Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

There's an ongoing case in Australia where a 15 Year old was taken into care claimed there parents won't let them transition ,
Now authorities want to start the 15 Year old on puberty blockers to start the transition process , parents are firmly saying no and they want 2nd opinions on medical and psychology ,
They want their child to be treated for depression and self harming in a non evasive manner as possible ,

The child can't return home as they claim they face mental torture not being allowed to transition


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theaustralian.com.au/nation/parents-grief-as-trans-teenager-taken-into-care/news-story/45462227e3b87702370fe4e0a95885cd

That link is behind a paywall, this link has more of the story -

Parents grief as ‘trans teenager’ taken into care

I could see similar cases happening here when the Irish electorate voted to pass the Children’s Referendum.

(To be clear - it had nothing to do specifically with any “trans lobby”, there were entirely different lobby groups campaigning for the CR)

Second lowest turnout of the electorate for a referendum, the lowest was related to the referendum on refusing bail to a suspect where it was feared that while at liberty they would commit a serious offence. That passed by a majority at least.

Gatling

No child here should be ever be allowed to take puberty blockers or parents forced to allow them ,
Let them be Children and Make decisions when they are adults capable of making such a decisions


https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/11/30/trans-child-taken-into-care-after-parents-refused-to-acknowledge-their-gender-13675749/amp/

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

No child here should be ever be allowed to take puberty blockers or parents forced to allow them ,
Let them be Children and Make decisions when they care adults capable of making such a decision

I disagree. Parents have a responsibility to care for their children and make decisions for their children on their children’s behalf, and the State should never have been granted authority to put the boot in as flippantly as they do. That’s what leads to circumstances like the ones described in that article. My point is that it also happens in an Irish context which is what the thread is supposed to be about.

If it were determined by physicians that the child needed medical treatment which involved the use of hormone treatments, then that decision should ultimately be decided by the child’s parents, not the State.

It would also take the steam out of a lot of these calls on social media for children to be removed from their parents care just because some people get their knickers in a twist about children being raised by their parents according to values and beliefs that person is convinced are harmful.

Bonniedog

Saw a post from Anti Fascist Action the other day which brought a tear of derision to my eye.

It claimed that part of their "struggle" against the mythical fascists in our midst is to "oppose biological essentialism."

Yes. That is the sort of stuff now that motivated the men and women of the Warsaw Ghetto and Stalingrad and Omaha Beach.

Tired Gardener

Bonniedog wrote: »

Saw a post from Anti Fascist Action the other day which brought a tear of derision to my eye.

It claimed that part of their "struggle" against the mythical fascists in our midst is to "oppose biological essentialism."

Yes. That is the sort of stuff now that motivated the men and women of the Warsaw Ghetto and Stalingrad and Omaha Beach.

Biological essentialism can be a bad thing, it can be a doctrine that strips Women of their bodily autonomy, and force them into being breeding vessels. Which is most certainly something to oppose, and for very good reasons.

Bonniedog

Tired Gardener wrote: »

, it can be a doctrine that strips Women of their bodily autonomy, and force them into being breeding vessels. .

The only states that have condemned women to such a status are totalitarian regimes which share the woke fallacy that everything is a "social construct" including the biological difference between men and women.

There is no sane person outside of a North korean or IS camp advocating the forcing of women into being "breeding vessels"!!

And you don't hear too many on the woke left condemning eitheer of those for fear they might be depicted as racist/Islamophobic/far right etc, etc.

Dante7

Kiera Bell won her case. This will have an impact on Irish children who have been referred to Tavistock. No puberty blockers for under 16s and a court order needed for 16 and 17 year olds.

https://twitter.com/ObjectUK/status/1333742452642099201?s=20

https://twitter.com/ObjectUK/status/1333742690517872641?s=20

Gruffalux

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-cambridgeshire-55144148


Thank goodness.

Gruffalux

And one of the reasons cited was the very poor data from Tavistock especially given the experimental nature. Unbelievable how some are mourning this glimpse of light and sense in the treatment of minors.

Gatling

Well done judges ,well done

Hqrry113

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Transwomen aren't woman as they are biologically male.

/endofthread

They need to get a grip it's a simple as that

Dante7

Some important language used in the ruling. "Perceived identity" used instead of gender identity. Preach it! Saying that in the workplace could get you sacked.

Gatling

Dante7 wrote: »

Some important language used in the ruling. "Perceived identity" used instead of gender identity. Preach it! Saying that in the workplace could get you sacked.

Absolutely, don't be surprised if they try to have any mention of the ruling removed ,be interested to see it any of the mainstream media run with it

One eyed Jack

Dante7 wrote: »

Kiera Bell won her case. This will have an impact on Irish children who have been referred to Tavistock. No puberty blockers for under 16s and a court order needed for 16 and 17 year olds.

That’s not what the case was about, and that wasn’t the outcome either. The case was about informed consent as it relates to children based upon their age. It doesn’t say anything about hormone treatments themselves -


The judges said their decision was only on the informed consent of a child or a young person, not whether puberty blockers were appropriate themselves.

The ruling said: "The court is not deciding on the benefits or disbenefits of treating children with GD (gender dysphoria) with PBs, whether in the long or short term."


It’s true this decision will have an impact on Irish children referred to Tavistock, I’ve no idea what that impact will be, but one thing I know for certain is that the decision is more likely to create more cases like the Australian case linked to earlier in the thread, rather than the expected opposite. I certainly wouldn’t be cheering on foot of this decision.

Hqrry113

Men who think they're women is now a common thing, what's next men who think they're children? How long until that becomes accepted? Transgender men showing up to little girls birthday parties it's only a matter of time

suicide_circus

Hqrry113 wrote: »

Men who think they're women is now a common thing, what's next men who think they're children? How long until that becomes accepted? Transgender men showing up to little girls birthday parties it's only a matter of time

We need to fight this bigoted Chronological Essentialism!

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I certainly wouldn’t be cheering on foot of this decision.

There's always one .

Maybe we can stop sending children from here to tavistock all together ,I'd rather they got s full assessment of needs to see if there is evidence of ASD /Asperger's first ,and if there is no push for transitions as they may not be capable of making a life changing decision they would have long lasting effects

Dante7

First Irish media coverage

https://twitter.com/radionova100/status/1333752401711554560?s=20

Sir Oxman

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-55144148

"In a ruling, Dame Victoria Sharp, sitting with Lord Justice Lewis and Mrs Justice Lieven, said: "It is highly unlikely that a child aged 13 or under would be competent to give consent to the administration of puberty blockers.

"It is doubtful that a child aged 14 or 15 could understand and weigh the long-term risks and consequences of the administration of puberty blockers."

They added: "In respect of young persons aged 16 and over, the legal position is that there is a presumption that they have the ability to consent to medical treatment.

"Given the long-term consequences of the clinical interventions at issue in this case, and given that the treatment is as yet innovative and experimental, we recognise that clinicians may well regard these as cases where the authorisation of the court should be sought prior to commencing the clinical treatment."

Full judgment on judiciary.uk website

Gruffalux

Tavistock staff have been travelling to treat Irish children in Crumlin hospital. Its not just the ones who went to UK clinic. Irish senior doctors were objecting to the treatment.

TomTomTim

Hqrry113 wrote: »

Men who think they're women is now a common thing, what's next men who think they're children? How long until that becomes accepted? Transgender men showing up to little girls birthday parties it's only a matter of time

It's already a thing. Some grown man, who identifies as a child, left his family and was adopted by an older couple. I think it was in Canada or America. There's also many weirdos who identify as animals, and there was that lunatic who identifies as blind, who got a doctor to make her blind. This is why orthodoxy should be followed, because when it isn't insanity spirals out of control.

mohawk

Dante7 wrote: »

Some important language used in the ruling. "Perceived identity" used instead of gender identity. Preach it! Saying that in the workplace could get you sacked.

I saw that and they didn’t go down the sex assigned at birth route either.

I wonder if there will be compensation cases taken now.

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

There's always one .

Maybe we can stop sending children from here to tavistock all together ,I'd rather they got s full assessment of needs to see if there is evidence of ASD /Asperger's first ,and if there is no push for transitions as they may not be capable of making a life changing decision they would have long lasting effects

No, this isn’t a “there’s always one” thing or anything like it. This decision makes it that much more difficult for parents who do not wish for their child to undergo any sort of treatments for conditions they don’t believe their children have, such as gender dysphoria or autism or any of the myriad of other conditions which are used to pathologise children’s behaviour.

One outcome of this decision is that the numbers of parents in the UK will simply take their children to be treated in other countries, another outcome will be a surge in hormones ordered over the Internet. It won’t have the chilling effect many of it’s cheerleaders are thinking it will.

I won’t even bother to address the attempted correlation between autism and gender dysphoria or sexual orientation and gender dysphoria because there is insufficient evidence to show any causative link, it only amounts to speculation among armchair psychologists. I’ve seen plenty of that too where professionals if they aren’t of the opinion that the child has any particular need, they’ll create one, or they’ll create one under pressure from the child’s parents, who are invariably of the “let kids be kids” variety, which just happens, by sheer coincidence mind, to coincide with their ‘diagnosis’ of the child or children in question.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, this isn’t a “there’s always one” thing or anything like it. This decision makes it that much more difficult for parents who do not wish for their child to undergo any sort of treatments for conditions they don’t believe their children have, such as gender dysphoria or autism or any of the myriad of other conditions which are used to pathologise children’s behaviour.

There is no treatments for autism ,there is supports in education , psychology , occupational therapy , speech and language therapy , which can continue into adulthood
No parent is forced to allow their child to have treatments based off off behaviour .
What a silly thing to say

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

There is no treatments for autism ,there is supports in education , psychology , occupational therapy , speech and language therapy ,
No parent is forced to allow their child to have treatments based off off behaviour .
What a silly thing to say

You know exactly what I’m saying all the same. I didn’t suggest there was any treatment for autism, I was making the point about it’s over-diagnosis in the first place, that it’s on a ‘spectrum’, that ASD is an umbrella term for conditions identified as ‘Asperger Syndrome’, etc, and people using terms like ‘aspie’, now a condition for the whole family (can’t find the article from the Irish Times now but it was an interview with a mother who was married to a man diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, she was diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, and all their children were... you guessed it!).

EDIT: I misremembered, it wasn’t the Irish Times, it was the other rag, the Irish Independent -


Our three kids all have Asperger's – just like me and my husband


I also didn’t say that any parents were forced to allow their children to have treatments based off their behaviour. I specifically made the point that it is contingent upon being diagnosed by a professional*, and when a professional makes a diagnosis, the parents decision making capacity comes secondary to what are determined by professionals and in some cases the Courts where the parents are of a different opinion, as to their own children’s best interests. The Courts will give more weight to the opinions of the professionals as opposed to the parents in terms of the child’s welfare.


*Before you say it, I’m aware that a diagnosis is not necessary in order to apply for some types of assistance.

keano_afc

Really excellent news.

I'd be very interested to hear what our Children's Minister makes of the decision.

Sir Oxman

keano_afc wrote: »

Really excellent news.

I'd be very interested to hear what our Children's Minister makes of the decision.

And the Health minister/dept, like what backup plans did they have for such a scenario - carry on nothing to see here or put in the proper full supports in Ireland.

keano_afc

Sir Oxman wrote: »

And the Health minister/dept, like what backup plans did they have for such a scenario - carry on nothing to see here or put in the proper full supports in Ireland.

Eh, the first one.

One eyed Jack

Sir Oxman wrote: »

And the Health minister/dept, like what backup plans did they have for such a scenario - carry on nothing to see here or put in the proper full supports in Ireland.

It’s impossible to determine the impact for patients in Ireland, I don’t know what the Minister might say, but PinkNews, of all media outlets, has the most accurate take on today’s judgement and what the case was actually about -


Trans kids must understand risks of hormone therapy to receive life-saving puberty blockers, judge rules in landmark case

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Trans kids must understand risks of hormone therapy to receive life-saving puberty blockers, judge rules in landmark case[/url]

Receive life saving - there's absolutely nothing life saving about them .
They cause long term and permanent damage only pro trans outlet would run such a misleading headline