Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Frankie Machine

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s impossible to determine the impact for patients in Ireland, I don’t know what the Minister might say, but PinkNews, of all media outlets, has the most accurate take on today’s judgement and what the case was actually about -


Trans kids must understand risks of hormone therapy to receive life-saving puberty blockers, judge rules in landmark case

'Life-saving' puberty blockers.

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Receive life saving - there's absolutely nothing life saving about them .
They cause long term and permanent damage only pro trans outlet would run such a misleading headline

In your opinion, which is fair enough, but it’s not any different than looking at any issue and only assessing the negative aspects of it without examining the positives. Obviously then you’re going to conclude that it causes long term damage, whereas the idea is long term healthy outcomes for the patient. They’re a child now, but they will become an adult, and it’s a known fact whether we like it or not that the earlier their transition, the better the outcomes in terms of their overall health are as adults.

In reality the treatment is no different to any other treatment that a child must undergo if they are diagnosed with with a condition. There’s no way to be able to foretell any specific outcomes in individual cases, but looking at overall outcomes yields positive outcomes. And before you bring up detransitioners, remember that they are a minority within a minority it is claimed are evidence that the process is faulty. It’s no different than some advocates of transgender ideology using people with developmental sexual disorders to bolster their arguments in favour of transgender ideology.

Gruffalux

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They’re a child now, but they will become an adult, and it’s a known fact whether we like it or not that the earlier their transition, the better the outcomes in terms of their overall health are as adults.

In reality the treatment is no different to any other treatment that a child must undergo if they are diagnosed with with a condition. There’s no way to be able to foretell any specific outcomes in individual cases, but looking at overall outcomes yields positive outcomes. And before you bring up detransitioners, remember that they are a minority within a minority it is claimed are evidence that the process is faulty. It’s no different than some advocates of transgender ideology using people with developmental sexual disorders to bolster their arguments in favour of transgender ideology.

Just stop. Falsehood after falsehood determinedly posted as if you are sitting atop the fountainhead of all truth.

It is NOT A KNOWN FACT that earlier transition equals better outcomes. Quite the opposite appears to be likely.
The treatment IS VASTLY DIFFERENT than any other treatment a child will undergo - it causes sterility and impotence in many cases for a start and not to mention intellectual retardation. It is a grossly dangerous and experimental treatment which now the High Court in the UK has called a halt to for minors.
Detransitioners - more pulling of some bullshyte minority within a minority ''facts'' out of your backside.

I do get fed up of the endless mendacious waffle.

That whole paragraph is a tissue of lies and inaccuracies.

Eric Cartman

Frankie Machine wrote: »

'Life-saving' puberty blockers.

Jesus wept, how to spell out an agenda in one turn of phrase

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

In your opinion, which is fair enough,

In medical facts they are not life saving ,not my opinion

Mic 1972

Frankie Machine wrote: »

'Life-saving' puberty blockers.

Actually a high % of transgenders commit suicide. Wonder how many of them would be saved if kept away from puberty blockers and surgery until they understand better who they are

Gruffalux

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Actually a high % of transgenders commit suicide. Wonder how many of them would be saved if kept away from puberty blockers and surgery until they understand better who they are

This is untrue.

Bonniedog

Massive blow to the deviants here who were promoting this nonsense.

Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition, the same as many others which afflict a tiny number of unfortunate children.

It should not be treated by going along with the fantasy no more than you would allow a child who thinks that their dog is telling them to kill Granny.

If they still feel the same way when they have grown up, then they can pursue their fantasy once it causes no harm to others. There is a reason why 18 is the common age for all sorts of things that are not encouraged in children. Good to see that some sanity exists still in the judiciary.

Mic 1972

Gruffalux wrote: »

This is untrue.

that's is true
are you familiar with google?

mohawk

Bonniedog wrote: »

Massive blow to the deviants here who were promoting this nonsense.

Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition, the same as many others which afflict a tiny number of unfortunate children.

It should not be treated by going along with the fantasy no more than you would allow a child who thinks that their dog is telling them to kill Granny.

If they still feel the same way when they have grown up, then they can pursue their fantasy once it causes no harm to others. There is a reason why 18 is the common age for all sorts of things that are not encouraged in children. Good to see that some sanity exists still in the judiciary.

Honestly whatever point you are making is lost because of the use of word deviant in this post.

Bonniedog

mohawk wrote: »

Honestly whatever point you are making is lost because of the use of word deviant in this post.

So how would you describe people who have no connection to a child who are promoting a massive life altering decision upon them for some weird ideological motive?

Gruffalux

mohawk wrote: »

Honestly whatever point you are making is lost because of the use of word deviant in this post.

This is true.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

It is NOT A KNOWN FACT that earlier transition equals better outcomes. Quite the opposite appears to be likely.

In terms of the patients overall healthcare, it is. That’s why the affirmative model is promoted and why social transition is being encouraged, in order to avoid the risks of medical transition, but then when they’re adults they face discrimination from people who aren’t on board with the affirmative model, which is the leading cause of their ill mental health, which obviously comes with its own pitfalls (like when the children are no longer cute in dresses and as grown men they want to continue to use the ladies toilets because they grew up being taught the idea of no boundaries).

Gruffalux wrote: »

The treatment IS VASTLY DIFFERENT than any other treatment a child will undergo - it causes sterility and impotence in many cases for a start and not to mention intellectual retardation.

Again, you’re missing the point, which is their overall healthcare, and you’re right, it’s best not to mention the “mental retardation” nonsense because that argument is nothing more than the same clutching at straws used to suggest that there is an underlying comorbidity of autism or some correlation with sexual orientation, as though if what you’re supposing were possible, then homosexual adults would not exist (walk it back, you’ll see the flaw in your own logic).

Gruffalux wrote: »

It is a grossly dangerous and experimental treatment which now the High Court in the UK has called a halt to for minors.

“Grossly dangerous” is nothing more than your opinion. Experimental treatment describes any form of treatment seeing as outcomes can never be guaranteed. I wouldn’t call childbirth an experimental treatment because of the numbers of women who die in childbirth, or the numbers of children who die soon after being born, but it’s more than the numbers of people who are transgender who die as a result of medical transition.

The UK has NOT called a halt to the treatment for minors either. That was not what the case was about. The case was about informed consent for minors if you want to put it in those terms - ensuring that they understood the consequences of any decision with regard to their healthcare. That’s not a bad thing in itself, but it won’t actually change anything. In the US they also have the same informed consent qualification, it’s a box ticking exercise, nothing more in practical terms.

Gruffalux wrote: »

Detransitioners - more pulling of some bullshyte minority within a minority ''facts'' out of your backside.

Is this the part where you feign ignorance of the fact that they have been used throughout numerous discussions about this issue in order to perpetuate fearmongering and suggest that the whole thing is wrong? Because I distinctly remember those conversations and the point being made repeatedly. Now it’s just some bullshyte minority I pulled out of my ass? I beg to differ, I was heading off that argument before it began, again.

The case today was about informed consent for all minors, not just those who are transgender.

suicide_circus

One eyed Jack wrote: »

people who aren’t on board with the affirmative model

Do you think these people do it out of spite and cruelty or because it's at odds with they're understanding of reality?

If you're mental wellbeing is dependant on the manner in which others perceive reality then youre on a hiding to nothing. It's an utterly ludicrous and unacheiveable standard to set and is doomed to failure.

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

In medical facts they are not life saving ,not my opinion

“In medical facts”, that phrase has no more legitimacy than “biological reality”. No, it’s your opinion, which differs from someone else’s, in particular the people who say their lives have been saved by these treatments.

mohawk

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Actually a high % of transgenders commit suicide. Wonder how many of them would be saved if kept away from puberty blockers and surgery until they understand better who they are

The suicide thing is tricky. There is a reason why we should always be careful about how we discuss suicide. It’s important not to highlight to an individual that they are at more at risk as they are then more likely to try it. This talk is dangerous to trans individuals.

There does seem to be some evidence that adults after surgically transitioning feel an initial high, however doesn’t seem to last and feelings of depression and dysphoria can return. More research in this area is vital if people are serious about the long term health of transgender people.

Bonniedog

mohawk wrote: »

The suicide thing is tricky. There is a reason why we should always be careful about how we discuss suicide. It’s important not to highlight to an individual that they are at more at risk as they are then more likely to try it. This talk is dangerous to trans individuals.

There does seem to be some evidence that adults after surgically transitioning feel an initial high, however doesn’t seem to last and feelings of depression and dysphoria can return. More research in this area is vital if people are serious about the long term health of transgender people.

Is it not rather more likely that the suicides are caused by someone who after "transitioning" realises that they have made a huge error?

All of us did stupid stuff when we were kids, but they rarely haunt the rest of our lives.

Judgement is common sense. A child is not capable of making such a decision, and if they do when they are legally of age, well then it's up to themselves.

Hqrry113

I'm really surprised at how this thread is going I was expecting to find mainly trans supporters and the odd one or two posters being referred to as bigots and being accused of "not being with the times" fair play to ya lads I say give these trannies a reality check

One eyed Jack

suicide_circus wrote: »

Do you think these people do it out of spite and cruelty or because it's at odds with they're understanding of reality?

If you're mental wellbeing is dependant on the manner in which others perceive reality then youre on a hiding to nothing. It's an utterly ludicrous and unacheiveable standard to set and is doomed to failure.

I think a tiny minority will do it out of spite and cruelty, particularly those people who will go out of their way to let people who are transgender know their opinions without being asked. BUT, I think for the vast, vast majority of people, it’s because they just can’t relate to the idea at all, and it feels like an imposition or an attempt to undermine their worldview, which obviously they’re going to resist, as would anyone when their worldview is challenged.

It’s true too what you say about if person’s mental well-being is dependent upon the manner in which others perceive reality, that person is on a hiding to nothing, so is there any point in telling people who believe they are who they are, that they’re not, and they can’t be, and they will never be who they say they are because it’s humanly impossible? That’s the equally ludicrous and unachievable standard that’s doomed to failure when you’re faced with a worldview which threatens your own. You’re dependent upon support from the majority to validate your worldview over theirs!

That’s why I’m not keen on the whole free speech thing. It’s clear that it’s proponents intend to use it as a weapon, and not for the intended purpose which was to give people freedom, not compel people to act as though they agree with the majority opinion.

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

In your opinion, which is fair enough, but it’s not any different than looking at any issue and only assessing the negative aspects of it without examining the positives. Obviously then you’re going to conclude that it causes long term damage, whereas the idea is long term healthy outcomes for the patient. They’re a child now, but they will become an adult, and it’s a known fact whether we like it or not that the earlier their transition, the better the outcomes in terms of their overall health are as adults.
.

We don't know that it leads to better outcomes as adults at all given that puberty blockers and hormones have only been used for this purpose in children in recent years. There hasn't been enough time to study the outcomes.

There has been enough time to study the outcomes of these same puberty blockers used on girls with precocious puberty though. Infertility, osteoporosis and other bone disorders are some of the verified long term, irreversible effects and the drug maker has been subjected to many lawsuits because of this. Does the child being trans erase these known side effects?

Also, what is known is that every single previous study of trans identified children has the same outcome - most (60-90%) dont identify as trans as adults and most grow up to be gay. So coupled with this evidence and the evidence of long term irreversible damage caused by these drugs, on what planet is medicating children for this a good idea?

Necro

Hqrry113 wrote: »

I'm really surprised at how this thread is going I was expecting to find mainly trans supporters and the odd one or two posters being referred to as bigots and being accused of "not being with the times" fair play to ya lads I say give these trannies a reality check

Mod:

Threadbanned

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

“In medical facts”, that phrase has no more legitimacy than “biological reality”.

No they are not considered life saving drugs not matter what you make up .



But only in your opinion are they

One eyed Jack

ceadaoin. wrote: »

We don't know that it leads to better outcomes as adults at all given that puberty blockers and hormones have only been used for this purpose in children in recent years. There hasn't been enough time to study the outcomes.

There has been enough time to study the outcomes of these same puberty blockers used on girls with precocious puberty though. Infertility, endometriosis, osteoporosis are some of the verified long term, irreversible effects and the drug maker has been subjected to many lawsuits because of this. Does the child being trans erase these known side effects?

Also, what is known is that every single previous study of trans identified children has the same outcome - most (60-90%) dont identify as trans as adults and most grow up to be gay. So coupled with this evidence and the evidence of long term irreversible damage caused by these drugs, on what planet is medicating children for this a good idea?

You’ll have to excuse me for saying so but that’s the anti-vaxxer approach to medicine.

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’ll have to excuse me for saying so but that’s the anti-vaxxer approach to medicine.

Lol ok

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

No they are not considered life saving drugs not matter what you make up .



But only in your opinion are they

This is the thing. It’s not MY opinion at all, I only copied and pasted it as the headline from an article from PinkNews in which MANY people who are transgender refer to it as life saving treatment. Personally, I couldn’t care less for the term whether they consider it life saving or not, I’m more interested in the overall net benefits of the various approaches and the value they offer. Telling people who are transgender that they aren’t who they say they are, only profers a net negative, as opposed to being of any value whatsoever. That’s why conversion therapy is being banned in many countries. If it were actually effective, it might have some validity as a treatment for gender dysphoria and a whole host of other conditions, except it’s not.

One eyed Jack

suicide_circus wrote: »

Huh? You're pretty verbose for someone opposed to free speech.

I’m referring to people who argue in favour of free speech. What they really mean is they want the freedom to be able to say what they like to whomever they like about whoever they don’t like, and that individual or group should just take it, and any response will be portrayed as their being ‘unreasonable’ and unwilling to ‘debate’.

Frankie Machine

mohawk wrote: »

Honestly whatever point you are making is lost because of the use of word deviant in this post.

No, I don't think so.

The Cambridge Dictionary defines deviant (adj.) as

used to describe a person or behaviour that is not usual and is generally considered to be unacceptable

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/deviant

It is fair to say that the consensus on this thread is that this topic is 'not usual', and also that it is 'unacceptable'.

We have had recourse to the dictionary in the context of 'adult human female'. It was good enough then, and is good enough now.

Lets not be squeamish just because the word has other connotations in other contexts.

The poster has the benefit of the doubt as to what they meant.


.

mohawk

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is the thing. It’s not MY opinion at all, I only copied and pasted it as the headline from an article from PinkNews in which MANY people who are transgender refer to it as life saving treatment. Personally, I couldn’t care less for the term whether they consider it life saving or not, I’m more interested in the overall net benefits of the various approaches and the value they offer. Telling people who are transgender that they aren’t who they say they are, only profers a net negative, as opposed to being of any value whatsoever. That’s why conversion therapy is being banned in many countries. If it were actually effective, it might have some validity as a treatment for gender dysphoria and a whole host of other conditions, except it’s not.

Who is advocating ‘conversion’ therapy because watchful waiting approach is not ‘conversion’ therapy. You are literally waiting to see if child grows out of it or not. If they grow out of it under watchful waiting no harm done. If they don’t grow out of it then as an adult they can decide how they want to proceed and they will be able to understand all potential side effects, possible risks and outcomes. Hopefully all through this they will have access to services for their mental health.

One eyed Jack

mohawk wrote: »

Who is advocating ‘conversion’ therapy because watchful waiting approach is not ‘conversion’ therapy. You are literally waiting to see if child grows out of it or not. If they grow out of it under watchful waiting no harm done. If they don’t grow out of it then as an adult they can decide how they want to proceed and they will be able to understand all potential side effects, possible risks and outcomes. Hopefully all through this they will have access to services for their mental health.

Plenty of people were and still are advocating conversion therapy, albeit by more subversive means as calling it “watchful waiting”, as though they’re hoping that the child will grow out of it, like many parents who would rather their children weren’t gay, etc. Pretending that the “cautious” approach addresses anything is nonsense, it’s literally avoiding the elephant in the room. Children, unlike plants, don’t have the capacity to wait around while the adults are humming and hawing and watchfully waiting. They require guidance throughout their development, and sometimes biology throws adults a curveball they weren’t expecting, like their children not being the perfect package that was meant to fulfil all their expectations. As their parents, it’s the parents responsibility to deal with it, not the child’s responsibility.

There is plenty of harm done btw by the “watchful waiting” approach, what do you imagine the child is supposed to do in the meantime while the adults figure their shìt out? I know where you’re coming from with the idea of having access to services for their mental health, but in this country the mental health system manages to fail spectacularly in regards to children’s mental health. In reality the responsibility for their children is ultimately on parents, and expecting parents to watch and wait while their children go through torture just to satisfy someone else’s ego is something that should never be expected of any parents.

Gruffalux

Dunno, just feel like posting this...must be the full moon




Parents would be justified in wanting to wait to see if their child outgrows their dysphoria because, you know, what parent wants to see their teenage girl getting a radical mastectomy or having her uterus shrivel and her hormonal system go into early menopause with all the sh1t that brings, her hair fall out, her voice forever deepen, etc, or their little boy never have an adult-sized penis, never know what sex feels like with a mature body, be sterile, have prefrontal cortex development issues etc...and spend the whole of their life dependent on chemicals and likely have surgical pain and issues if they go the SRS route.

whereas this is not at all like parents re gay children who they know are just going to have a fine time like anyone else in their fully healthy fully functioning body that needs no chemicals or surgery!!