Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Dante7

Just a reminder that humans can't change sex. Biological sex is binary and immutable. The whole trans cult debate is based on this simple scientific fact being incorrect. Society must stand firm to protect truth and facts. If we are forced to renounce science and lie about reality we end up with convicted sex offenders in women's prisons with a reporting blackout.

Gruffalux

I have not heard of this lady before, Renee Gerlich. A feminist writer from New Zealand. When I gave this 10 minute talk a listen I found I agreed with a lot of what she theorises, in the sense of her presenting an over-arching idea of a global corporatism that has hijacked or domesticated the left. Everything becomes a commodity. Sex. The body. The biological reality of sex is ploughed under to sow the more profitable crop of gender identity. The fake propaganda of freedom where we are all captured by an ever smaller number of huge global corporations who decide what we are allowed to believe or say. The massive pornographication of the civilisation alongside the movement to make inherently abusive prostitution not only an acceptable commodity to be traded but also desirable labour for people with the idiotic neologism "sex work".

I do not agree with everything she argues or proposes but I do think she manages to illustrate that all of this gender theory ideology is taking place within a wider reality - she calls it neo liberalism. It is really a way to make us all mere consumers. Not free humans even though the rhetoric is couched in social justice etc.

Interested to hear what some others think..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3GlmyQ1Y2s

Gruffalux

Note - I think her thesis holds without the insertion of omnipresent rape culture or sexual entitlement, which she includes in her arguments. I think objectification occurs via pornography, commodification can and has happened without the notion of a pervasive toxic masculinity. After all boys and men have also been to a large extent commodified and objectified in a strange body culture. And boys are also experiencing gender dysphoria, not to mention areas like sissy porn and some feminine homosexuals being persuaded by social media and enculturation that they are actually the opposite sex.

It is the over-arching theme of domestication of human rights /left wing movements by global corporations that I find most compelling - and the chopping up of biological reality because something other is more profitable

silverharp

Gruffalux wrote: »

Note - I think her thesis holds without the insertion of omnipresent rape culture or sexual entitlement, which she includes in her arguments. I think objectification occurs via pornography, commodification can and has happened without the notion of a pervasive toxic masculinity. After all boys and men have also been to a large extent commodified and objectified in a strange body culture. And boys are also experiencing gender dysphoria, not to mention areas like sissy porn and some feminine homosexuals being persuaded by social media and enculturation that they are actually the opposite sex.

It is the over-arching theme of domestication of human rights /left wing movements by global corporations that I find most compelling - and the chopping up of biological reality because something other is more profitable

the profit motive concept is interesting though I cant see it in the trans case. I can understand how corporates want an army of single childless women who are willing to put their corporate existence ahead of their personal lives but I don't see this as clearly for trans. For one thing there are so few trans people that as a consumer market or labour market they wouldn't move the needle.
We seem to be in the middle of a hysteria between one thing or another and corporates tend to play it safe so they are just playing along?

Gruffalux

silverharp wrote: »

the profit motive concept is interesting though I cant see it in the trans case. I can understand how corporates want an army of single childless women who are willing to put their corporate existence ahead of their personal lives but I don't see this as clearly for trans. For one thing there are so few trans people that as a consumer market or labour market they wouldn't move the needle.
We seem to be in the middle of a hysteria between one thing or another and corporates tend to play it safe so they are just playing along?

That is possible - the playing it safe, though there is a growing market in puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgeries from mastectomies, facial feminisation, bottom surgeries. A projected 25% increase in the next 5 or 6 years according to link below. Also therapists, counselling, gender consultants etc. If there has been a 4000% increase in girls coming out as transmen that is a growing market. Even in terms of fashion, clothes, accessories, prosthetics, there is a potential growth market -https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/sex-reassignment-surgery-market

But this ploughing under of biological sex to grow gender identity applies to people who are not trans also - it is about commodification of body parts especially in terms of hyper-sexualisation, so more surgical intervention on people's bodies generally. A Mr Potato Head approach to the human body which could be big business going forward. Way beyond the huge cosmetic and beauty and diet industry. More way to be dissatisfied and exploitable.




https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/sex-reassignment-surgery-market
https://fortune.com/2015/05/21/transgender-retail-growing/


Now I have watched the recent chat the founders of LGB Alliance UK had relating to Gay Men and Gender Theory Ideology. It was hosted by Simon Fanshawe who is entertaining. Once again I am amazed at how pleasant and amiable are these far-right, secretly funded by religious zealots, hate-mongering monsters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESLURet1PFg

silverharp

Gruffalux wrote: »

That is possible - the playing it safe, though there is a growing market in puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgeries from mastectomies, facial feminisation, bottom surgeries. A projected 25% increase in the next 5 or 6 years according to link below. Also therapists, counselling, gender consultants etc. If there has been a 4000% increase in girls coming out as transmen that is a growing market. Even in terms of fashion, clothes, accessories, prosthetics, there is a potential growth market -https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/sex-reassignment-surgery-market

There is certainly a grifting market by NGO's so I would certainly agree from that angle and it creates a squeaky wheel affect

ingalway

This is breathtaking. Amnesty stating that there is no such thing as biological sex

https://twitter.com/dontshamewomen/status/1332662089056464899?s=20

Gruffalux

ingalway wrote: »

This is breathtaking. Amnesty stating that there is no such thing as biological sex

https://twitter.com/dontshamewomen/status/1332662089056464899?s=20

It is breath-taking. We are in cloud cuckoo land. One of the chaps on the video earlierthere says he is told he is not a homosexual but a homo-genitalist.

Cxlm X Gxrmxn is such a bad lad :pac: I disemvowel him as punishment.

Sir Oxman

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I have to ask, just to clear this up once and for all, how am I, in your opinion, misrepresenting the facts in the case taken by Maya Forstater against her employers for discrimination against her on the grounds of her beliefs?
<snip>

.

I'm taking it from the mod post this chat is now offtopic - Forstater directly relates to what occurred with Rowling who is now offtopic

I honestly don't have the will or time to go back through the old thread and this one and re-quote you, I've already done that and really don't want another multi page back and forth.

suicide_circus

ingalway wrote: »

This is breathtaking. Amnesty stating that there is no such thing as biological sex

https://twitter.com/dontshamewomen/status/1332662089056464899?s=20

Flat Earthers.

One eyed Jack

Sir Oxman wrote: »

I'm taking it from the mod post this chat is now offtopic - Forstater directly relates to what occurred with Rowling who is now offtopic

No it doesn’t? Forstater relates to the idea of whether or not gender critical beliefs meet the Grainger test and therefore whether or not they are protected by U.K. legislation. It’s a matter of law, not just a matter of one person’s opinions.

If, and it’s certainly possible that she might, given I think the case is more about publicity than the possibility she could win her case, but IF she takes her case to the ECHR, any decision in the case could also have an impact on Irish law, whether that be in terms of freedom of expression, or protected beliefs under equality legislation, or the right of people who are transgender to be protected from discrimination.

Sir Oxman wrote: »

I honestly don't have the will or time to go back through the old thread and this one and re-quote you, I've already done that and really don't want another multi page back and forth.

Then just say that, instead of avoiding it by making out like your hands were tied by a completely separate issue which using your logic and interpretation would mean that the whole thread relates to something which is off the table and therefore nobody can talk about what the thread is actually about. Circular logic, but ok then. I’ll leave it there too rather than press you on it. I wasn’t interested in a re-hash of anything.

Gruffalux

Don't know if this is true or not but perhaps?

https://twitter.com/feline_charm/status/1331939936287723523?s=20

Aside from large issue re haemoglobin I believe it is not good for males to have blood transfusions from females who have ever given birth. 13% higher risk of death in next 3 years.

https://www.livescience.com/60702-blood-transfusions-women-men.html

There may be other issues.

jam_mac_jam

Gruffalux wrote: »

That is possible - the playing it safe, though there is a growing market in puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgeries from mastectomies, facial feminisation, bottom surgeries. A projected 25% increase in the next 5 or 6 years according to link below. Also therapists, counselling, gender consultants etc. If there has been a 4000% increase in girls coming out as transmen that is a growing market. Even in terms of fashion, clothes, accessories, prosthetics, there is a potential growth market -https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/sex-reassignment-surgery-market

But this ploughing under of biological sex to grow gender identity applies to people who are not trans also - it is about commodification of body parts especially in terms of hyper-sexualisation, so more surgical intervention on people's bodies generally. A Mr Potato Head approach to the human body which could be big business going forward. Way beyond the huge cosmetic and beauty and diet industry. More way to be dissatisfied and exploitable.




https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/sex-reassignment-surgery-market
https://fortune.com/2015/05/21/transgender-retail-growing/


Now I have watched the recent chat the founders of LGB Alliance UK had relating to Gay Men and Gender Theory Ideology. It was hosted by Simon Fanshawe who is entertaining. Once again I am amazed at how pleasant and amiable are these far-right, secretly funded by religious zealots, hate-mongering monsters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESLURet1PFg

That was a really interesting discussion and I hate to say I haven't really considered the opinion of gay men or men in the discussion at all. They came across as very reasonable and that was quite thought provoking.

Especially their point that homophobia hasn't gone away. I suppose I am also guilty of this and assuming everyone thinks like me or my circle.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ingalway wrote: »

This is breathtaking. Amnesty stating that there is no such thing as biological sex

https://twitter.com/dontshamewomen/status/1332662089056464899?s=20

Makes sense. Sure, I have no idea which one of my parents gave birth to me. It’s a mystery. I think they did “eeny meeny miney mo” to decide who would gestate.

Gruffalux

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Makes sense. Sure, I have no idea which one of my parents gave birth to me. It’s a mystery. I think they did “eeny meeny miney mo” to decide who would gestate.

From the Amnesty-supported letter

Even now, transgender people continue to work for reforms that will increase the rights of gay and lesbian parents in surrogacy and adoption.

Have you noticed how an idea of surrogacy as a shared labour for the collective has crept in? Sophie Lewis wrote an extraordinary book advocating for this.

I bet Amnesty and Teni and the NCWI know exactly which sex provides the wombs that will provide the surrogacy services.

Dante7

Gruffalux wrote: »

From the Amnesty-supported letter




Have you noticed how an idea of surrogacy as a shared labour for the collective has crept in? Sophie Lewis wrote an extraordinary book advocating for this.

I bet Amnesty and Teni and the NCWI know exactly which sex provides the wombs that will provide the surrogacy services.

Just laying the groundwork for the use of cheap, foreign broodmares to act as surrogates for them.

Gruffalux

Ugh..

mohawk

Gruffalux wrote: »

From the Amnesty-supported letter




Have you noticed how an idea of surrogacy as a shared labour for the collective has crept in? Sophie Lewis wrote an extraordinary book advocating for this.

I bet Amnesty and Teni and the NCWI know exactly which sex provides the wombs that will provide the surrogacy services.

I am increasingly uncomfortable with the push for surrogacy. Who are going to be the surrogates? Poor women?

It’s amazing how they all know biological sex is real when they want something.

Gruffalux

Dante7 wrote: »

Just laying the groundwork for the use of cheap, foreign broodmares to act as surrogates for them.

My honest opinion is people are not that low. I saw that suggestion elsewhere - to me it is not a runner in any way as any motivation. It would be too bad. I think these people are not bad - just very dogmatic believers.


Edit - to clarify what I mean here, the suggestion elsewhere was that the immigrant NGOs signed the letter and that the surrogate women would be the immigrants ushered in to Ireland. I know that women are used abroad for surrogacy.

Dante7

Dante7 wrote: »

Just laying the groundwork for the use of cheap, foreign broodmares to act as surrogates for them.

Under his eye.

Gruffalux

mohawk wrote: »

I am increasingly uncomfortable with the push for surrogacy. Who are going to be the surrogates? Poor women?

It’s amazing how they all know biological sex is real when they want something.

Not ''going to be'' but already are. It is a big industry in places like India, Ukraine, Georgia, Russia, parts of south America. There are stories about dorms of surrogates being kept fattened in places like India. It is poor women who do it now mostly. It has been amazing how surrogacy has been wrapped up as a cuddly sparkly phenomenon, with people oooohing and aaaahhhing about surrogate babies. Given that pregnancy is a dangerous and liminal experience for every single women who ever does it, it is indefensible. C-sections are routine in spite of the additional danger. But the desire to have one's own ''genetic'' baby / ''theyby'' via surrogacy trumps that reality.

Gruffalux

Biological sex is real.

https://twitter.com/RexChapman/status/1332362582586515457?s=20

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gruffalux wrote: »

From the Amnesty-supported letter




Have you noticed how an idea of surrogacy as a shared labour for the collective has crept in? Sophie Lewis wrote an extraordinary book advocating for this.

I bet Amnesty and Teni and the NCWI know exactly which sex provides the wombs that will provide the surrogacy services.

Dante7 wrote: »

Just laying the groundwork for the use of cheap, foreign broodmares to act as surrogates for them.

mohawk wrote: »

I am increasingly uncomfortable with the push for surrogacy. Who are going to be the surrogates? Poor women?

It’s amazing how they all know biological sex is real when they want something.

Surrogacy is one of those things that I fully admit I had never really thought much about until the last few years. I had vague “Oh, that’s nice” thoughts about it. But when you think about, it is fraught with ethical issues.

- potential health issues for the mother (yes, maternal health has greatly improved but some women do suffer long-term effects from pregnancy, even today)
- what happens if the foetus is not fully healthy? What happens if the prospective parents reject the baby?
- what drives women to put their body through so much for somebody else? If money is the driving force, isn’t that worrying?
- how much control do the prospective parents have over the life of the surrogate? Can they comment on her lifestyle?

And here is the really harsh part - nobody is entitled to have biological children. Many people miss out on that. It’s not actually a right. I can’t ever get pregnant. That’s just how it is.

ceadaoin.

ingalway wrote: »

This is breathtaking. Amnesty stating that there is no such thing as biological sex

https://twitter.com/dontshamewomen/status/1332662089056464899?s=20

No such thing as a biologically female body, yet somehow its known which group of people to force to menstrual huts, to perform FGM on, to shun if they are injured during childbirth, to cover their bodies and faces, to force into child marriage, deny an education etc etc. Someone needs to tell those women and girls around the world that they can identify out of their abuse, that their biology has absolutely nothing to do with how they are treated. Maybe amnesty should start a campaign to enlighten them? I'm sure that would go well.

Absolute rubbish

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

Have you noticed how an idea of surrogacy as a shared labour for the collective has crept in? Sophie Lewis wrote an extraordinary book advocating for this.

I hadn’t even finished the review you linked to before I ordered the book!

Honestly it sounds like a really compelling and thought-provoking read. I’m not going to delve into the whole area here because it’s an incredibly complex area IMO and would go to some very strange places, especially with regards to surrogacy for people in relationships where one or both of the parents are transgender and would wish to start a family and what their options are now, and what their options may be at some point in the future.

It’s available on Amazon for about €17, couldn’t pass it up for that price!

Gruffalux

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I hadn’t even finished the review you linked to before I ordered the book!

Honestly it sounds like a really compelling and thought-provoking read. I’m not going to delve into the whole area here because it’s an incredibly complex area IMO and would go to some very strange places, especially with regards to surrogacy for people in relationships where one or both of the parents are transgender and would wish to start a family and what their options are now, and what their options may be at some point in the future.

It’s available on Amazon for about €17, couldn’t pass it up for that price!

It should be right up your street.
You can follow it up by reading her wusband's even more cretinous book 'In Defense of Looting' - Victoria Osterweil.

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And here is the really harsh part - nobody is entitled to have biological children. Many people miss out on that. It’s not actually a right. I can’t ever get pregnant. That’s just how it is.

It is?


It’s covered under Article 8 of the ECHR which refers to the right to respect for private and family life. Reproductive rights starts on page 28 -


Guide on Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

It should be right up your street.
You can follow it up by reading her wusband's even more cretinous book 'In Defense of Looting' - Victoria Osterweil.

I’ll pass on that one all the same, there aren’t any compelling arguments for encouraging people to be uncivil, even less so when their arguments are an obvious attempt to disguise their contempt for other people in arguments about rights.

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It is?


It’s covered under Article 8 of the ECHR which refers to the right to respect for private and family life. Reproductive rights starts on page 28 -


Guide on Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights

Where does that say its a human right to have a biological child, if the couple are unable to naturally? I see a part about a right to access medical treatment ("medically assisted procreation") to aid fertility but nothing specifically saying they should have the right to use a surrogate to gestate their child. Im not sure they would go so far as to mandate the use of another person's body. They would also have their own set of human rights to be concerned with too of course.

Gatling

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Where does that say its a human right to have a biological child, if the couple are unable to naturally? I see a part about a right to access medical treatment ("medically assisted procreation") to aid fertility but nothing specifically saying they should have the right to use a surrogate to gestate their child. Im not sure they would go so far as to mandate the use of another person's body. They would also have their own set of human rights to be concerned with too of course.

Maybe they will make women prisoners become gestational carriers as part of their sentences