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Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)
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[Deleted User] wrote: »A man is a man. A woman is a woman. You don't get to choose which one you are.
Surely you have to appreciate the irony though in expecting that anyone who doesn’t agree with you should take what you say seriously... just because you say so! That’s what it really comes down to - other people, because they have the freedom to disagree with you, don’t have to accept your declaration, any more than you can be compelled to accept theirs!
I do agree with you that a woman is a woman and a mans is a man, but if someone says they’re a woman or a man, I’m not going to give a sugar. They clearly have bigger issues than I do, and I’d leave it there.0 -
We had this before ,they are now straight ,the question then has to be asked if his/her wife wants to be in a straight relationship .
But what's the queer part? Is it the fact he's trans? So not necessarily a straight man, a straight trans man and the trans part is the queer part? Queer is not male/female as opposed to sexuality?0 -
One thing I'm confused about in relation to Ellen/Elliot Page is that he's gay/lesbian and says he's Queer and trans. But identifying as a man and married to a woman.
So even though he identifies as a man and not a woman still considers himself a lesbian for liking women?
Wouldnt he be straight now if he's a man married to a woman or does queer mean something else?
hjgv0 -
But what's the queer part? Is it the fact he's trans? So not necessarily a straight man, a straight trans man and the trans part is the queer part? Queer is not male/female as opposed to sexuality?
I think its because he also identifies as non binary and uses they/them pronouns as well as he/him? Maybe that's not it though0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Surely you have to appreciate the irony though in expecting that anyone who doesn’t agree with you should take what you say seriously... just because you say so! That’s what it really comes down to - other people, because they have the freedom to disagree with you, don’t have to accept your declaration, any more than you can be compelled to accept theirs!
I do agree with you that a woman is a woman and a mans is a man, but if someone says they’re a woman or a man, I’m not going to give a sugar. They clearly have bigger issues than I do, and I’d leave it there.
Nah. There are certifiable facts. Opinions and feelings don't supercede them. I'm not claiming anything except that biology is not a matter of opinion0 -
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I must research this topicSome on twitter will accuse you of so called "deadnaming", but I wouldn't.
I recently watched a movie that included vigorous lesbian sex between Ellen Page and Kate Mara. It was rather good. Either my eyes deceived me looking at her breasts and entirely feminine body, or she's a better actress that I thought.
She can live as what she wants to and express her sexuality however she wants to, but she is all woman.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Surely you have to appreciate the irony though in expecting that anyone who doesn’t agree with you should take what you say seriously... just because you say so! That’s what it really comes down to - other people, because they have the freedom to disagree with you, don’t have to accept your declaration, any more than you can be compelled to accept theirs!
I do agree with you that a woman is a woman and a mans is a man, but if someone says they’re a woman or a man, I’m not going to give a sugar. They clearly have bigger issues than I do, and I’d leave it there.
At a guess, I'd say there are a few thousand posts you've made that would fill quite a big sugar bowl.0 -
Not surprised after how they looked in season 2 of Umbrella academy and its promos.
They're a very charming person, and a good actor in good movies. Great representative for the whole trans thing. Who doesn't want to accept elliot page for who they are?
Until now there's Chelsea Manning, who is a sympathetic and respectable figure but hardly in the spotlight, the two matrix siblings who just come off as a bit weird, jenner who seemed to be creating a distraction from the fact they'd just killed people... That's all who comes to my mind.
Anyway I find the whole trans thing objectively ok but it also weird. Page is someone I've liked for ages and for me they humanize the phenomenon. They make it acceptable on a deeper level than 'the consensus in scientific literature is that it's a real thing'.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Nah. There are certifiable facts. Opinions and feelings don't supercede them. I'm not claiming anything except that biology is not a matter of opinion
Biology is very much a matter of opinion, as all it is, is one of the tools humans have at their disposal in order to quantify our understanding of the natural world, and the ways in which we can change it, rearrange it and improve upon it. How we do that is entirely based upon our own feelings we express as opinions. It’s why for example I don’t see humans and dogs as equals, but other people do.
Our understanding of biology is influenced by culture. How we classify things and what rights we confer upon them on that basis is very much based upon how we feel about them and wish to have others share our opinions because we feel it is the correct one. There are already plenty of people who don’t express their opinions because they feel like they aren’t in any position to given they think they’re in a minority and they’ll likely be ostracised if they don’t pretend like they agree with the prevailing narrative. In that sense, opinions and feelings absolutely do supersede biology.
Darwin himself was reticent about publishing his true opinions for fear of being “cancelled” by his peers back in the day. Luckily for us he spoke up! There were other scientists had their own theories around the same time and it’s a simplistic point but hopefully you get the idea!0 -
I think queer is a generic term for being into weird stuff, and is separate to gender.One thing I'm confused about in relation to Ellen/Elliot Page is that he's gay/lesbian and says he's Queer and trans. But identifying as a man and married to a woman.
So even though he identifies as a man and not a woman still considers himself a lesbian for liking women?
Wouldnt he be straight now if he's a man married to a woman or does queer mean something else?0 -
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Well now you’re now talking about religious concepts. That has even less in common with trans issues than the nonsense rhino argument.
Except that everything about "trans" has more in common with religion than it does with science. It is all about belief, feelings, ideology than it is about provable facts.
Those who fervently believe their religion is the correct one believe it is factual, they are not swayed by scientifically proven facts that flat out contradict their beliefs, or by billions of other people that believe a different religion or no religion.
In exactly the same way trans ideologists such as yourself just believe they can become the opposite sex just because they wish it to be so, believe the modern religion of gender identity and all of it's tenets are true and any facts that say otherwise are just wrong or bad just because they oppose your ideology.
It is clearly a religion.One eyed Jack wrote: »Surely you have to appreciate the irony though in expecting that anyone who doesn’t agree with you should take what you say seriously... just because you say so! That’s what it really comes down to - other people, because they have the freedom to disagree with you, don’t have to accept your declaration, any more than you can be compelled to accept theirs!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, they are not entitled to those opinions being factually true. Facts exist outside the thoughts or beliefs of those observing them, you or anyone else can deny these facts all you like but a male cannot "transition" to become a female any more than a carrot can transition to become a lemon through the power of thought or belief.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Biology is very much a matter of opinion, as all it is, is one of the tools humans have at their disposal in order to quantify our understanding of the natural world, and the ways in which we can change it, rearrange it and improve upon it. How we do that is entirely based upon our own feelings we express as opinions. It’s why for example I don’t see humans and dogs as equals, but other people do.
Our understanding of biology is influenced by culture. How we classify things and what rights we confer upon them on that basis is very much based upon how we feel about them and wish to have others share our opinions because we feel it is the correct one. There are already plenty of people who don’t express their opinions because they feel like they aren’t in any position to given they think they’re in a minority and they’ll likely be ostracised if they don’t pretend like they agree with the prevailing narrative. In that sense, opinions and feelings absolutely do supersede biology.
That is just drivel. Moronic, stupid, invasively corrosive psuedo-intellectual drivel.
Facts are quantifiable, provable things that can be measured, identified, categorised and relied upon to always be true. This is the very cornerstone of scientific understanding.
Conflating human feelings, beliefs, values, laws and cultural ideas with provable facts is the very cornerstone of bullsh!t.0 -
No longer will I think that Ellen Page is a bore who plays the same character in everything she's in. That now applies to Elliot Page.0
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Except that everything about "trans" has more in common with religion than it does with science. It is all about belief, feelings, ideology than it is about provable facts.
Those who fervently believe their religion is the correct one believe it is factual, they are not swayed by scientifically proven facts that flat out contradict their beliefs, or by billions of other people that believe a different religion or no religion.
In exactly the same way trans ideologists such as yourself just believe they can become the opposite sex just because they wish it to be so, believe the modern religion of gender identity and all of it's tenets are true and any facts that say otherwise are just wrong or bad just because they oppose your ideology.
It is clearly a religion.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, they are not entitled to those opinions being factually true. Facts exist outside the thoughts or beliefs of those observing them, you or anyone else can deny these facts all you like but a male cannot "transition" to become a female any more than a carrot can transition to become a lemon through the power of thought or belief.
Hardly. You’re basically denying the existence of non-religious beliefs. Anyone who believes something is partaking in religion according to your world view.
Quite obviously incorrect.0 -
That is just drivel. Moronic, stupid, invasively corrosive psuedo-intellectual drivel.
Facts are quantifiable, provable things that can be measured, identified, categorised and relied upon to always be true. This is the very cornerstone of scientific understanding.
Conflating human feelings, beliefs, values, laws and cultural ideas with provable facts is the very cornerstone of bullsh!t.
Must have been very upsetting for you when Newton’s Laws turned out to not be universal.....0 -
Cilldara_2000 wrote: »No we can't agree that it's bollocks.
Anyone persisting with calling him by his former name is deadnaming.
If you're consistent, I assume you would never refer to a married woman by anything other than her maiden name?
And you call Mohammed Ali by his slave name?
And the lead singer of a well known band is Paul Hewson?
All these naming issues are bollocks as well?
Are people upbraided for referring to people by their maiden name or by calling Bono Paul Hewson or Muhammed Ali by his birth name?0 -
I was asking a serious question. I have only heard of Elliot Page today. I have known Ellen Page for quiet a while and always considered her cute and quite fancied her. I'm asking is that now considered to be gay? It's an honest question that I would like to have answered. Don't know why my question was deleted.
No, you’re straight. Page is female, that won’t change. And you’ll notice those female biological markers. It’s pretty innate. Just like how I notice male markers like jawline and bodily bone structure and shape. However Page identifies won’t erase those female characteristics like finer bone structure and waist-to-hip ratio. Hormone therapy might cause a redistribution of fat maybe.0 -
Except that everything about "trans" has more in common with religion than it does with science. It is all about belief, feelings, ideology than it is about provable facts.
Science is just as much all about beliefs, feelings and ideology as religion, because fundamentally they both have one thing in common - humans, and both science and religion are different tools to help identify and understand the natural world. Science is just as much based upon assumptions, axioms and everything else as religion. It’s a broad church, but that’s stretching the metaphor. Trans has plenty to investigate which keeps scientists busy with research and new discoveries, new evidence, a whole boatload of stuff. There’s this paper for instance, just as an example, of how scientists are investigating gender dysphoria and trying to identify it’s cause, and it concludes with the following -
The studies and research that have been conducted allow us to confirm that masculinization or feminization of the gonads does not always proceed in alignment with that of the brain development and function. There is a distinction between the sex (visible in the body’s anatomical features or defined genetically) and the gender of an individual (the way that people perceive themselves).
It is noted that the causal mechanism of GD is unknown, but the importance of biological influences via genes and hormones is clear. Individuals with AIS present with a spectrum of gonadal appearance, which cannot be categorized as either completely male or female but maintain their typical function. This duality, in addition to individuals who present with discordant gonadal and brain developments, creates psychological challenges that may contribute to a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with their biologically assigned gender. A focus on brain anatomy highlights a difference between males and females and shows that brain function too is gender-orientated, with, for example, a hypothalamic response to androstadienone which differs significantly between the two sexes. In this test, individuals with GD have a hypothalamic response more like that of their experienced gender, rather than their genetic sex. These point to a possible biological and genetic underpinning of GD as stemming from a dissonance between gonadal development and brain sexual differentiation and orientation. However, GD is a multifactorial condition which biology alone cannot fully explain. Further research is required to identify a true causal mechanism of GD, as well as investigating an inheritance pattern. With further research and the resulting increase in awareness of the condition, including better education of clinicians and understanding in the lay population, there may be a greater acceptance of individuals who identify as a different gender to their anatomical sex and thereby contribute to a step forward in modern society.
You make science sound like it’s just some pointless endeavour to establish facts, when that has never been the function of science or scientific inquiry or scientific investigation. It has always been about furthering understanding, and in terms of human biology it’s about furthering understanding of human biology.
One doesn’t establish facts through science, that’s just the tool. One establishes facts through reason, and there are a few different types but the most basic form is deductive reasoning. Ask yourself a simple question - does a bear shìt in the woods? So you go to a woods and it’s littered with bear crap, you can safely assume that you have established the fact that bears do indeed shìt in the woods even though you never actually observed a bear squatting.Everyone is entitled to an opinion, they are not entitled to those opinions being factually true. Facts exist outside the thoughts or beliefs of those observing them, you or anyone else can deny these facts all you like but a male cannot "transition" to become a female any more than a carrot can transition to become a lemon through the power of thought or belief.
Well, it’s more true to say that nobody is entitled to their opinions being taken seriously, which presents something of a problem when you have to argue your case to try and justify discrimination on the basis of your own fears and prejudices. Then you’re back to the beliefs, feelings and ideology stuff that you’ve just dismissed. If you suggest that other people can’t use it (and nobody is obligated to take your opinion in that regard seriously either), then by that same standard that you have set for yourself, you can’t use it either! I’ve never made the argument humans can transition from one sex to the other simply through the power of thought btw, that would be ridiculous.
In the same fashion, while you’re entitled to your opinion, I think the trite finisher you’re looking for is you’re not entitled to your own facts. And the fact is that simply by mere declaration, the world does not bend to your will. Nobody even has to argue with you or discuss anything with you or seek your permission to express their opinions. They can just express their opinions anyway, and those opinions might resonate with enough people to reach critical mass and become accepted as fact by consensus. That leaves you pretty much out in the cold with your “facts, facts, facts” shtick that ignores so, so much of reality and what makes us human.0 -
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When people start to introduce the rare karotypes or unusual developmental disorders into the trans debate I think they should be very wary.
It could be claimed they are suggesting that in order to qualify as transgender people aught to prove an anomalous X or Y chromosone or will have to display a differently developed set of gonads?
And if that should not become a requirement then why introduce the idea of rare biology in the first place?
How is it in any way relevant at all?
After all the trans umbrella firmly includes all manner of expression and sentiment including mere cross dressing or gender fluidity. Bringing up rare hypothalmic responses as some kind of proof against human sexual dimorphism is a cat among pigeons.0 -
Ellen/elliot page was always completely androgynous anyway, if paddy powers let you take bets on people coming out as trans they would have given he/she the worst odds on anyone in hollywood.
Bet he/she has a new movie coming out soon0 -
The Elliot Page stuff is very predictable and steeped in "performance'. No one sane would give even half a damn about Ellen Page's new identity - they are an adult and can do as they wish. It means feck all to most.
But the announcement also had to include what I read as pure emotional blather. How they were scared now of violence..
Elliot you are a very rich person living among a privileged community who will fall over themselves from here on in to glorify you as brave and important. Unless you are going to become a prostitute or drug dealer in addition to the courageous act of claiming he and they as your special words you are in almost no danger of violence. Also by far the most of the transpeople murdered and who you mention in what can only be an attempt to emotively associate yourself with their plight were killed by their intimate partners, almost all male. So unless you are going to ditch your perfectly mild mannered wife and shack up with a pimp I would say you are safe enough. No need for the "fragility' you seem to aspire towards claiming for your self. It will be just fine for you.
Also, Elliot, if you are listening, Latino people don't like the X. That is just for eegits.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Medicine has always been about interrupting normal biological processes, ultimately with the idea of improving people’s quality of life, as opposed to the idea of creating frankenpeople (not sure how you feel about people who have had organ transplants and other mechanical devices inserted in their bodies?), but it’s done with children regularly.
On that basis I have no doubt that some people will see this as child abuse, just like every other procedure that gives people the willies because it involves children will be seen as the child abuse scandal of the century. It’s an easy way to determine their grasp on reality and their ability to put things in perspective. For me the thalidomide scandal is up there -
Irish government deliberately didn't issue warning about Thalidomide
now now, you know what I mean, medicine has been about getting the human body back to normal operating function, something not working, get it to work, hormone not being produced give it artificially. this isn't that.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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When people start to introduce the rare karotypes or unusual developmental disorders into the trans debate I think they should be very wary.
It could be claimed they are suggesting that in order to qualify as transgender people aught to prove an anomalous X or Y chromosone or will have to display a differently developed set of gonads?
And if that should not become a requirement then why introduce the idea of rare biology in the first place?
How is it in any way relevant at all?
After all the trans umbrella firmly includes all manner of expression and sentiment including mere cross dressing or gender fluidity. Bringing up rare hypothalmic responses as some kind of proof against human sexual dimorphism is a cat among pigeons.
It wasn’t a “trans debate”, it was a science paper investigating gender dysphoria. The paper didn’t attempt to disprove human sexual dimorphism either. It’s like you didn’t even read the actual paper before commenting on it, but you’ll link to some random developmental biologist on Twitter using the Scopes Trial to make some point about the truth?
One of the many, many reasons the case is so memorable apart from the quote itself, is that they had to keep the teacher from testifying so he wouldn’t commit perjury after swearing an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help him God! And she was invoking it to gain validation for her opinions in an echo chamber!The Elliot Page stuff is very predictable and steeped in "performance'. No one sane would give even half a damn about Ellen Page's new identity - they are an adult and can do as they wish. It means feck all to most.
But the announcement also had to include what I read as pure emotional blather. How they were scared now of violence..
Elliot you are a very rich person living among a privileged community who will fall over themselves from here on in to glorify you as brave and important. Unless you are going to become a prostitute or drug dealer in addition to the courageous act of claiming he and they as your special words you are in almost no danger of violence. Also by far the most of the transpeople murdered and who you mention in what can only be an attempt to emotively associate yourself with their plight were killed by their intimate partners, almost all male. So unless you are going to ditch your perfectly mild mannered wife and shack up with a pimp I would say you are safe enough. No need for the "fragility' you seem to aspire towards claiming for your self. It will be just fine for you.
Also, Elliot, if you are listening, Latino people don't like the X. That is just for eegits.
Oh dear God the irony!0 -
If you read the Bell vs Tavistock judgement, a recurring theme is a lack of data27. The age distribution of those treated with PBs in each year between 2011 and 2020 was not provided to the court. Although the defendant and the Trusts said that such data was available, in the sense that the ages of the children are known, the data has not been collated for each year. However, Ms Ailsa Swarbrick, the Divisional Director of Gender Services at the Trust, has presented evidence in relation to patients referred to endocrinology services in 2019-20 and those treated in earlier years but who were discharged from GIDS in 2019-2020. This work was done in response to recommendations in the GIDS Review Action Plan 2019 (a Review commissioned by the Trust following a report by Dr David Bell) that data would help to inform clinical and service developments and a process of continuous improvement.
28. We note here that we find it surprising that such data was not collated in previous years given the young age of the patient group, the experimental nature of the treatment and the profound impact that it has.34. The court asked for statistics on the number or proportion of young people referred by GIDS for PBs who had a diagnosis of ASD. Ms Morris said that such data was not available, although it would have been recorded on individual patient records. We therefore do not know the proportion of those who were found by GIDS to be Gillick competent who had ASD, or indeed a mental health diagnosis.
35. Again, we have found this lack of data analysis – and the apparent lack of investigation of this issue - surprising.
57. No precise numbers are available from GIDS (as to the percentage of patients who proceed from PBs to CSH)...
59. We find it surprising that GIDS did not obtain full data showing the figures and the proportion of those on puberty blockers who remain within GIDS and move on to cross-sex hormones.....
Now - did they just not have their ducks in a row for the court case or what?
For an off-label treatment, they dont seem to have been drilling down into the numbers all that much.0 -
silverharp wrote: »now now, you know what I mean, medicine has been about getting the human body back to normal operating function, something not working, get it to work, hormone not being produced give it artificially. this isn't that.
I get where you’re coming from, and just to be clear I don’t like the idea of treating conditions in children with synthetic hormones either, BUT, weighing that against the alternatives, if I were in the position where physicians couldn’t cure my child of what ails them, I would want my child to have a treatment that would at least improve their quality of life (and any treatment will have it’s positives, negatives and moral dilemmas). It’s unusual in any case to put children on a regimen of synthetic hormones, but it’s not entirely unheard of in other circumstances -
How is growth hormone deficiency treated?
Growth hormone deficiency treatment and monitoring is best carried out by a paediatric endocrinologist (doctor specialising in children’s hormones). Growth hormone deficiency is treated by replacing the missing hormone with a man-made version.
The aim of growth hormone therapy is to treat growth hormone deficiency by returning the child to the normal growth curve so reaching the height that would be expected taking into account parents’ height and other factors. The dose of growth hormone will be calculated according to your child’s weight so will change over time. This dose will balance the results expected against potential side effects. Growth hormone therapy is given by injection under the skin (subcutaneously) in a daily dose.
Growth hormone replacement does not work for all children, but in most cases, if started early, they can reach normal adult height.
What happens next?
Children with growth hormone deficiency need regular follow up so that the dose of growth hormone can be adjusted as they increase height and weight. They will also need regular monitoring, not only for the effects of treatment but for any side effects that might occur. In most cases, teenagers will need to transfer to an adult endocrinologist for life-long monitoring as continuing to have the injections, even after growth has stopped, can help protect various body systems, particularly stopping the bones becoming weakened (osteoporosis).
Each case or course of treatment in each case, will continue to be decided on it’s own merits in the best interests of the child in question.0 -
The common consensus among legal and medical experts who have studied the full ruling in the Keira Bell case is that the prevailing practice of affirmation and puberty blockers amounted to conversion therapy of homosexual children. Now that this has been officially and expertly ruled upon, will the likes of Joeytheparrott and other spokespeople for the LGBT movement, now finally admit that they got it wrong and that they have been responsible for advocating for the conversion of the gay kids, a practice that they should be vehemently opposed to? Or will they be more concerned about trying to save face?
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf0 -
Le mot juste!0
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The common consensus among legal and medical experts who have studied the full ruling in the Keira Bell case is that the prevailing practice of affirmation and puberty blockers amounted to conversion therapy of homosexual children. Now that this has been officially and expertly ruled upon, will the likes of Joeytheparrott and other spokespeople for the LGBT movement, now finally admit that they got it wrong and that they have been responsible for advocating for the conversion of the gay kids, a practice that they should be vehemently opposed to? Or will they be more concerned about trying to save face?
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf
Could you point to the relevant page? I’ve searched for the words “gay”, “lesbian”, and “homosexual” in the doc and they don’t seem to appear.0
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