Kardashian in social care knew they are a trans person.
The women imprisoned and sexually assaulted by Karen White knew they are a trans person.
The women sued for not waxing Yaniv knew they are a transperson.
The girls who lost out on University sports scholarships to Cece Telfer or Andraya Yearwood knew they are trans girls.
The women whose rape crises centre was defunded in Vancouver as a result of vindictive action by Morgane Oger know Oger is a trans person.

It is not as hard as you imagine to spot the people taking the piss.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The fact that you refuse to admit that transgenders are entitled to equal rights for starters?

Direct me to where I have said that. The quote, please.

Sittingpretty

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I think in a world of 8 billion people, using a list of 50 transgendered persons who play sport is not highly relevant on the argument as a whole?

There are instances of professional sportspersons who are transgendered but they are not material to any pertaining arguments on transgender.

I can fit 50 people on half a badminton court, it is not a big number.

Put simply it will not do as any whataboutery when it comes to the human rights of transgenders, nor should it. Most transgenders aren't even playing sport.

And how many girls or women do you think those 50 men identifying as women have ousted from teams/competitions because they’re to weak at their chosen sport to compete within their own sex so they have to identify as women to use their biological advantage to win something?

IAMAMORON

Eric Cartman wrote: »

what percentage of the general population ever become notable athletes ? less than 0.1% ?

how many trans athletes would you need for it to be a 'fair example'
those goal posts are going to fall apart if you shift them anymore.

There is no argument.

A list of 50 professional sportspersons who also are transgendered has no argument on their basic rights , at all.

No goal posts have been moved, what is your argument?

Eric Cartman

IAMAMORON wrote: »

There is no argument.

A list of 50 professional sportspersons who also are transgendered has no argument on their basic rights , at all.

No goal posts have been moved, what is your argument?

you're the one who asked for a list....