Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

ingalway

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I get where you’re coming from, and just to be clear I don’t like the idea of treating conditions in children with synthetic hormones either, BUT, weighing that against the alternatives, if I were in the position where physicians couldn’t cure my child of what ails them, I would want my child to have a treatment that would at least improve their quality of life (and any treatment will have it’s positives, negatives and moral dilemmas). It’s unusual in any case to put children on a regimen of synthetic hormones, but it’s not entirely unheard of in other circumstances -


How is growth hormone deficiency treated?

Growth hormone deficiency treatment and monitoring is best carried out by a paediatric endocrinologist (doctor specialising in children’s hormones). Growth hormone deficiency is treated by replacing the missing hormone with a man-made version.

The aim of growth hormone therapy is to treat growth hormone deficiency by returning the child to the normal growth curve so reaching the height that would be expected taking into account parents’ height and other factors. The dose of growth hormone will be calculated according to your child’s weight so will change over time. This dose will balance the results expected against potential side effects. Growth hormone therapy is given by injection under the skin (subcutaneously) in a daily dose.

Growth hormone replacement does not work for all children, but in most cases, if started early, they can reach normal adult height.

What happens next?

Children with growth hormone deficiency need regular follow up so that the dose of growth hormone can be adjusted as they increase height and weight. They will also need regular monitoring, not only for the effects of treatment but for any side effects that might occur. In most cases, teenagers will need to transfer to an adult endocrinologist for life-long monitoring as continuing to have the injections, even after growth has stopped, can help protect various body systems, particularly stopping the bones becoming weakened (osteoporosis).


Each case or course of treatment in each case, will continue to be decided on it’s own merits in the best interests of the child in question.

The children treated in this instance have a hormone deficiency which needs to be regulated with prescribed hormones. Without them their health would seriously suffer. Many women need HRT to top up hormones. Some men may also need hormone treatment.
Children who may or may not be trans don't have a hormone deficiency. Changing a child's hormone profile has lifelong consequences.

silverharp

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I get where you’re coming from, and just to be clear I don’t like the idea of treating conditions in children with synthetic hormones either, BUT, weighing that against the alternatives, if I were in the position where physicians couldn’t cure my child of what ails them, I would want my child to have a treatment that would at least improve their quality of life (and any treatment will have it’s positives, negatives and moral dilemmas). It’s unusual in any case to put children on a regimen of synthetic hormones, but it’s not entirely unheard of in other circumstances -.................

As the other posted mentioned, growth hormone treatment is an attempt to fix an imbalance, its pure medical science not ideology , if it proved to have more downsides than upsides it wouldnt be offered or would be restricted.

the only similar situation I can think of are a rare condition where people end up sawing off their own limbs because they have a mental condition. Whether its ethical for a doctor to perform this operation is probably debatable BUT i doubt there would even be a discussion of a hospital removing the limb of a child because of this mental condition, which may turn out to be temporary or the patient could be managed with psychological help in the future.

Ideology is the driving force here

keano_afc

suicide_circus wrote: »

If you read the Bell vs Tavistock judgement, a recurring theme is a lack of data









Now - did they just not have their ducks in a row for the court case or what?

For an off-label treatment, they dont seem to have been drilling down into the numbers all that much.

The Tavistock has been collating puberty blocker data since 2011 but didnt present any of these results.

I wonder why?

suicide_circus

keano_afc wrote: »

The Tavistock has been collating puberty blocker data since 2011 but didnt present any of these results.

I wonder why?

Yes i've been thinking about why that is.

Best case scenario is a shocking lack of preparation and diligence ahead of the court case - so they have all the data and it's all good but they were too disorganised to gather it and present it in court. Seems unlikely.

Worse would be if the organisation itself is so slipshod that it hasnt actually been keeping proper patient records or hasnt been collating them properly. Seems unlikely.

Worst case scenario is that they have all the data and didn't present it intentionally because they believed it would either damage their case, damage their reputation or both.

B.A._Baracus

Kraftwerk wrote: »

One thing I'm confused about in relation to Ellen/Elliot Page is that he's gay/lesbian and says he's Queer and trans. But identifying as a man and married to a woman.

So even though he identifies as a man and not a woman still considers himself a lesbian for liking women?

Wouldnt he be straight now if he's a man married to a woman or does queer mean something else?

Bit confusing indeed.
Ah if Ellen Page wants to be known as Elliot then cool. Who am I or anyone else. But there's too much terms. Like page now says they are transgendered and queer. It's rather confusing.

But I can predict what will happen next. Elliot will get praise from Hollywood (which is happening already but that's one cut throat industry)
Page will be the flavor of the month going on talk shows what not.
Media coverage will die down.
If he doesn't get any role.... It's Hollywood being "transphobic" ... You know yourself.

Another aspect that can be mentioned should be Scarlett Johansson getting a bollocking for playing an Asian character in Ghost in the Shell (even tho in the story they tweaked the story so it made sense) so does that mean Page should only play transgender characters now? Technically it should going by other standards... But that's a can of worms in itself.

suicide_circus

Coming back to part of the Tavistock ruling i already quoted;

34. The court asked for statistics on the number or proportion of young people referred by GIDS for PBs who had a diagnosis of ASD. Ms Morris said that such data was not available, although it would have been recorded on individual patient records. We therefore do not know the proportion of those who were found by GIDS to be Gillick competent who had ASD, or indeed a mental health diagnosis.

So Tavistock was not able to furnish the court with any statistics as to how many of the kids it sees are autistic or have mental health issues....what the flying f*ck is going on in that place?

suicide_circus

Will Elliot Page only be able to play transmen characters now?

Eric Cartman

suicide_circus wrote: »

Coming back to part of the Tavistock ruling i already quoted;


So Tavistock was not able to furnish the court with any statistics as to how many of the kids it sees are autistic or have mental health issues....what the flying f*ck is going on in that place?

They’d record the data if the answer they wanted was the correct one. Theres a huge overlap between transwomen and those on the autism spectrum, I have no idea why but it really is more of a circle than venn diagram

D.Q

No problem with anyone living their life how they want, don't even particularly mind referring to them as whatever pronouns they want.

Maybe I'm too cynical but the big statements and fanfare over their sexuality/gender screams of attention seeking and virtue signalling.

I think as a whole we have become completely and utterly addicted to the need for constant validation. I'm as guilty as the rest but I feel more and more that I need to just give up on social media entirely.

It's only as powerful as you allow it to be.

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

Coming back to part of the Tavistock ruling i already quoted;


So Tavistock was not able to furnish the court with any statistics as to how many of the kids it sees are autistic or have mental health issues....what the flying f*ck is going on in that place?

35 people resigned from there in 3 years to 2019. An internal report in 2019 by Dr David Bell found it not fit for purpose and the report was dismissed, leading to Marcus Evans, working with the Trust for 35 years and one of the Governors of Tavistock, resigning in protest. That is where we have been sending Irish children and bringing their practitioners here to children in Crumlin Hospital too.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/23/child-transgender-service-governor-quits-chaos

If it was any other issue where children had been found to be inappropriately treated except transgenderism it would have set the place on fire. But this has elicited a fairly muted response overall given its seriousness. I bet more ordinary people know about Ellen Page's bravery.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

suicide_circus

So a damning internal report, mass resignations and now a court case betraying multiple failings and obfuscation. Perhaps a visit from the police and child protection services is in order?

grassylawn

Eric Cartman wrote: »

They’d record the data if the answer they wanted was the correct one. Theres a huge overlap between transwomen and those on the autism spectrum, I have no idea why but it really is more of a circle than venn diagram

There's also a higher rate of hypsersexuality and kink.

What if sometimes sexual transitioning is a kinky thing, not a genuine case of someone in the wrong gendered body?

What if a cisgendered person has a sexual fantasy that leads them to make life changing decisions that they later regret?

What if that person is prepubescent?

There does seem to be a type of trans that is overtly sexual and kinky, very much into the transgressive aspect.
And then there are other trans people who aren't like that at all.

Covid19

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

No, you’re straight. Page is female, that won’t change. And you’ll notice those female biological markers. It’s pretty innate. Just like how I notice male markers like jawline and bodily bone structure and shape. However Page identifies won’t erase those female characteristics like finer bone structure and waist-to-hip ratio. Hormone therapy might cause a redistribution of fat maybe.

Or, shock horror, DNA. No matter how any if us decide we want to be referred as/ considered, if one of us died in a horrible way in which our only identifiable feature was DNA, then that's how we will be referred. What we are, at a pure biological level, will never change. From birth to death.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Covid19 wrote: »

Or, shock horror, DNA. No matter how any if us decide we want to be referred as/ considered, if one of us died in a horrible way in which our only identifiable feature was DNA, then that's how we will be referred. What we are, at a pure biological level, will never change. From birth to death.

I know but I focused on physical attributes because you’re not thinking about DNA when you fancy somebody. You’re thinking about how that DNA manifests phenotypically. A female form will get your attention if you’re a straight guy, a gay woman or bisexual. And vice versa for the male form.

Tired Gardener

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/should-under-16s-need-permission-to-start-puberty-blockers

Glad to hear the landmark ruling is getting coverage on Irish radio.

I imagine this is going to bring the Tavistock centre to a lot of people's attention.

silverharp

suicide_circus wrote: »

Will Elliot Page only be able to play transmen characters now?

more interestingly, is his wife straight now and not a lesbian , LLM!

TomTomTim

I just seen this in the wild, it's in relation to Ellen/Elliot Page

You use their CORRECT pronouns — the ones they ****ing tell you to use — always. That’s it. No special cases, no “oh I was talking about the past”, etc. Nope. You must NEVER call a trans person by any pronouns other than the ones they tell you to use.

Now I’m sorry if I’m being a bit harsh here. But trans lives are quite literally at stake. You NEED to listen to them. We all need to be so much better.

I'm sure not all trans people are this aggressive, but people like the above certainly don't help the movement.

jam_mac_jam

TomTomTim wrote: »

I just seen this in the wild, it's in relation to Ellen/Elliot Page



I'm sure not all trans people are this aggressive, but people like the above certainly don't help the movement.

The drama at everything is very tiring. You are going to KILL people if you use the wrong pronoun.

Can you not just explain to people that they need to use the right one. Are people just going to keel over and die if you say the wrong thing.

Everything is literally killing people.

suicide_circus

The idea that you get to dictate the manner in which other people refer to you is bizarre. You dont ****ing have that authority. Unbelievable narcissism.

FunLover18

D.Q wrote: »

No problem with anyone living their life how they want, don't even particularly mind referring to them as whatever pronouns they want.

Maybe I'm too cynical but the big statements and fanfare over their sexuality/gender screams of attention seeking and virtue signalling.

I think as a whole we have become completely and utterly addicted to the need for constant validation. I'm as guilty as the rest but I feel more and more that I need to just give up on social media entirely.

It's only as powerful as you allow it to be.

In an ideal world there wouldn't be big statements and fanfare because nobody would care and it would be a non issue. Unfortunately the world is full of people who do care how others live their lives or what pronouns they use, coming out gets the reaction it does because so many people are ashamed and afraid to come out for fear of the judgment and abuse they may face. You don't have to read far into this thread to see examples of that.

Gruffalux

There is room for humour too. Recently I saw someone had their pronouns in their bio - WTF and FFS. Wish I could come up with something funny like that.

Larbre34

Unpopular opinion - if young people weren't so overexposed with these so-called options, they wouldn't be so overwhelmed with them.

In my day it was simpler.

Be straight, be gay, whatever. Be a butch masculine lesbian or bisexual woman or an effeminate gay or bisexual man if thats what you want, but when you look in the mirror naked, no manner of medical, surgical or psychological intervention can change what you arrived on earth as.

What about Ellen Page's partner? Shes a woman who likes women. Maybe shes bisexual either, I don't know. Its no different to my wife deciding to live as a man, my response would be that I fell in love with her as a straight woman and I'm not homosexual.

purifol0

FunLover18 wrote: »

In an ideal world there wouldn't be big statements and fanfare because nobody would care and it would be a non issue. Unfortunately the world is full of people who do care how others live their lives or what pronouns they use, coming out gets the reaction it does because so many people are ashamed and afraid to come out for fear of the judgment and abuse they may face. You don't have to read far into this thread to see examples of that.

Hang in a sec, just because you declare yourself a woman and doesn't mean you get to demand people treat you as one. That means not being allowed into the same changing rooms or sports teams or women only gyms or hell even prisons (although last one that hasn't been tested in this country).

And this new thing of "dead naming". I mean unless you've legally changed your name people are going to call you by the one they've always known you as. I cannot imagine giving your parents a hard time for them ever wanting to call you anything but the name they gave you. But perhaps you feel differently.

ceadaoin.

TomTomTim wrote: »

I just seen this in the wild, it's in relation to Ellen/Elliot Page



I'm sure not all trans people are this aggressive, but people like the above certainly don't help the movement.

Anyone who watches an old movie starring the now non existent Ellen Page is literally killing people. I mean is there any need for the dramatics ffs

Neyite

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Anyone who watches an old movie starring the now non existent Ellen Page is literally killing people. I mean is there any need for the dramatics ffs

#ElainePaige was trending on twitter, which I found hilarious.

castletownman

One thing I will say, I don't think there is such thing as gender identity in third world countries, where literally surviving is the main issue of the day.

The biggest first world issue at present.

Neyite

purifol0 wrote: »

And this new thing of "dead naming". I mean unless you've legally changed your name people are going to call you by the one they've always known you as. I cannot imagine giving your parents a hard time for them ever wanting to call you anything but the name they gave you. But perhaps you feel differently.

To be fair to Elliot, absolutely nowhere in the statement they released was that asked of people.

It was someone on twitter who decided to school everyone on the 'rules' of deadnaming in relation to Elliot, and basically...well...mansplained (how ironic) Elliot never stated any preference about what name they wanted used in relation to past acting roles.

grassylawn

All I've seen them express is happiness that they are being accepted by people and that they are able to accept themselves now.

I really doubt they'd be into hopping on people who use the wrong name or pronoun outside of deliberate provocation.

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

What about Ellen Page's partner? Shes a woman who likes women. Maybe shes bisexual either, I don't know. Its no different to my wife deciding to live as a man, my response would be that I fell in love with her as a straight woman and I'm not homosexual.

Well Elliot identifies as "Queer", which maybe means that whoever is with her is "Queer" be default?

EDIT: Genuine accidental deadname there.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

suicide_circus wrote: »

The idea that you get to dictate the manner in which other people refer to you is bizarre. You dont ****ing have that authority. Unbelievable narcissism.

Until they make it law and charge you under hate speech laws.