Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gatling

Gruffalux wrote: »

Yes seems like a description of the year most of us have had and a lot of people feel crap at Christmas. My best friend's husband died at Christmas so she can hardly drag herself to put up decorations. It can be a hard time of year for many.
I had never heard of Aoife at all so had a google, being relentlessly curious. In the first article they said they have blocked 100,000 twitter accounts due to relentless trolling. I thought Jesus that sounds terrible, whats going on there. Googled their twitter account and clicked on. I am blocked! Literally never ever heard of them before. Thats 99,999 accounts so, blocked for relentless trolling.

Typical I'm a poor little victim of something just no idea what of ,

We got as far as putting up the the tree and not much else ,and we won't see family from either side either thank **** for most part ,
Can I have a lonely column too

Gentlemanne

Sir Oxman wrote: »

It's a generic alone/lonely at Xmas article (whether by choice or not)

Gatling wrote: »

Typical I'm a poor little victim of something just no idea what of ,

Ye really shouldn't be surprised the comments are turned off and that she uses mass-blocklists when this is the discourse.

She probably gets much worse but this kind of coarse response is what I would imagine would really get to you if you were exposed to it en masse.

Gruffalux

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Ye really shouldn't be surprised the comments are turned off and that she uses mass-blocklists when this is the discourse.

She probably gets much worse but this kind of coarse response is what I would imagine would really get to you if you were exposed to it en masse.

There was some article a good while ago from a young woman heading off abroad after college and it was full of lamentation about how tough things were. Cannot remember the exact details - the past is a Monet painting for me! She had the piss ripped out of her for being so precious and whiny. No one is a sacred cow. If you are going to whine in the newspapers about practically nothing people are going to tell you to cop on.

Sir Oxman

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Ye really shouldn't be surprised the comments are turned off and that she uses mass-blocklists when this is the discourse.

She probably gets much worse but this kind of coarse response is what I would imagine would really get to you if you were exposed to it en masse.

And here we go.
Immediately offended on someone else's behalf.
I was wondering why the poster posted it as the post has zero to do with the thread subject.
I even gave a quick review free of charge - it's a generic lonely/alone at Christmas piece.


And as for using massive blockilists, that persons perogative (I think it's dumb esp. lists curated by Challenor but there you go) but are you arguing they would be 'literally murdered/harmed/injured' if they read my excoriating review? Hmm.

LLMMLL

Here we go again.

Trans person appears publicly and makes NO statement on trans rights.

As we can see, instead of letting this person go about their business, which is basically writing a generic article, they must now be criticised.

But you've all nothing against trans people. In factyoure actually great supporters of trans people.......

Sure.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Here we go again.

Trans person appears

With an article about being alone at Christmas , nothing to to with any ideology ,alot of people face Christmas alone or will struggle with mental health during the festive period ,it's nothing to do with trans unfortunately

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

With an article about being alone at Christmas , nothing to to with any ideology ,alot of people face Christmas alone or will struggle with mental health during the festive period ,it's nothing to do with trans unfortunately

Absolutely. So why is it part of this thread?

It's a pattern now.

Elliott Page - no mention of bathrooms or prisons or puberty blockers - looks sickly apparently.

Police woman - no mention of bathrooms etc. - not feminine enough, deranged looking apparently.

This woman - no mention of bathrooms etc. - "she blocked me on Twitter waaaaah".

But sure....you're all just concerned about bathrooms and prisons and puberty blockers and otherwise are fine with trans people.

I believe you.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Absolutely. So why is it part of this thread?

It's a free discussion isn't it ,some person playing the victim card and how many people they have blocked on twitter linking it to being trans or LGBT .

Did you ever answer that question previously asked ?

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

It's a free discussion isn't it ,some person playing the victim card and how many people they have blocked on twitter linking it to being trans or LGBT .

Did you ever answer that question previously asked ?

What question?

It's a free discussion. And evidence that people on this thread are not just concerned with bathrooms and prisons etc. But have a serious problem with all trans people.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

But have a serious problem with all trans people.

No one on this thread has been shown to have serious problems with trans people ,
There is an issue with people chasing their tails in circles over and over and if they don't get their way it's back to name calling

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

No one on this thread has been shown to have serious problems with trans people ,
There is an issue with people chasing their tails in circles over and over and if they don't get their way it's back to name calling

They clearly do. Criticising any trans person mentioned in the thread even when that trans person is not campaigning on the supposed issues of concern.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

They clearly do.

Not true at all .

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gruffalux wrote: »

Yes seems like a description of the year most of us have had and a lot of people feel crap at Christmas. My best friend's husband died at Christmas so she can hardly drag herself to put up decorations. It can be a hard time of year for many.
I had never heard of Aoife at all so had a google, being relentlessly curious. In the first article they said they have blocked 100,000 twitter accounts due to relentless trolling. I thought Jesus that sounds terrible, whats going on there. Googled their twitter account and clicked on. I am blocked! Literally never ever heard of them before. Thats 99,999 accounts so, blocked for relentless trolling.

Dude, how does anyone have the TIME to do that much blocking?

Gruffalux

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Dude, how does anyone have the TIME to do that much blocking?

I think it must be some kind of list thing. I wouldn't mind but I have no followers on Twitter and almost never post or retweet. I am there to read stuff. I suppose the list might be based on some of the people I read.

But the thing is this hyping a victim identity - It's not as if everyone has not got some burden weighing on their backs. You know this better than most.

I read quite a few articles by trans people and they are interesting and thoughtful. Like this poignant one I read yesterday by Debbie Hayton. https://www.hoodmagazine.co.uk/blog/debbie-hayton-journey

Gentlemanne

Sir Oxman wrote: »

I even gave a quick review free of charge - it's a generic lonely/alone at Christmas piece.

Gatling wrote: »

it's nothing to do with trans unfortunately

It is actually, if you actually finished this tiny article you can see there is a bit about LGBT people coming home to family, the pain of hiding your identity, how she hasn't seen her family in four years since transitioning etc. etc.

So can you blame me about criticising your cynical responses when you didn't even read the article? There's a real unfortunate negative bias towards trans people here that just prevents any objective discussion.

jam_mac_jam

Gentlemanne wrote: »

It is actually, if you actually finished this tiny article you can see there is a bit about LGBT people coming home to family, the pain of hiding your identity, how she hasn't seen her family in four years since transitioning etc. etc.

So can you blame me about criticising your cynical responses when you didn't even read the article? There's a real unfortunate negative bias towards trans people here that just prevents any objective discussion.

Yeah I thought it was relevant as well. She was actually talking about feeling like you have to hide who you are in front of your family

Which is quite sad that you feel your family would judge you for something that you have no control over. I would hate to think my son had to hide who he was.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gruffalux wrote: »

I think it must be some kind of list thing. I wouldn't mind but I have no followers on Twitter and almost never post or retweet. I am there to read stuff. I suppose the list might be based on some of the people I read.

But that’s even more ridonk because you are blocking people for no reason then. It’s like here on boards.ie. If I blocked anyone I disagreed with on something, there’d be nobody left. I’ve something like three people blocked and that’s just because they’re wafflers, not because I disagree with them.

But the thing is this hyping a victim identity - It's not as if everyone has not got some burden weighing on their backs. You know this better than most.

Indeed, almost luxuriating in it. Whereas most people will do anything to avoid being thought a victim.

Gruffalux

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Yeah I thought it was relevant as well. She was actually talking about feeling like you have to hide who you are in front of your family

Which is quite sad that you feel your family would judge you for something that you have no control over. I would hate to think my son had to hide who he was.

I agree with you - there is an element of real sadness. But it is more due to a universal condition of being human and I feel it is being politicised with an end goal of stopping debate in this case. Making one feel like a horrid jerk for saying there are issues.

Aoife is 50 and their family may be elderly and find it hard to accept their transition as they lived as a father to their grandchildren/nieces/nephews and husband to their daughter in law before, and was their son up until 3 years ago. It might be hard for those older people to smoothly accept what has happened. That is hard for Aoife to work with. But that is not actually an unusual experience for a million reasons for many people, and does not mean trans people are getting it harder than other people. It is just life, it seems like in this case.

I have read around a bit about Aoife now and they seem to have a stellar career, have great success in their job, be widely appreciated by their colleagues, well-liked and respected, been supported really warmly in their transition and they have a very public role in trans activism via TENI. They have even had their face projected onto the GPO. They seem to be doing very well in most aspects of their life. It is a shame that there is a fly in the ointment for them with their family, but that does not mean life is sh1t for trans people.

One can appreciate the success and the political activism of Aoife and their right to pursue their goals, while at the same time acknowledging there is another very important side to the debate.
That other side is being more and more defined as some kind of hate speech, and that depiction is only aided by a very successful and obviously popular person like Aoife promoting themselves publicly in newspapers and magazines as belonging firmly in the victim category, talking about 100,000 trolls, and how dreadful it is for them not to be accepted. On the contrary they seem to be widely accepted and celebrated.

Sometimes one is not accepted by one's family and it is just because of the family being dicks. Or upset. Or nervous. Or old. Or whatever. It is not a reflection on the whole category of trans people, or because one is gay or poor or did not do what one's parents had wanted or whatever. I have known dreadful long term non-acceptance from my own family in the past for various reasons, but that was them, not the whole world, and I did not try to make a generalised experience of what the world does to me or ''people like me''.

To do so would be to politicise or propagandise a personal experience and try to use it as leverage.

One is not a contemptible person for saying grand job, be a trans woman, etc., but hey, there are important issues to be debated here regarding conflicts of rights and ideological influence on medical treatment of minors, for example. I find the narrative is about trying to shame people into silence.

Recently I have been thinking I would like to interview well-known Irish trans people and find out what they think about pubertal blockers and self ID access to prisons and such matters. I would be genuinely interested in what older activists like Lydia Foy think about these matters, for example. There are many trans people who disagree with trans activist goals and we do not hear about that so much. Up until a few weeks ago affirmation was on the good side of history in the UK - now there are serious question marks.

This kind of thing..

Gatling

Gentlemanne wrote: »

It is actually, if you actually finished this tiny article you can see there is a bit about LGBT people coming home to family, the pain of hiding your identity,

when you didn't even read the article?

I read the tiny article and still have the same opinion ,poor little me all alone on Christmas like tens to thousands of people for various reasons ,
Hiding ones identifies does make them any more special than anyone else who will spend Christmas alone

Gruffalux

For example, while I do believe that trans people should be addressed, especially officially, by their chosen pronouns, I think even more so that for a raped person to have to address their rapist in court as if they are a woman must be really traumatising.
There is an example of a genuine moral conflict and there are no easy answers that can be dictated by ideology.
If the victim experienced being raped by a man then I think they should be permitted to tell their story in court as per their real experience. that is my opinion. Others obviously think differently but it is not hate speech to question it.

https://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/enews/enews-16-12-2020
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/warning-over-transgender-guidance-to-judges/5103196.article

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

I agree with you - there is an element of real sadness. But it is more due to a universal condition of being human and I feel it is being politicised with an end goal of stopping debate in this case. Making one feel like a horrid jerk for saying there are issues.

Aoife is 50 and their family may be elderly and find it hard to accept their transition as they lived as a father to their grandchildren/nieces/nephews and husband to their daughter in law before, and was their son up until 3 years ago. It might be hard for those older people to smoothly accept what has happened. That is hard for Aoife to work with. But that is not actually an unusual experience for a million reasons for many people, and does not mean trans people are getting it harder than other people. It is just life, it seems like in this case.

I have read around a bit about Aoife now and they seem to have a stellar career, have great success in their job, be widely appreciated by their colleagues, well-liked and respected, been supported really warmly in their transition and they have a very public role in trans activism via TENI. They have even had their face projected onto the GPO. They seem to be doing very well in most aspects of their life. It is a shame that there is a fly in the ointment for them with their family, but that does not mean life is sh1t for trans people.

One can appreciate the success and the political activism of Aoife and their right to pursue their goals, while at the same time acknowledging there is another very important side to the debate.
That other side is being more and more defined as some kind of hate speech, and that depiction is only aided by a very successful and obviously popular person like Aoife promoting themselves publicly in newspapers and magazines as belonging firmly in the victim category, talking about 100,000 trolls, and how dreadful it is for them not to be accepted. On the contrary they seem to be widely accepted and celebrated.

Sometimes one is not accepted by one's family and it is just because of the family being dicks. Or upset. Or nervous. Or old. Or whatever. It is not a reflection on the whole category of trans people, or because one is gay or poor or did not do what one's parents had wanted or whatever. I have known dreadful long term non-acceptance from my own family in the past for various reasons, but that was them, not the whole world, and I did not try to make a generalised experience of what the world does to me or ''people like me''.

To do so would be to politicise or propagandise a personal experience and try to use it as leverage.

One is not a contemptible person for saying grand job, be a trans woman, etc., but hey, there are important issues to be debated here regarding conflicts of rights and ideological influence on medical treatment of minors, for example. I find the narrative is about trying to shame people into silence.

Recently I have been thinking I would like to interview well-known Irish trans people and find out what they think about pubertal blockers and self ID access to prisons and such matters. I would be genuinely interested in what older activists like Lydia Foy think about these matters, for example. There are many trans people who disagree with trans activist goals and we do not hear about that so much. Up until a few weeks ago affirmation was on the good side of history in the UK - now there are serious question marks.

This kind of thing..

I'm sure aoife knows what the issue is in her own family. I don't think it's the place of random internet people to say "oh maybe they're just dicks and it's nothing to do with being trans" when they've zero knowledge of the person's personal circumstances.

I think you've made clear what I've been saying all along. The TERF side can claim to have no issue with trans people as individuals. But a trans person living their life successfully is automatically a political statement about bathrooms prisons and puberty blockers to these people and as per the TERF ideology, must be taken down by criticism.

You're welcome to interview Lydia Foy. You might not like what you hear though. You seem to be trying to claim older trans people would support your viewpoint. There is no evidence that's true.

Gatling

Gruffalux wrote: »

https://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/enews/enews-16-12-2020
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/warning-over-transgender-guidance-to-judges/5103196.article

That's plain wrong if a woman is raped by a man and that man then self identifies as a woman ,in court they then become the victim due to misgendering .

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gruffalux wrote: »

For example, while I do believe that trans people should be addressed, especially officially, by their chosen pronouns, I think even more so that for a raped person to have to address their rapist in court as if they are a woman must be really traumatising.
There is an example of a genuine moral conflict and there are no easy answers that can be dictated by ideology.
If the victim experienced being raped by a man then I think they should be permitted to tell their story in court as per their real experience. that is my opinion. Others obviously think differently but it is not hate speech to question it.

https://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/enews/enews-16-12-2020
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/warning-over-transgender-guidance-to-judges/5103196.article

And also, if the victim believes that they were attacked by a man, isn’t making them use female pronouns asking them to lie under oath?

There was a real life example of this in the UK a few years ago where a woman was assaulted by a transgender woman (she was convicted) and the judge told the victim to say ‘she’ and ‘her’ or she would be held in contempt of court.

Sir Oxman

Gentlemanne wrote: »

It is actually, if you actually finished this tiny article you can see there is a bit about LGBT people coming home to family, the pain of hiding your identity, how she hasn't seen her family in four years since transitioning etc. etc.

So can you blame me about criticising your cynical responses when you didn't even read the article? There's a real unfortunate negative bias towards trans people here that just prevents any objective discussion.

I did read it.
I have read hundreds of the same genre, year after year.
That's why it is generic, is it cynical to call it that or truthful? How does that hurt anyone?
Do you constantly through life, take offence on behalf of other people?
Do you constantly declare you 'know' just like you 'know' I didn't read it or is it you 'know' I didn't finish it, make up your mind.
I mean, what is wrong here - you can maybe see if you take the plank from your eye.

Objectivity - try it sometime

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And also, if the victim believes that they were attacked by a man, isn’t making them use female pronouns asking them to lie under oath?

There was a real life example of this in the UK a few years ago where a woman was assaulted by a transgender woman (she was convicted) and the judge told the victim to say ‘she’ and ‘her’ or she would be held in contempt of court.

Since you ask, the answer is no, the witness for the Prosecution is not being asked to lie under oath. They are expected to adhere to trial procedures by referring to the defendant, who is presumed innocent, by their preferred title. For the very same reason, a witness could be found in contempt if they were to refer to the defendant as a scumbag. It may well be true from the witnesses perspective, but that doesn’t mean the witness is free to say what they want.

Gruffalux

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Since you ask, the answer is no, the witness for the Prosecution is not being asked to lie under oath. They are expected to adhere to trial procedures by referring to the defendant, who is presumed innocent, by their preferred title. For the very same reason, a witness could be found in contempt if they were to refer to the defendant as a scumbag. It may well be true from the witnesses perspective, but that doesn’t mean the witness is free to say what they want.

Being prevented from saying in court I was raped by this scumbag may be understandable from the point of view of presumption of innocence. Being constrained by law to testify in court that during the incident in such and such a place she then forced her penis inside me would be a legislative requirement that would make me feel quite cross. If it was my mother or auntie or sister or brother or friend being forced to say that by law at a trial I would find it brutal and subversive.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

Being prevented from saying in court I was raped by this scumbag may be understandable from the point of view of presumption of innocence. Being constrained by law to testify in court that during the incident in such and such a place she then forced her penis inside me would be a legislative requirement that would make me feel quite cross. If it was my mother or auntie or sister or brother or friend being forced to say that by law at a trial I would find it brutal and subversive.

Completely understandable from my point of view anyway. I think this may have been the case ODB was referring to in the UK -


Judge Warns Assault Victim to Use Preferred Pronoun for Her Attacker During Testimony

GreeBo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Since you ask, the answer is no, the witness for the Prosecution is not being asked to lie under oath. They are expected to adhere to trial procedures by referring to the defendant, who is presumed innocent, by their preferred title. For the very same reason, a witness could be found in contempt if they were to refer to the defendant as a scumbag. It may well be true from the witnesses perspective, but that doesn’t mean the witness is free to say what they want.

In that case the victim is perfectly entitled to say get rapist was a man, if the defendant wants to prove that the rapist is now a woman, go right ahead, but expect to get convicted of rape.

If the victim was penetrated by a penis are we still calling the rapist "she"?

One eyed Jack

GreeBo wrote: »

In that case the victim is perfectly entitled to say get rapist was a man

A witness isn’t perfectly entitled to say anything! Let’s at least be clear about that much.

GreeBo wrote: »

if the defendant wants to prove that the rapist is now a woman, go right ahead, but expect to get convicted of rape.

Not sure how you make that out. It’s not the defendants obligation to prove they’re not guilty of rape, that’s the job of the prosecution to prove they are guilty of rape.

GreeBo wrote: »

If the victim was penetrated by a penis are we still calling the rapist "she"?

Different standards apply in a court of law than in the court of public opinion. One could refer to the defendant how they wanted, at the risk of being found in contempt of court.

SchrodingersCat

To those who have difficulty in using some of the pronouns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt5qJC1xQ8A