Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

MynamesColm wrote: »

As Gruffalux said in previous post: I'm not your PA. Look it up yourself.

Why would you respond with this when you weren’t directly asked the question?

MynamesColm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Why would you respond with this when you weren’t directly asked the question?

... because I was.



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116010506&postcount=2813


But it doesn't matter, that's something that the poster could try and check themselves.

Gatling

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Why would you respond with this when you weren’t directly asked the question?

Looking for a reaction ?

suicide_circus

MynamesColm wrote: »

... because I was.



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116010506&postcount=2813


But it doesn't matter, that's something that the poster could try and check themselves.

Short of calling the prison and demanding to know the reasons for the current arrangements, which I dont think they'll share, i'm not sure i can find out. What's clear to everyone but your good self, is that i was looking for opinions.

LLMMLL

mohawk wrote: »

Technically if transwomen are women are are legally recognised as such then it’s discrimination to keep them separately from othe inmates in a women’s prison.

Not really as these particular trans women have made specific threats against women. The fact that they are trans is incidental. If a cis woman behaved like Barbie Kardashian she should be kept separate too.

And the "third space" idea wouldn't work. Why would it be ok for trans people to be subjected to a violent disturbed person?

And if you put Barbie Kardashian in a male prison why should a male prisoner be subjected to her? This is a person who ripped off another persons eyelid. Would you be comfortable with a male in your life sharing a cell with her?

CtevenSrowder

MynamesColm wrote: »

As Gruffalux said in previous post: I'm not your PA. Look it up yourself.





Are trans women in Women's prisons in Ireland? Yes.
Are cis women in women's prisons at greater risk because of this? No.

Do you have facts that prove that cis inmates in women's prisons in Ireland are less safe? No. (Otherwise it would have been posted).

Yes they are at a greater risk.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

MynamesColm wrote: »

... because I was.



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116010506&postcount=2813


But it doesn't matter, that's something that the poster could try and check themselves.

The suicide circus post you quoted in asking does not quote you.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

mohawk wrote: »

Technically if transwomen are women are are legally recognised as such then it’s discrimination to keep them separately from othe inmates in a women’s prison.

Indeed. Unless those prisoners would also have been given extra guarding in the men’s prison? Would they have, if they were violent? I don’t know.

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The suicide circus post you quoted in asking does not quote you.

Why does this matter to you? If it's ok to huffily respond "I'm not your PA, look it up yourself" then why would it matter who said it or what they're responding to? As we're often told, people can respond to any post they like on a discussion board.

It's only really an issue if saying to someone "I'm not your PA look it up yourself" is considered a rude response in general......

MynamesColm

Gatling wrote: »

Looking for a reaction ?

Partially, but more to put emphasis on the rest of my post, which has not been contradicted with any kind of proof.

suicide_circus wrote: »

Short of calling the prison and demanding to know the reasons for the current arrangements, which I dont think they'll share, i'm not sure i can find out. What's clear to everyone but your good self, is that i was looking for opinions.

Wasn't clear to me. You asked "Why is that?" and you asked "Has it been clarified why the trans prisoners are kept separate from other inmates in the women's prison?"



You're asking "why?" You're not asking "why do you think that is?"

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The suicide circus post you quoted in asking does not quote you.

:rolleyes: The post I quoted referred to the question I was specifically asked, which I linked you to.



Anyway, I'm not gonna post again defending why I posted in reply to suicide circus.



My point was that there has been no proof, evidence, statistics presented that cis-gender inmates are at any greater risk due to the presence of trans-gender inmates.

MynamesColm

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Yes they are at a greater risk.

And is there any kind of proof of that?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

MynamesColm wrote: »

My point was that there has been no proof, evidence, statistics presented that cis-gender inmates are at any greater risk due to the presence of trans-gender inmates.

For what reason would transgender women NOT be classed as male for these purposes? At what point in their transition do they earn that exemption and what are the physiological and psychological processes behind it? IMO, the people who need to provide proof are the people who claim that some males are magically not male anymore.

And do you really need evidence that males are markedly stronger than females with few exceptions?

I would think that the fact that the transgender inmates require extra guarding is an acknowledgment that there are concerns for the safety of female inmates. Do we have to wait for something bad to happen here? Shouldn’t we adjudicate risk based on what we know about male criminality and strength and female criminality and strength? Why is it okay to experiment like this with some of the most vulnerable women in our society?

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

For what reason would transgender women NOT be classed as male for these purposes? At what point in their transition do they earn that exemption and what are the physiological and psychological processes behind it? IMO, the people who need to provide proof are the people who claim that some males are magically not male anymore.

And do you really need evidence that males are markedly stronger than females with few exceptions?

I would think that the fact that the transgender inmates require extra guarding is an acknowledgment that there are concerns for the safety of female inmates. Do we have to wait for something bad to happen here? Shouldn’t we adjudicate risk based on what we know about male criminality and strength and female criminality and strength? Why is it okay to experiment like this with some of the most vulnerable women in our society?

The fact that trans inmates require extra guarding is because the two specific inmates have made threats against women.

LLMMLL

MynamesColm wrote: »

And is there any kind of proof of that?

No some posters seem to believe the trans inmates have superpowers and will be able to transport through walls and security Gates and elude the guards to gain access to the cis women inmates.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

The fact that trans inmates require extra guarding is because the two specific inmates have made threats against women.

But wait it was claimed there's no threat

Now ......

And walls and gates .

Wait ......

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

But wait it was claimed there's no threat

Now ......

Because

They

Have

NO

Access

To

The

Other

Inmates

suicide_circus

LLMMLL wrote: »

The fact that trans inmates require extra guarding is because the two specific inmates have made threats against women.

I doubt male prisons who have made threats against against men would be housed sperately in prison.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because

There isolated ?

LLMMLL

suicide_circus wrote: »

I doubt male prisons who have made threats against against men would be housed sperately in prison.

Which is unfortunate. But the shoddy treatment of male prisoners doesn't impact that in this case the right action has been taken. The correct measures have been taken to deal with two dangerous individuals.

You should be encouraging similar steps to be taken in male prisons but of course the goal is to stigmatise trans people and not improve the safety of anybody in prison.

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I would think that the fact that the transgender inmates require extra guarding is an acknowledgment that there are concerns for the safety of female inmates. Do we have to wait for something bad to happen here? Shouldn’t we adjudicate risk based on what we know about male criminality and strength and female criminality and strength? Why is it okay to experiment like this with some of the most vulnerable women in our society?

Extra supervision isn’t based upon whether or not any inmate is transgender. It’s based upon an assessment of the risk both to themselves, and to the general population in the prison, and the risk presented to the individual by the general population in the prison. Nobody is hanging around waiting for anything bad to happen or any of the rest of that nonsense, and no, we shouldn’t base anything on any stereotypes (strangely you want to appeal to stereotypes when it suits your purposes rather than individual assessments) about “male criminality” or “female criminality”, notwithstanding the fact that strength would have very little to do with anything in any case, but rather violence is facilitated by opportunity rather than strength. And nobody is experimenting with anything or anyone, they’re making evidence based determinations -


• There were 42 transgender prisoners in women’s prisons. When asked about the gender they identified as, 22 identified as female, 17 as male, and 3 did not provide a response.

• There were 97 transgender prisoners in men’s prisons. When asked about the gender they identified as, 92 identified as female, 2 as male and 3 did not provide a response.

2.4 Emerging HMPPS equality data suggests that most transgender individuals in custody do not seek either:
• legal recognition of the gender with which they identify or
• to be located in a prison which does not match their legally recognised gender.

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

There isolated ?

They are kept separate from the other female inmates. They are not a threat.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

No some posters seem to believe the trans inmates have superpowers and will be able to transport through walls and security Gates and elude the guards to gain access to the cis women inmates.

LLMMLL wrote: »

They are kept separate from the other female inmates. They are not a threat.

There kept Separate why ...

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

There kept Separate why ...

Because they are dangerous individuals

suicide_circus

Gatling wrote: »

There kept Separate why ...

Perhaps they're kept separate for the same reason that males and females are generally jailed sperately.

Gatling

suicide_circus wrote: »

Perhaps they're kept separate for the same reason that males and females are generally jailed sperately.

Dangerous and a threat to women Prisoners ,
How many times can one turn themselves inside out and back again to avoid the fact

volchitsa

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because they are dangerous individuals

All of them? What a coincidence.

Not all women are similarly dangerous, are they?

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

Dangerous and a threat to women Prisoners ,
How many times can one turn themselves inside out and back again to avoid the fact

They would be a threat to other women prisoners if they were kept with them. Just as Ted Bundy would be.

But as they are kept separate they are not a threat.

Nor is Ted Bundy because he is dead......

Shocking that I have to explain this.

LLMMLL

volchitsa wrote: »

All of them? What a coincidence.

Not all women are similarly dangerous, are they?

Are you actually trying to argue that all trans women are like Barbie Kardashian.......jesus

Gruffalux

MynamesColm wrote: »

My point was that there has been no proof, evidence, statistics presented that cis-gender inmates are at any greater risk due to the presence of trans-gender inmates.

There have been rapes and sexual assaults in women's prison's committed by transwomen. You would know this if you googled. It has happened in various jurisdictions globally. It is increasing due to an increasing number of trans women being transferred to female prison.

Well, some say, rape is part of prison life. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ whatcha gonna do?

Which is akin to saying if someone died of a preventable illness, well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯preventable illness is a part of life. What's another one or two?

It is in other words a tacit acceptance of an acceptable level of collateral damage. That means acceptance of an injury inflicted upon someone who was not intended to be a victim of your action.

I am wondering if you have a specific figure for acceptable EXTRA rapes and sexual assaults in prison due to male-bodied people being imprisoned in the female estate from which the female inmates cannot escape?
A ball-park figure you are okay with..?

Please note that the percentage of transgender prisoners in the UK who are also sex offenders is quite high compared to the rest of the prison population - about 40% compared to 19% in male prisons for sex offenses.
https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/




The BBC attempted to disprove the FPFW assessment which really amounts to no more than ''we cannot say that because it would be rude or cause people to say nasty things''...

but even if the BBC are in any way correct, it still remains that over 40% of the number of trans people who present for ''case conferences '' in the UK prison system seeking transfer on the grounds of gender ID are sex abusers.

3% of the women in prison are sex abusers.

Note - prisoners with GRC are not counted in the numbers - these people have had to have a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, apply to the Gender Recognition Panel and have lived in their chosen sex for 2 years or more before they can get the cert - so they are not whimsically identifying to get a softer prison environment.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42221629



https://twitter.com/Mason134211f/status/1346131922116890626?s=20

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/12/female-prison-officers-raped-inmates-claiming-trans-rory-stewart/

https://www.diarioextra.com/Noticia/detalle/379119/transgenero-garrotea-reclusa-para-violarla

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/112432880/transgender-prisoner-investigated-for-sexual-assault-behind-bars

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/karen-white-transgender-prisoner-jailed-life-sexual-assault-rape-a8579146.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4400327/transgender-rapist-womens-prison/

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

They would be a threat to other women prisoners .


But as they are kept separate they are not a threat.

Wait ....