Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

Isolated

So let me get this straight.

You believe that the trans inmates are kept in isolation to such an extent that it is a breach of their human rights.

You also believe they have an unacceptable level of access to cis women inmates.

You also have no issue with cis men and cis women being kept in the same complex as long as they're different buildings.......

I'm lost.

ingalway

LLMMLL wrote: »

Where is race recorded at birth? What legal rights would be gained or lost by signing a form that declared your race? It would be quite bizarre for someone to legally change their race when there's no legal conception of race.

Why is race/ethnicity recorded on a Census? How would data be collected to record disparities in healthcare etc if no race/ethnicity recorded? How would you know how many black men had been shot by cops in the US if race/ethnicity were not know?

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

So let me get this straight.

No point trying to squirm or twist your way out of your own mess ,

Isolated ,

no cling film between men and women it's not pornhub

LLMMLL

ingalway wrote: »

Why is race/ethnicity recorded on a Census? How would data be collected to record disparities in healthcare etc if no race/ethnicity recorded? How would you know how many black men had been shot by cops in the US if race/ethnicity were not know?

I can write I'm black on a census. It doesn't affect my legal rights if I do or don't.

I get the argument you're trying to make but it makes no sense. Sex/gender and race are two completely different things. I don't just mean in the obvious sense but one has legal connotations that the other doesn't. A form to legally change your race makes zero sense when there is no LEGAL record or consequence to a recording race.

Gatling

Social constructs hey !

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

No point trying to squirm or twist your way out of your own mess ,

Isolated ,

no cling film between men and women it's not pornhub

Lol what mess?

All reports say the trans inmates are kept separate.

There is no information that says their human rights have been breached.

People on this thread claim thatEven keeping them separate is not enough but seem to have no issue when cis male and female are hosued in the same complex and kept separate.

It's not me that has to squirm out of a mess.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Bad things happen in women’s prisons every day? What were you doing about it before now?


Sexual abuse is 'part and parcel' of prison life, with staff harassing female inmates in exchange for drugs, cigarettes and even early release, according to former prisoners.


Female ex-inmates talk about prison abuse

I’d be amazed if anyone thought female prisons were completely safe.

The argument you make here is a commonplace one. “Women’s prisons aren’t completely safe now so let’s make them even less safe by introducing people with a strength advantage who are from a statistically more violent group (males)”.

Could anyone venture a coherent explanation for why an already not ideal environment should be disimproved further?

Gruffalux

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’d be amazed if anyone thought female prisons were completely safe.

The argument you make here is a commonplace one. “Women’s prisons aren’t completely safe now so let’s make them even less safe by introducing people with a strength advantage who are from a statistically more violent group (males)”.

Could anyone venture a coherent explanation for why an already not ideal environment should be disimproved further?

Hahah it's the crazy one isn't it. The roads are already dangerous - I see no need to have a low drink driving limit. :rolleyes:

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’d be amazed if anyone thought female prisons were completely safe.

The argument you make here is a commonplace one. “Women’s prisons aren’t completely safe now so let’s make them even less safe by introducing people with a strength advantage who are from a statistically more violent group (males)”.

Could anyone venture a coherent explanation for why an already not ideal environment should be disimproved further?

Because they haven't been disimproved except in the imagination of some people with an agenda.

But if you do have a problem with trans women and cis men being in the same complex as cis women but kept separately I look forward to your campaign against mountjoy and saughton etc.

ingalway

LLMMLL wrote: »

I can write I'm black on a census. It doesn't affect my legal rights if I do or don't.

I get the argument you're trying to make but it makes no sense. Sex/gender and race are two completely different things. I don't just mean in the obvious sense but one has legal connotations that the other doesn't. A form to legally change your race makes zero sense when there is no LEGAL record or consequence to a recording race.

There are only legal consequences to magically changing your sex now due to Self ID laws. Why could there not be legal consequences to declaring your race to be different to that 'assigned at birth'? Could we not live in a more equitable world if we could only be 'kinder' to everyone, including those who would like to change race? Surely the more white people who identified as BAME the better things would get for BAME people - a rising tide lifts all boats.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

But if you do have a problem with trans women and cis men being in the same complex as cis women but kept separately I look forward to your campaign against mountjoy and saughton etc.

It's rediculous simple .

In one area are male prisoners in there own complex behind big Walls and gates .
In another area of the same complex behind separate high walls and gates is the women's prison .
There not in the same buildings and don't mix either ,

Now take a violent male convicted of rape of women and they self identify as women they get sent to the womens prison where they have access to vaunersble women despite having convictions for sexual crimes against women .

There not kept behind big walls and gates in different complexes

Natterjack from Kerry

AMKC wrote: »

A Transgender person is a person born into the wrong body and assigned the wrong sex from birth.
They are not some social construct that someone can just decide either does or does not exist.

There is no such thing as being assigned the wrong birth, and the idea of transgender is really just playing along with a charade. Gender is fixed at birth and cannot be changed. The person is the body, and not something 'in' the body. The concept is preposterous.

We all know that a man is a man, no matter what view they have of themselves, and a woman is a woman no matter what surgery or drugs or whatever they take. Its like its extreme method acting, and I cant see how it comes from anything other than a psychological disorder.

Which is not to say that while the rest of us know the truth and that they are their original gender and not their 'transitioned' one, that we should not be civil, use whatever name and pronoun that they wish, and call them a man or a woman as they choose. Even though we know it not the case, there is no need to be hurtful and not play along if that is what makes someone most comfortable.

In most situations this works fine and there is no harm in it. But when it comes to stuff like sport or segregation in an army or prisons, then they cannot expect officialdom to go along with that kind of make believe. The fantasy meets reality, and the fantasy has to give way.

LLMMLL

ingalway wrote: »

There are only legal consequences to magically changing your sex now due to Self ID laws. Why could there not be legal consequences to declaring your race to be different to that 'assigned at birth'? Could we not live in a more equitable world if we could only be 'kinder' to everyone, including those who would like to change race? Surely the more white people who identified as BAME the better things would get for BAME people - a rising tide lifts all boats.

Yes there are legal.consequences to legally changing gender because there are legal consequences to being male or female in the first place. There are no legal consequences to being white or Asian so there is no basis for legally changing that.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

AMKC wrote: »

No it is not.

Transsexual is not the same as Transgender.

A Transgender person is a person born into the wrong body and assigned the wrong sex from birth.
They are not some social construct that someone can just decide either does or does not exist.

Sex is not changeable. You are saying that transgenderism and transsexualism are different and then conflating sex and gender. Gender can be changed, sex never can. Even after medical intervention, a person will need to attend health screenings of their birth sex for life.

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

It's rediculous simple .

In one area are male prisoners in there own complex behind big Walls and gates .
In another area of the same complex behind separate high walls and gates is the women's prison .
There not in the same buildings and don't mix either ,

Now take a violent male convicted of rape of women and they self identify as women they get sent to the womens prison where they have access to vaunersble women despite having convictions for sexual crimes against women .

There not kept behind big walls and gates in different complexes

Most of this post is completely made up. Women and Some men were actually housed in the same building until 1999. The reason they were moved to the dochas centre was for extra capacity. And I see nothing to indicate there are big walls and separate complexes barring them from each other. Mountjoy is tiny.

Can you please back up your points with references. There's so much misinformation being posted.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Most of this post is completely .

Lol

Your the one making stuff up no idea what your talking about .



Mountjoy Female Prison opened in 1858 and has been the largest female prison in the country ever since. In 1956 the female prison at Mountjoy was given over to young male offenders and became St. Patrick's Institution. The small numbers of women at the time were moved to a basement of one wing of St Patrick's Institution. Female prisoners were detained in the basement until 1990 when they were moved into one wing of St Patrick's Institution. The wing was used for female prisoners until 1999 when women moved into the Dóchas Centre. A campus style female prison within Mountjoy Prison, Dóchas was designed for twice the number of female prisoners that the old wing of St. Patrick's Institution could accommodate.[2

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

Lol

Your the one making stuff up no idea what your talking about .



Mountjoy Female Prison opened in 1858 and has been the largest female prison in the country ever since. In 1956 the female prison at Mountjoy was given over to young male offenders and became St. Patrick's Institution. The small numbers of women at the time were moved to a basement of one wing of St Patrick's Institution. Female prisoners were detained in the basement until 1990 when they were moved into one wing of St Patrick's Institution. The wing was used for female prisoners until 1999 when women moved into the Dóchas Centre. A campus style female prison within Mountjoy Prison, Dóchas was designed for twice the number of female prisoners that the old wing of St. Patrick's Institution could accommodate.[2

Everything I said is literally in that paragraph

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Everything

No sorry.

Big walls and gates between them(no cling wrap) - other than a short period a few were kept in a separate part of before they were moved out of st pat's in to Dóchas proper

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

No sorry.

Big walls and gates between them .

Where does it say that? Quote the line that says there are big walls and gates.

It also says they were housed in the same building until 1999 and were moved for capacity issues.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Where does it say that? Quote the line that says there are big walls and gates.

St. Patrick's Institution


Although situated within the Mountjoy Prison Complex, it was administered as a completely separate facility.

"Completely separate facility"

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

No sorry.

Big walls and gates between them(no cling wrap) - other than a short period a few were kept in a separate part of before they were moved out of st pat's in to Dóchas proper

A.short period? 1956 to 1999 is a short period......?

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

St. Patrick's Institution


Although situated within the Mountjoy Prison Complex, it was administered as a completely separate facility.

"Completely separate facility"

It contained both men and women. Are you saying it's fine to have men and women in the same prison building as long as they're administered as separate intitutions?

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

It contained both men and women.

Your litterally on a wind up .


It's fun watching someone chasing their tail

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

Your litterally on a wind up .


It's fun watching someone chasing their tail

St Patrick's institution is one building.

The paragraph you posted says both men and women were in St Patrick's institution between 1956 and 1999.

Therefore for a looooong period of time there was a building in an Irish prison that housed both men and women.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

St Patrick's institution is one building.

Dougal did you say your prayers and brush ,

Right so douglal get the light but Ted ,no dougal it nitey nitey sleepy tighty .

Ted why are there no nuns in our house .

It's bleeding obvious why ,we are men, they women

Right Ted ...

suicide_circus

Has it been clarified why the trans prisoners are kept separate from other inmates in the women's prison?

mohawk

suicide_circus wrote: »

Has it been clarified why the trans prisoners are kept separate from other inmates in the women's prison?

Technically if transwomen are women are are legally recognised as such then it’s discrimination to keep them separately from othe inmates in a women’s prison.

MynamesColm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Has it been clarified why the trans prisoners are kept separate from other inmates in the women's prison?

As Gruffalux said in previous post: I'm not your PA. Look it up yourself.





Are trans women in Women's prisons in Ireland? Yes.
Are cis women in women's prisons at greater risk because of this? No.

Do you have facts that prove that cis inmates in women's prisons in Ireland are less safe? No. (Otherwise it would have been posted).

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’d be amazed if anyone thought female prisons were completely safe.

The argument you make here is a commonplace one. “Women’s prisons aren’t completely safe now so let’s make them even less safe by introducing people with a strength advantage who are from a statistically more violent group (males)”.

Could anyone venture a coherent explanation for why an already not ideal environment should be disimproved further?

That’s not my argument, that’s a conclusion you inferred from what I asked you. You didn’t answer my question, which is fair enough, I’m not going to press you on it.

I don’t agree with your simplistic characterisation either, it’s complete nonsense really, and again isn’t borne out by the facts. For what it’s worth, fundamentally I don’t think most women belong in prison, I don’t think most men belong in prison either, as not alone are the vast majority of inmates non-violent offenders, they’re more of a danger to themselves than to the general public. Prisons were never intended for women in the first place, but the rate of women being incarcerated is rising faster than men. The idea of prisons were meant to be rehabilitative with the intent of reintegrating an offender back into the community. That simply isn’t happening in prisons, especially among women, because they serve shorter sentences, but they have a higher reoffending rate than men, so programmes which are designed for men and used in women’s prisons aren’t very effective in terms of rehabilitation and reintegration.

The idea isn’t to make prison less safe for anyone, prison services have a duty to ensure just the opposite, and while they are obligated to accommodate inmates according to their legally recognised sex, they can and do make exceptions, in exceptional circumstances. The narrative that the tabloid media choose to portray to the public is a strong one, but it’s not borne out by reality, and in UK prisons it’s certainly not the case that transgender prisoners are generally accommodated in women’s prisons, not according to this report anyway which was republished in January of last year -


2.1 The numbers of transgender individuals held in the adult prison estate are low (approximately 1.6 transgender prisoners reported per 1,000 prisoners in custody). In a snapshot data collection held in April/May 2018 and published in November 2018, there were 139 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who had sat a Local Transgender Case Board.

Three annual data collection exercises in relation to those in custodial settings have taken place since 2016 and the results published in the HMPPS Annual Offender Equalities Report.

2.2 According to the data collection exercise conducted in March - May 2018:
• 44 of the 124 public and private prisons (35%) in England and Wales said that they had 1 or more transgender prisoners. 4
• There were 139 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who had sat a Local Transgender Case Board.
• Of these, 111 reported their legal gender5 as male, 23 reported their legal gender as female and 5 did not state their gender. When asked about the gender the prisoner identified as, 114 identified as female, 19 as male and 6 did not provide a response.

In terms of how they self-identified, 89 gave a response. 27 identified as gender-fluid, 10 as intersex, 4 as non-binary and the remaining 48 gave a ‘prefer not to say’ response.
• 10 of the 139 prisoners reported their ethnic group as Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic and 128 as White, with 1 unknown.
• There were 42 transgender prisoners in women’s prisons. When asked about the gender they identified as, 22 identified as female, 17 as male, and 3 did not provide a response.
• There were 97 transgender prisoners in men’s prisons. When asked about the gender they identified as, 92 identified as female, 2 as male and 3 did not provide a response.
• Based on this exercise, there were 1.6 transgender prisoners reported per 1,000 prisoners in custody.

2.3 The number of transgender people in the general population who seek legal recognition of the gender with which they identify appears to be low6. Where individuals have gained legal recognition, they must be treated in accordance with their legally recognised gender in every respect. Some may seek ongoing support following their transition, whilst others will not wish for their previous gender to be acknowledged. In all cases, any risks posed, whether to the individual or to others, need to be acknowledged and managed.

2.4 Emerging HMPPS equality data suggests that most transgender individuals in custody do not seek either:
• legal recognition of the gender with which they identify or
• to be located in a prison which does not match their legally recognised gender.


Policy name: The Care and Management of Individuals who are Transgender


At least in the UK, they have a policy, whereas here in Ireland, as was pointed out in the thread already, the Irish Prison Service doesn’t have a policy, but they do similar to the practice in the UK where inmates are assessed and on an individual basis and accommodated accordingly, with their welfare and safety as an equal consideration as the welfare and safety of other inmates.

Rather than even attempt to offer any kind of an explanation to your incoherent question, I’d sooner point out that the premise of your question is based upon a faulty or ill-thought out assumption, as if the intent of accommodating any individual, regardless of their sex, is to put other people at risk. It’s a loaded question posed in bad faith and I don’t see why you imagine anyone should have to entertain it when nobody has ever made the argument that they wish to see anyone put at risk to accommodate anyone else.

There are greater issues of reform of the Irish Prison Service and the incarceration and rehabilitation of convicted offenders than just where they are located in a system which was never designed to accommodate women in the first place, let alone people who are transgender, not least because of the fact that the numbers of women being incarcerated is increasing at a time when the prisons are already overcrowded (Limerick women’s prison is operating at 118% capacity, daily figures released here), so the idea of accommodating two transgender inmates in women’s prisons isn’t the problem, they’re most likely accommodated in women’s prisons as they’re more of a danger to themselves in the context of where they are accommodated, as opposed to what you’re doing which is to take one statistic (violence committed by males), and applying it in a completely different context (transgender inmates incarcerated in prison).

That kind of misrepresentation of statistics in order to mislead people only works to your advantage among people who are as wilfully ignorant as you’re pretending to be. It’s a useful tactic for perpetuating negative stereotypes among people who already have a whole shedload of negative stereotypes of people who are transgender (similar to the way in which negative stereotypes are perpetuated against any groups in society), but it has nothing to do with protecting women’s rights, and everything to do with trying to argue that people who are transgender should be denied rights and continue to be discriminated against. I’m no limp-wristed leftie liberal, never was and never will be, but that sort of identity politics isn’t acting in anyone’s best interests, in spite of the claims of it’s perpetuators. It reminds me of one feminists account of her experiences of women in prison -

I thought I knew about feminism – then I started work in a women’s prison

suicide_circus

mohawk wrote: »

Technically if transwomen are women are are legally recognised as such then it’s discrimination to keep them separately from othe inmates in a women’s prison.

Well exactly. Wonder how prison authorities are getting away with this outrage?