Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

One eyed Jack

suicide_circus wrote: »

Would it not be in the interest of genuinely gender dysphoric people to call out situations like this?

It’s not unreasonable to assume that people who experience gender dysphoria aren’t unlike most people in that they don’t care much for identity politics.

CtevenSrowder

suicide_circus wrote: »

Would it not be in the interest of genuinely gender dysphoric people to call out situations like this?

Why should they have to? The onus shouldn't be on me to have to call out a non-trans rapist.

GreeBo

AMKC wrote: »

A Transgender person is a person born into the wrong body and assigned the wrong sex from birth.
They are not some social construct that someone can just decide either does or does not exist.

Hmm, so if I was to say that a trans person is just a person born into the wrong mind, how would that go down with you?

Btw, sex is assigned based on biology, would you prefer we asked the newborn for their pronouns?

Gatling

suicide_circus wrote: »

Would it not be in the interest of genuinely gender dysphoric people to call out situations like this?

I'd imagine we would only get gay men complaining on their behalf,

Instead we will get some nonsical attempt at but they are women ...

MynamesColm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Would it not be in the interest of genuinely gender dysphoric people to call out situations like this?

How do you know the person isn't genuine?



I don't quite understand the point of posting that story, except to say that trans people can be as abusive as anybody else.

Gatling

MynamesColm wrote: »

How do you know the person isn't genuine?

Man violently rapes woman then decides he self identifies as a woman for judicial reasons ie lighter sentence and being sent to a "women's" prison on conviction ,so violent offender gets sent to to a target rich environment.
And not for the first newly registered

MynamesColm

Gatling wrote: »

Man violently rapes woman then decides he self identifies as a woman for judicial reasons ie lighter sentence and being sent to a "women's" prison on conviction ,so violent offender gets sent to to a target rich environment.
And not for the first newly registered

But there's nothing in the metro story to imply the person decided to identify as a woman for judicial reasons after the crime was committed. I don't think the opinion piece implies it either.



I don't think either article even states what type of prison that Winter is being sent to.


Maybe you didn't post a link to the story that says Winter only identified as female after committing the crime, and talks about the considerations taken as to where Winter should serve time?

suicide_circus

MynamesColm wrote: »

How do you know the person isn't genuine?

Call it a hunch

MynamesColm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Call it a hunch

A hunch, an assumption, a feeling, whatever you want to call it doesn't matter. The person has been sentenced to 15 years in prison, and there is no information provided to say what type of prison the person is going to or what considerations were taken into account to send that person there.



The RT piece links to the policy that informs these considerations, reading that policy might give you some bit of comfort?

Gatling

MynamesColm wrote: »

, and talks about the considerations taken as to where Winter should serve time?

Where do you think they should serve time .

Men's prison or womens prison .

MynamesColm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Call it a hunch

Gatling wrote: »

Where do you think they should serve time .

Men's prison or womens prison .

Based on a 9 sentence metro article where do I think someone should go to prison? I think those kinds of decisions are best left to people who have all the information and facts necessary to make that decision.



Is that your only worry when it comes to gender recognition? The worry about how criminals who lie about their gender are housed?



Have you read the policy for how these decisions are made in Ireland? (I don't know what that policy is). Maybe you'll be happy that this is actually a non issue? Does that means you'd actually have no qualms about gender recognition in Ireland after that?

Gatling

MynamesColm wrote: »

I think those kinds of decisions are best left to people who

Ahhh one of those so ......

suicide_circus

It's an absurdity, Colm, that's what it boils down to for me. Trangenderism is just a social construct after all.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

MynamesColm wrote: »

How do you know the person isn't genuine?



I don't quite understand the point of posting that story, except to say that trans people can be as abusive as anybody else.

Well, it shows why many women are concerned. Males are responsible for the vast majority of violent and sexual crimes and there’s no reason why transgender women would be any different from other males in that regard. Yet the safeguards society has put in place to give females their own spaces have been weakened here in Ireland by allowing this arbitrary exemption.

Gruffalux

https://twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1351632859950411777?s=19

Between 2015 and 2019 the number of women sexually abusing children rose by 84%.

I am not saying women do not abuse children- they most certainly do.

However an 84% increase in 4 years is very unlikely. What is more likely is that crimes are being recorded as per the gender the abuser identifies.

This is wrong.

Gruffalux

MynamesColm wrote: »

Based on a 9 sentence metro article where do I think someone should go to prison? I think those kinds of decisions are best left to people who have all the information and facts necessary to make that decision.



Is that your only worry when it comes to gender recognition? The worry about how criminals who lie about their gender are housed?



Have you read the policy for how these decisions are made in Ireland? (I don't know what that policy is). Maybe you'll be happy that this is actually a non issue? Does that means you'd actually have no qualms about gender recognition in Ireland after that?

There are 2 very violent male bodied sex offenders in female prison in Ireland. It is not a non issue.

MynamesColm

Gatling wrote: »

Ahhh one of those so ......

A person who needs information to make a decision? I would think it'd benefit you too.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, it shows why many women are concerned. Males are responsible for the vast majority of violent and sexual crimes and there’s no reason why transgender women would be any different from other males in that regard. Yet the safeguards society has put in place to give females their own spaces have been weakened here in Ireland by allowing this arbitrary exemption.

Now that's different to what the poster of the two links was worried about. Gatling was worried that the person who committed the crime would decide to identify as female to go to a women's prison.

Man violently rapes woman then decides he self identifies as a woman for judicial reasons ie lighter sentence and being sent to a "women's" prison on conviction ,so violent offender gets sent to to a target rich environment.
And not for the first newly registered

I do agree that there should be policies in place that safeguard inmates (male and female). However, I do not necessarily agree that this should limit a persons ability to self identify.

Gatling

MynamesColm wrote: »

Gatling was worried t

No I'm not .

Must be the weekend

MynamesColm

Gruffalux wrote: »

There are 2 very violent male bodied sex offenders in female prison in Ireland. It is not a non issue.

You write that as if they are interacting with their fellow inmates, but according to the indo they are kept apart from the other inmates in the prisons at all times.





https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/prison-officers-demand-guidelines-on-transgender-inmates-39637102.html

suicide_circus

MynamesColm wrote: »

according to the indo they are kept apart from the other inmates in the prisons at all times.

Why would that be?

MynamesColm

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's an absurdity, Colm, that's what it boils down to for me. Trangenderism is just a social construct after all.

At least you're honest about it, not trying to pretend it's a matter of female prisoner's safety, or unfair sporting ability!

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

https://twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1351632859950411777?s=19

Between 2015 and 2019 the number of women sexually abusing children rose by 84%.

I am not saying women do not abuse children- they most certainly do.

However an 84% increase in 4 years is very unlikely. What is more likely is that crimes are being recorded as per the gender the abuser identifies.

This is wrong.

It’s really not, when you look at the actual figures for the numbers of reports in which the child abuser was reported to be female -


Victims of female child sexual abusers face "enormous stigma and shame", according to police and charities.

Figures from BBC Radio 4's File on 4 show there were over 10,400 reports of this type of abuse from 2015 to 2019 - equivalent to an average of 40 a week.

Experts say there is still a "lack of understanding" about the extent of such abuse.

The UK government said it would not allow "any safe space for sex offenders to operate - male or female".

Between 2015 and 2019, the numbers of reported cases of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse to police in England and Wales rose from 1,249 to 2,297 - an increase of 84%.

Female child sex abuse 'remains taboo' while victims struggle


The authors of that tweet are being purposely disingenuous.

CtevenSrowder

MynamesColm wrote: »

Based on a 9 sentence metro article where do I think someone should go to prison? I think those kinds of decisions are best left to people who have all the information and facts necessary to make that decision.



Is that your only worry when it comes to gender recognition? The worry about how criminals who lie about their gender are housed?



Have you read the policy for how these decisions are made in Ireland? (I don't know what that policy is). Maybe you'll be happy that this is actually a non issue? Does that means you'd actually have no qualms about gender recognition in Ireland after that?

The only fact that matters is that they are male and as such should be sent to prison containing other men (males).

Gruffalux

MynamesColm wrote: »

You write that as if they are interacting with their fellow inmates, but according to the indo they are kept apart from the other inmates in the prisons at all times.





https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/prison-officers-demand-guidelines-on-transgender-inmates-39637102.html

The should not be housed in the female estate. That is all.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

MynamesColm wrote: »

Now that's different to what the poster of the two links was worried about. Gatling was worried that the person who committed the crime would decide to identify as female to go to a women's prison.

I probably left out a few linking sentences. Said them in my head, didn’t write them down. My view is this: it doesn’t matter if it’s somebody pretending or if it’s somebody who is genuinely transgender. Either way, it’s troubling and it starts at the court case. We’ve already had a case in the UK where a physical assault victim (the perpetrator was found guilty) was told by the judge that she had to use she/her pronouns when referring to the perpetrator. That to me is perverse.

Then, whether the convicted transgender woman is genuine or not, it’s crappy for the female inmates. Most female inmates are not in for violent crime. Yes, there are naturally some violent female inmates. But a male inmate is far more likely to be violent and will almost certainly be stronger too. It’s making a situation that isn’t 100% safe even less safe. I’m not sure why ensuring the safety of transgender women prisoners means worsening the safety of the female estate. Surely a solution can be found that doesn’t throw women under the bus?

MynamesColm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I probably left out a few linking sentences. Said them in my head, didn’t write them down. My view is this: it doesn’t matter if it’s somebody pretending or if it’s somebody who is genuinely transgender. Either way, it’s troubling and it starts at the court case. We’ve already had a case in the UK where a physical assault victim (the perpetrator was found guilty) was told by the judge that she had to use she/her pronouns when referring to the perpetrator. That to me is perverse.

Then, whether the convicted transgender woman is genuine or not, it’s crappy for the female inmates. Most female inmates are not in for violent crime. Yes, there are naturally some violent female inmates. But a male inmate is far more likely to be violent and will almost certainly be stronger too. It’s making a situation that isn’t 100% safe even less safe. I’m not sure why ensuring the safety of transgender women prisoners means worsening the safety of the female estate. Surely a solution can be found that doesn’t throw women under the bus?

I agree with you to a point. Policies should be in place to keep all inmates as safe as possible. I certainly don't claim to be all knowledgeable about prison related matters and polices.



However, for the most part I see it as irrelevant to issue of gender identity in Ireland, and should not be a limiting factor on people's gender identification.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

MynamesColm wrote: »

I agree with you to a point. Policies should be in place to keep all inmates as safe as possible. I certainly don't claim to be all knowledgeable about prison related matters and polices.



However, for the most part I see it as irrelevant to issue of gender identity in Ireland, and should not be a limiting factor on people's gender identification.

It’s not irrelevant. We have male prisoners in the female estate in Ireland. One is a sex offender, the other has been violent towards women. It’s the reason for the incarceration, in fact. That article was an UK article, so from a country where they have sensibly put the kibosh on self-ID overriding the same sex exemptions of the Equality Act.

People should be free to identify however they wish. In that way, I’m FOR self-ID. However, what that self-ID means in terms of rights is complicated. And I see reason for hope with some recent events, that in this part of the world anyway, those complicated issue are finally getting an airing and reaching the general public.

MynamesColm wrote: »

You write that as if they are interacting with their fellow inmates, but according to the indo they are kept apart from the other inmates in the prisons at all times.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/prison-officers-demand-guidelines-on-transgender-inmates-39637102.html

Personally, I think that’s a massively unfair and frankly scary position to put the female inmates in. Will the security always be as tight as it should be? All the time? And if that kind of separation is possible, why not do it in the male estate?

And that article shows that prison officers aren’t very comfortable with the situation either.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

There are 2 very violent male bodied sex offenders in female prison in Ireland. It is not a non issue.

They are kept separate from the other women prisoners. I wonder why nobody ever mentions this.....

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

They are kept separate from the other women prisoners. I wonder why nobody ever mentions this.....

Why should they not be kept separate from the men prisoners in the male estate? Why should the state collude to fulfil their gender identification wishes and at the expense of women?
What happens when there are less violent non-sex-abusing trans identifying males who can actually go amongst the women population?
These prisoners are kept separate precisely because they are such a violent imminent threat to women.

There needs to be a third space. It should not be encouraged that male-bodied prisoners can self identify into the female estate. 1 in 10 male travelers who are prisoners in the UK identify as women - this shows what huge potential for piss take and abuse there is in the system. At the moment they cannot have transfer as self ID is not available in the Uk but it is here.

It is an absurdity that a male bodied prisoner who has expressed specific desires to rape and murder women is imprisoned anywhere near them.

LLMMLL

Gruffalux wrote: »

Why should they not be kept separate from the men prisoners in the male estate?

Because they are women.

Why should the state collude to fulfil their gender identification wishes and at the expense of women?

It's not at the expense of women. They are kept separate.

What happens when there are less violent non-sex-abusing trans identifying males who can actually go amongst the women population?

Nothing

These prisoners are kept separate precisely because they are such a violent imminent threat to women.

Exactly. As they should be.

There needs to be a third space. It should not be encouraged that male-bodied prisoners can self identify into the female estate. 1 in 10 male travelers who are prisoners in the UK identify as women - this shows what huge potential for piss take and abuse there is in the system. At the moment they cannot have transfer as self ID is not available in the Uk but it is here.

So you're using a jurisdiction which doesn't have self Id to prove there would be negative consequences to having self Id in a country that actually does have self Id? Bizarre.