Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a valid question. Take away gay marriage. Why should a person who loves his car, not be able to marry it?

But that’s the point. You can answer these questions separately. Whether you can marry your car or not has no relevance to gay marriage.

Just as whether someone identifies as a rhino (nobody does) has any impact on trans identification.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

But that’s the point. You can answer these questions separately. Whether you can marry your car or not has no relevance to gay marriage.

Just as whether someone identifies as a rhino (nobody does) has any impact on trans identification.

That's a false equivalency.

Identifying as something you are not. Is that allowed or not?

If it's yes, then identifying as a rhino is game

If no, then why is identifying as the opposite sex ok.


Your whole premise is that it's not alien to identify as something you aren't born as..... As long as it's something you think is ok

If you identify as anything other than what your born as, and society is meant to accept it, how the **** can you dictate what is plausible?

humberklog

Omackeral wrote: »

That's bollox. But on a serious note. Am I now considered gay or bi because I fancy Ellen Page, who now goes by Elliot Page? What's the thought process there.

He was very good in Bruno.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's a false equivalency.

Identifying as something you are not. Is that allowed or not?

If it's yes, then identifying as a rhino is game

If no, then why is identifying as the opposite sex ok.


Your whole premise is that it's not alien to identify as something you aren't born as..... As long as it's something you think is ok

If you identify as anything other than what your born as, and society is meant to accept it, how the **** can you dictate what is plausible?

I don’t have a premise. I am pointing out the flaw in someone else’s argument.

You could equally say “is it ok to be attracted to anything other than the opposite sex and if not why not. “

That doesn’t mean the car argument has any bearing.

And neither does the rhino argument.

Whether or not someone can marry their car has no bearing on whether someone can marry someone of the same sex.

Smacruairi

LLMMLL wrote: »

I don’t have a premise. I am pointing out the flaw in someone else’s argument.

You could equally say “is it ok to be attracted to anything other than the opposite sex and if not why not. “

That doesn’t mean the car argument has any bearing.

And neither does the rhino argument.

Whether or not someone can marry their car has no bearing on whether someone can marry someone of the same sex.

But its not anything to do with attraction.

Can I identify as a rhino? I don't think I can as I'm biologically a human male. Likewise I can't be a woman. If you contest that I can identify as a woman, then I can be a rhino.

Nothing to do with sexual attraction or marriage at all. So which is it? Can I identify as a rhino? Simple yes or no.

So.....

Is talking about Ellen page considered deadnaming now?

Did Ellen page star in those films or was it Elliot page?

Can "he" take credit for "her" films?

Or can we all just agree that it's bollocks and Ellen page is still the same person except she feels like a boy?

Smacruairi

Smacruairi wrote: »

But its not anything to do with attraction.

Can I identify as a rhino? I don't think I can as I'm biologically a human male. Likewise I can't be a woman. If you contest that I can identify as a woman, then I can be a rhino.

Nothing to do with sexual attraction or marriage at all. So which is it? Can I identify as a rhino? Simple yes or no.

I'm assuming they will identify their answer as a yes and as a no. It's fluid.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

I don’t have a premise. I am pointing out the flaw in someone else’s argument.

You could equally say “is it ok to be attracted to anything other than the opposite sex and if not why not. “

That doesn’t mean the car argument has any bearing.

And neither does the rhino argument.

Whether or not someone can marry their car has no bearing on whether someone can marry someone of the same sex.

You addressed nothing.

That post was so empty is was translucent.

I asked you a question. Don't quote it unless you want to answer it.

LLMMLL

Smacruairi wrote: »

But its not anything to do with attraction.

Can I identify as a rhino? I don't think I can as I'm biologically a human male. Likewise I can't be a woman. If you contest that I can identify as a woman, then I can be a rhino.

Nothing to do with sexual attraction or marriage at all. So which is it? Can I identify as a rhino? Simple yes or no.

You can claim you identify as anything you want. It has nothing to do with trans issues.

Tell me how

Omackeral wrote: »

That's bollox. But on a serious note. Am I now considered gay or bi because I fancy Ellen Page, who now goes by Elliot Page? What's the thought process there.

I thought one thing that was pretty clear around this whole conversation was that the considered determination of someone being gay or bi comes from within.

What do you think, knowing everything you know about Elliot Page?

LLMMLL

Smacruairi wrote: »

But its not anything to do with attraction.

Can I identify as a rhino? I don't think I can as I'm biologically a human male. Likewise I can't be a woman. If you contest that I can identify as a woman, then I can be a rhino.

Nothing to do with sexual attraction or marriage at all. So which is it? Can I identify as a rhino? Simple yes or no.

You can claim you identify as anything you want. It has nothing to do with trans issues.

Larbre34

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So.....

Is talking about Ellen page considered deadnaming now?

Did Ellen page star in those films or was it Elliot page?

Can "he" take credit for "her" films?

Or can we all just agree that it's bollocks and Ellen page is still the same person except she feels like a boy?

Some on twitter will accuse you of so called "deadnaming", but I wouldn't.

I recently watched a movie that included vigorous lesbian sex between Ellen Page and Kate Mara. It was rather good. Either my eyes deceived me looking at her breasts and entirely feminine body, or she's a better actress that I thought.

She can live as what she wants to and express her sexuality however she wants to, but she is all woman.

Smacruairi

LLMMLL wrote: »

You can claim you identify as anything you want. It has nothing to do with trans issues.

Trans people claim to be a different sex, so yes it's the same thing. So was that a yes or no to my question.

Mr. Karate

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it's preposterous to think you can be a rhino.

That doesn't stop people thinking that there's hundreds of different genders [good luck trying to get an actual list and description from the people peddling this]

Your genetics will prove you aren't a rhino.

This is where the Transgender argument falls apart. A guy who gets the Estrogen treatments and reassignment surgery, but genetically still a Male. Ellen can call herself Elliot, pump herself full of testosterone but genetically she will always be Female.

The current discussion points to me seem to be:

a) men or women who still retain their original man or lady parts shouldn't have access to men / women only "safe spaces". Seems fair enough to me.

b) men or women who have medically / surgically transitioned shouldn't be able to take part in men's / women's sports. I don't have an opinion on this - don't know enough of the ins and outs of it.

(c) given the current lack of data, it's probably not advisable to advance the idea that puberty blockers should be given to children below the age of 18. Lesser of two evils and all that. I wanted to be an accountant when I was 14, ffs.

(d) and - thanks to omackeral - am I now considered gay or bi or maybe even a chaser if I still fancy E Page?

(e) the rhino thing is still up in the air. There's something about that big horn though.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's an entirely patronising post and is unbecoming of you. I've argued with you on many an occasion as I think we are diametrically opposed on many, many issues but you were one of the only ones on here I found respectful and reasoned.

That’s fair, you know I’ll take a lot of shìte, but anyone taking cheap shots for the amusement of the peanut gallery gets on my tits.

Cilldara_2000

Deleted User wrote: »

Or can we all just agree that it's bollocks and Ellen page is still the same person except she feels like a boy?

No we can't agree that it's bollocks.

Anyone persisting with calling him by his former name is deadnaming.

If you're consistent, I assume you would never refer to a married woman by anything other than her maiden name?

And you call Mohammed Ali by his slave name?

And the lead singer of a well known band is Paul Hewson?

All these naming issues are bollocks as well?

LLMMLL

Smacruairi wrote: »

Trans people claim to be a different sex, so yes it's the same thing. So was that a yes or no to my question.

How would you know it’s the same thing. You would have to have some input from someone who identifies as a rhino to have any idea about what they’re actually claiming

It’s on you to prove that a trans woman “identifying as” a woman is in any way related to a human “identifying as” a rhino.

Unless you can prove the link then your claims are nonsense.

Of course you can’t prove a link between the two as one doesn’t exist.

So I’m afraid the gotcha argument just doesn’t fly.

Omackeral

Tell me how wrote: »

I thought one thing that was pretty clear around this whole conversation was that the considered determination of someone being gay or bi comes from within.

What do you think, knowing everything you know about Elliot Page?

I was asking a serious question. I have only heard of Elliot Page today. I have known Ellen Page for quiet a while and always considered her cute and quite fancied her. I'm asking is that now considered to be gay? It's an honest question that I would like to have answered. Don't know why my question was deleted.

Omackeral

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

No we can't agree that it's bollocks.

Anyone persisting with calling him by his former name is deadnaming.

So did I fancy a guy? Is that what you're telling me? Or did that change overnight and it's only gay now. Or is it at all? I'm curious as to how the narrative on this is as I'm not attracted to guys but apparently now I am?

Smacruairi

LLMMLL wrote: »

How would you know it’s the same thing. You would have to have some input from someone who identifies as a rhino to have any idea about what they’re actually claiming

It’s on you to prove that a trans woman “identifying as” a woman is in any way related to a human “identifying as” a rhino.

Unless you can prove the link then your claims are nonsense.

Of course you can’t prove a link between the two as one doesn’t exist.

So I’m afraid the gotcha argument just doesn’t fly.

Wow. Just wow. What a load of nonsense. No, a person can't identify as a rhino, and I don't have to ask a rhino how they feel. They're genetically far different.

I'll make it even easier for you. Can I identify as 5 years old even if I'm 50? If not, why not, if yes, can a 5 year old identify as 50.

One eyed Jack

Omackeral wrote: »

So did I fancy a guy? Is that what you're telling me? Or did that change overnight and it's only gay now. Or is it at all? I'm curious as to how the narrative on this is as I'm not attracted to guys but apparently now I am?

This is a bit like that time I saw a girl sitting at the bar and she had the most amazing hair. She turned around and I saw ‘twas a fella. It didn’t cause me to question my sexuality, but it definitely made me think about changing the brand of shampoo I use

barney shamrock

Initially I thought Ellen Page had surgery and was announcing that they were now a man.
But no surgery has taken place and they are announcing that they wish to be known as Elliot from now on?
Fine, but dont expect to be auditioning as the male romantic lead in a movie anytime soon "Elliot"

One eyed Jack

barney shamrock wrote: »

Initially I thought Ellen Page had surgery and was announcing that they were now a man.
But no surgery has taken place and they are announcing that they wish to be known as Elliot from now on?
Fine, but dont expect to be auditioning as the male romantic lead in a movie anytime soon "Elliot"

I’m not suggesting you have to watch it, but Hillary Swank put in a good turn as a fella in “Boys Don’t Cry”. I think Elliot will do just fine, they have an already established career in Hollywood and their character in “Umbrella Academy” is pretty out there. I can’t see any reason why they couldn’t audition to play a male lead in a romantic movie if they wanted. They’re an actor aren’t they? Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie is also a good watch.

Cilldara_2000

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

No we can't agree that it's bollocks.

Anyone persisting with calling him by his former name is deadnaming.

If you're consistent, I assume you would never refer to a married woman by anything other than her maiden name?

And you call Mohammed Ali by his slave name?

And the lead singer of a well known band is Paul Hewson?

All these naming issues are bollocks as well?

Sorry......

What the **** are you talking about?

None of those things are remotely the same.

Paul hewson does not claim he is a separate entity. Bits a stage name.

A woman taking her husband's name is a choice, it doesn't change who she was. It's a familial tradition.

Mohammad Ali had a "slave name"? News to me. He will always be recognised as Mohammad Ali as that's when he reached his pinnacle of fame, but he was born Cassius clay. A slave name though? He thought it was a slave name because he didn't choose it.

Did you choose your name?

Again, this has nothing to do with the topic in hand. You are describing people who choose to go by a different name, not by a different sex.

It's completely different

A man is a man. A woman is a woman. You don't get to choose which one you are.

And by the way... Ellen page or Elliot page is never ever a he.

The_Brood

LLMMLL wrote: »

Makes no sense. Nobody claims to be a rhinoceros so why would it have any validity.

People have for thousands of years claimed to be the spirit, the reincarnation, the trapped soul and many other forms of spiritual identification with all kinds of animals, but there hasn't been the kind of organised terminology/conceptualisation of it to be considered a notable social issue.

Why would people who seriously and earnestly make that argument be any less valid than those stating they are now a different gender/were always the wrong gender/etc ?

And before anyone accuses I earnestly am not seeking to be facetious.

LLMMLL

Smacruairi wrote: »

Wow. Just wow. What a load of nonsense. No, a person can't identify as a rhino, and I don't have to ask a rhino how they feel. They're genetically far different.

I'll make it even easier for you. Can I identify as 5 years old even if I'm 50? If not, why not, if yes, can a 5 year old identify as 50.

Again it’s a made up gotcha. Does anyone identify as a 5 year old? I know there’s one famous individual who does but in that case if you read an interview with that person they don’t actually believe they are a different age. It has nothing to do with a trans person identifying as Male or female.

So unless you can prove a link between trans “identifying as” and cross-age “identifying as” then your argument has zero impact on trans issues.

I could answer yes maybe or no. It doesn’t matter. The answer would have no impact on trans issues.

Kraftwerk

One thing I'm confused about in relation to Ellen/Elliot Page is that he's gay/lesbian and says he's Queer and trans. But identifying as a man and married to a woman.

So even though he identifies as a man and not a woman still considers himself a lesbian for liking women?

Wouldnt he be straight now if he's a man married to a woman or does queer mean something else?

LLMMLL

The_Brood wrote: »

People have for thousands of years claimed to be the spirit, the reincarnation, the trapped soul and many other forms of spiritual identification with all kinds of animals, but there hasn't been the kind of organised terminology/conceptualisation of it to be considered a notable social issue.

Why would people who seriously and earnestly make that argument be any less valid than those stating they are now a different gender/were always the wrong gender/etc ?

And before anyone accuses I earnestly am not seeking to be facetious.

Well now you’re now talking about religious concepts. That has even less in common with trans issues than the nonsense rhino argument.

Gatling

Kraftwerk wrote: »

One thing I'm confused about in relation to Ellen/Elliot Page is that he's gay/lesbian and says he's Queer and trans. But identifying as a man and married to a woman.

So even though he identifies as a man and not a woman still considers himself a lesbian for liking women?

Wouldnt he be straight now if he's a man married to a woman or does queer mean something else?

We had this before ,they are now straight ,the question then has to be asked if his/her wife wants to be in a straight relationship .