Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

ingalway

km991148 wrote: »

Surely the prison situation has to be taken on a case by case basis.

At one end of the extreme you have someone convicted of a crime (sexual or otherwise) and literally the next day decide to identify as a gender more appropriate to the opposite sex.
At the other end, someone who has done so for years (taken hormones the lot).

In the male to female case, surely then the strength argument etc doesn't apply (in the later case)?

I would have thought this much is obvious, hence why I was talking about the difference between individual cases and generalisations earlier.

That is exactly the problem with all of this - Self ID.

No meaningful attempts whatsoever needed to proclaim yourself the opposite sex. Anyone, for any reason, without ever seeing a doctor, a counsellor, taken a hormone or even bothered to shave their beard can declare themselves a woman. Crazy, open to massive abuse therefore dangerous.
Trans people have lived with us for years and I think most decent people have tried to be accepting of them. Those that lived in their preferred way, often in difficult situations and taking much bravery, had to spend a lengthy time doing that to see how it worked for them, they had to receive counselling before then going on to get medical support - hormonal/surgical - if that was appropriate for them.

Those people are not the same as someone who signs a one page form and gets a Gender Recognition Cert in the post.

Self ID, I believe, is terrible for everyone.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Rodin wrote: »

Chances are the poster has never even met a transperson never mind had one as a doctor.
The discussion around the topic is completely at odds with its prevalence.

I have actually.

Again, the ‘rareness’ thing. How does that matter to the person it’s happening to?

LLMMLL

km991148 wrote: »

Your questing is ridiculous - but wait - let me go and ask my imaginary 16 year old daughter how she feels about using the imaginary swimming pool that doesn't have a communal changing room. And then I will put my imaginary feelings on it.

Can you give me more details about this 50 year old? Are we talking convicted sex offender or just some nice old lady who used to be a man?

That's not deflection, that's calling out made up stuff. How can you expect anyone to take this seriously?

It doesn't even make sense. Why choose a 50 year.old man to make their argument. Are people in their 50s supposed to be more pervy or something?

Sir Oxman

LLMMLL wrote: »

I have to say it's nice to see the support for trans people on this new thread. I know they'll all eventually be chased away like in the old thread but for now it's quite lovely.

There was always a majority opinion on the old thread that genuine dysphoric people need support.
People opposing an opposite view does not equate to being 'anti-trans' no matter how much the conversation is constantly pushed in that direction.
One person chased themselves away from the 'old thread' and it's there for all to see in the feedback/helpdesk place.
Different viewpoints and debating points are always welcome, deliberate disruption isn't.

IAMAMORON

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

You asked for a list.
You got a list.

Now you've a problem with the list.

I think in a world of 8 billion people, using a list of 50 transgendered persons who play sport is not highly relevant on the argument as a whole?

There are instances of professional sportspersons who are transgendered but they are not material to any pertaining arguments on transgender.

I can fit 50 people on half a badminton court, it is not a big number.

Put simply it will not do as any whataboutery when it comes to the human rights of transgenders, nor should it. Most transgenders aren't even playing sport.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

How would you know if it was a trans person searching you? Would you ask woman with stereotypically masculine facial features to confirm she is a cis woman?

The women competing against Hannah Mouncey know they are a trans person.
The women charged with supervising Barbie Kardashian in social care knew they are a trans person.
The women imprisoned and sexually assaulted by Karen White knew they are a trans person.
The women sued for not waxing Yaniv knew they are a transperson.
The girls who lost out on University sports scholarships to Cece Telfer or Andraya Yearwood knew they are trans girls.
The women whose rape crises centre was defunded in Vancouver as a result of vindictive action by Morgane Oger know Oger is a trans person.

It is not as hard as you imagine to spot the people taking the piss.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The fact that you refuse to admit that transgenders are entitled to equal rights for starters?

Direct me to where I have said that. The quote, please.

Sittingpretty

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I think in a world of 8 billion people, using a list of 50 transgendered persons who play sport is not highly relevant on the argument as a whole?

There are instances of professional sportspersons who are transgendered but they are not material to any pertaining arguments on transgender.

I can fit 50 people on half a badminton court, it is not a big number.

Put simply it will not do as any whataboutery when it comes to the human rights of transgenders, nor should it. Most transgenders aren't even playing sport.

And how many girls or women do you think those 50 men identifying as women have ousted from teams/competitions because they’re to weak at their chosen sport to compete within their own sex so they have to identify as women to use their biological advantage to win something?

IAMAMORON

Eric Cartman wrote: »

what percentage of the general population ever become notable athletes ? less than 0.1% ?

how many trans athletes would you need for it to be a 'fair example'
those goal posts are going to fall apart if you shift them anymore.

There is no argument.

A list of 50 professional sportspersons who also are transgendered has no argument on their basic rights , at all.

No goal posts have been moved, what is your argument?

Eric Cartman

IAMAMORON wrote: »

There is no argument.

A list of 50 professional sportspersons who also are transgendered has no argument on their basic rights , at all.

No goal posts have been moved, what is your argument?

you're the one who asked for a list....

Sittingpretty

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I think in a world of 8 billion people, using a list of 50 transgendered persons who play sport is not highly relevant on the argument as a whole?

There are instances of professional sportspersons who are transgendered but they are not material to any pertaining arguments on transgender.

I can fit 50 people on half a badminton court, it is not a big number.

Put simply it will not do as any whataboutery when it comes to the human rights of transgenders, nor should it. Most transgenders aren't even playing sport.

Women and girls who haves worked all their sporting lives to reach elitism in their chosen field only to be beaten by a man who is below average in his own sex.

Have you ANY understanding of how gutting that must me?

Of course you don’t because you are a man and it doesn’t effect you. So who gives a f if a few women/girls get put out eh.

Be kind my arse.

ingalway

LLMMLL wrote: »

A trans woman doctor is a woman.

And a violated woman Is free to choose her doctor. None of them actually care whether their doctor is trans or not so it's not actually going to matter

A trans woman doctor is a trans woman doctor but is not female

IAMAMORON

Gervais08 wrote: »

Transgender activists got probably the greatest woman athlete ever - and massive gay and lesbian advocate - Martina Navratilova kicked off a governing body.

Don’t tell me they have no sway in elite sport.

Thanks for pointing this out.

But what is your point?

mohawk

MynamesColm wrote: »

Isnt this something for sports organisations to police. Don't many do this already by having limits on testosterone and such?

What happens on the day sporting bodies are no longer allowed differentiate between transwomen and women without getting into legal trouble.

You might be okay with people who went through male puberty being involved in contact sports with women, but some of us are not okay with that.

My young lad is in primary school most of kids in his class are 10 and already the girls do not want to play soccer or similar with the boys as they are too strong and too fast. This is before puberty and most of these girls are fairly sporty with fairly full sporting extra curriculars. Once puberty hits most teenage boys will be stronger and faster then adult women.

IAMAMORON

Sittingpretty wrote: »

Women and girls who haves worked all their sporting lives to reach elitism in their chosen field only to be beaten by a man who is below average in his own sex.

Have you ANY understanding of how gutting that must me?

Of course you don’t because you are a man and it doesn’t effect you. So who gives a f if a few women/girls get put out eh.

Be kind my arse.

Give me an example of this please?

Wibbs

LLMMLL wrote: »

A trans woman doctor is a woman.

No. No they are not. As I have said I would extend the courtesy of addressing anyone by how they wish to be addressed, but by every other metric down to the marrow they are not a woman. This is an unassailable medically scientifically provable fact. I know of late feelings seem to overwrite facts(when they suit) but it's an utter nonsense to the point of delusion. Unless at some time in the future medical science can change every chromosome in the human body, reverse the changes of puberty and grow different bodily tissues in the lab for transplant this will remain the reality.

Sittingpretty

mohawk wrote: »

What happens on the day sporting bodies are no longer allowed differentiate between transwomen and women without getting into legal trouble.

You might be okay with people who went through male puberty being involved in contact sports with women, but some of us are not okay with that.

My young lad is in primary school most of kids in his class are 10 and already the girls do not want to play soccer or similar with the boys as they are too strong and too fast. This is before puberty and most of these girls are fairly sporty with fairly full sporting extra curriculars. Once puberty hits most teenage boys will be stronger and faster then adult women.

I’ve mentioned this on the other thread, I have a 10 year old son. I have to give my absolute ALL to beat him at an arm wrestle and I’m in my 40’s. He hasn’t even approached puberty yet. The biological advantage men have over women is huge and not to be underestimated when considering trans women competing as actual females.

ingalway

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Give me an example of this please?

In the history of the world has there ever been a more appropriate user name?

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Thanks for pointing this out.

But what is your point?

what, precisely, do you think people should be allowed to discuss on this thread?

seeing as nobody has been able to say anything at all so far without abrasive challenge or evasion from yourself


the game is clear, its been seen on these threads before.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

The women competing against Hannah Mouncey know they are a trans person.
The women charged with supervising Barbie Kardashian in social care knew they are a trans person.
The women imprisoned and sexually assaulted by Karen White knew they are a trans person.
The women sued for not waxing Yaniv knew they are a transperson.
The girls who lost out on University sports scholarships to Cece Telfer or Andraya Yearwood knew they are trans girls.
The women whose rape crises centre was defunded in Vancouver as a result of vindictive action by Morgane Oger know Oger is a trans person.

It is not as hard as you imagine to spot the people taking the piss.

Usually they know because they've been told.

So tell me. How would YOU know if you weren't directly told? What are the features we should be looking out for to identify trans people?

Sittingpretty

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Give me an example of this please?

You’ve already been given examples. I’m not your class tutor.

There’s this wonderful page on the Internet called Google. You have all night allegedly, check it out.

MynamesColm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports

Trans men[edit]
Kye Allums, basketball
Schuyler Bailar, swimming
Mack Beggs,[53] wrestling
Harrison Browne, ice hockey
Balian Buschbaum,[54] pole vault
Willy De Bruijn, cycling
Keelin Godsey, hammer throw[55]
Zdeněk Koubek, track
Andreas Krieger, shot put
Patricio Manuel, boxing
Chris Mosier, triathlon, duathlon
Cory Oskam, ice hockey [56]
Erik Schinegger, skiing
Mark Weston, athletics
Trans women[edit]
Tifanny Abreu, volleyball
Alessia Almeri,[57] volleyball
Mianne Bagger, golf
Savannah Burton
Parinya Charoenphol, Thai boxing
JayCee Cooper,[58] Powerlifting, Roller Derby
Roberta Cowell, motor sports
Yanelle Del Mar Zape,[59] Track and Field
Athena Del Rosario, football(soccer) and beach handball [60]
Michelle Duff
Michelle Dumaresq
Fallon Fox, mixed martial arts
Natalie van Gogh, cycling
Laurel Hubbard, weightlifting
Veronica Ivy,[61][62] cycling
Lauren Jeska, fell running
Janae Kroc
Caroline Layt,[59][63][64] Rugby League, Rugby Union and Track and Field
Bobbi Lancaster, golf
Samantha 'Sammy' Walker, Football (Soccer)[65]
Kellie Maloney
Kirsti Miller,[66] Modern Pentathlon, Aquathon and AFL
Terri Miller, track and field (high school) [67]
Cate McGregor, cricket
Hannah Mouncey, handball and Australian football
Laura Nagtegaal,[68][69] disc golf
Renée Richards, tennis
Jaiyah Saelua
Britney Stinson,[70] American football, baseball
CeCe Telfer, track and field [71]
Andraya Yearwood, track and field (high school)
Charlie Christina Martin, motor sports

In fairness the list means nothing unless you look at the specifics.


Took a random few names and had a look at their wikis:


Fallon Fox (an mma fighter): Licensed fighter with strict rules for licensing trans fighters. "to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ..., including external genitalia and gonadectomy and subsequently a minimum of two years of hormone replacement therapy, administered by a board certified specialist."




Cate McGregor: Over 60s cricketer, "uses drug therapy, has high levels of oestrogen and no longer produces testosterone."


Hardly reads like there's a crisis in world sports.

IAMAMORON

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you're the one who asked for a list....

Yes and thanks for posting.

But as I said , a list of 50 persons has no real basis on gender identity or gender rights or human rights for that matter.

Just because there may be instances where particular sports bodies are having to address the issue does not have any relevance on their human rights?

As I said the list is very small, it is basically meaningless. In saying that, the precedents which each sports body ( excuse the pun ) adopts will have consequences down the line for the sport, but there is a bigger picture.

This is about addressing the human rights of transsexuals, not what size boxing gloves they should be wearing.

km991148

LLMMLL wrote: »

Usually they know because they've been told.

So tell me. How would YOU know if you weren't directly told? What are the features we should be looking out for to identify trans people?

Waaaay more pervy in swimming pools for a start.

Like waaaaaaaaaaaay more.

Gruffalux

Wibbs wrote: »

No. No they are not. As I have said I would extend the courtesy of addressing anyone by how they wish to be addressed, but by every other metric down to the marrow they are not a woman. This is an unassailable medically scientifically provable fact. I know of late feelings seem to overwrite facts(when they suit) but it's an utter nonsense to the point of delusion. Unless at some time in the future medical science can change every chromosome in the human body, reverse the changes of puberty and grow different bodily tissues in the lab for transplant this will remain the reality.

How come you don't get called a TERF? Not fair.

"Show me some evidence"

*gives evidence


"No no, not that evidence, different evidence"




Only on Boards...

LLMMLL

km991148 wrote: »

Waaaay more pervy in swimming pools for a start.

Like waaaaaaaaaaaay more.

Likely to be in their 50s as well

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

Usually they know because they've been told.

So tell me. How would YOU know if you weren't directly told? What are the features we should be looking out for to identify trans people?

In none of those cases would anyone have to be told.

km991148

LLMMLL wrote: »

Likely to be in their 50s as well

Should be put in jail if you ask me :pac:


My imaginary 16 year old hasn't got back to me yet. If I don't get an answer tonight shes getting imaginary grounded for two weeks. The problem these days is a lack of discipline in hypothetical teenagers.

jam_mac_jam

MynamesColm wrote: »

In fairness the list means nothing unless you look at the specifics.


Took a random few names and had a look at their wikis:


Fallon Fox (an mma fighter): Licensed fighter with strict rules for licensing trans fighters. "to be licensed, transgender female fighters must undergo complete "surgical anatomical changes ..., including external genitalia and gonadectomy and subsequently a minimum of two years of hormone replacement therapy, administered by a board certified specialist."




Cate McGregor: Over 60s cricketer, "uses drug therapy, has high levels of oestrogen and no longer produces testosterone."


Hardly reads like there's a crisis in world sports.

She smashed a woman's skull. What's the big deal?