Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

volchitsa

LLMMLL wrote: »

Are you actually trying to argue that all trans women are like Barbie Kardashian.......jesus

No but it seems that you are. Why would all trans women be so dangerous to women that they have to be kept separate from them as a matter of course?
I mean, that's your explanation for why trans women are kept separate, after all.

Lots of women fight in prison, but they aren't all kept separate from each other before anything has happened.

LLMMLL

volchitsa wrote: »

No but it seems that you are. Why would all trans women be so dangerous to women that they have to be kept separate from them as a matter of course?
I mean, that's your explanation for why trans women are kept separate, after all.

Lots of women fight in prison, but they aren't all kept separate from each other before anything has happened.

No I am saying that the 2 trans women who have requested to be in women's prisons have been separately assessed and found to be dangerous. As they clearly are.

They have been assessed as INDIVIDUALS.

Maybe lots of women fight in prison, I don't know. Most probably haven't informed the authorities of their fanatsies of killing women though.....

LLMMLL

Gatling wrote: »

Wait ....

Wait what?

volchitsa

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I am saying that the 2 trans women who have requested to be in women's prisons have been separately assessed and found to be dangerous. As they clearly are.

They have been assessed as INDIVIDUALS.

Maybe lots of women fight in prison, I don't know. Most probably haven't informed the authorities of their fanatsies of killing women though.....

Well perhaps I misunderstood you then. Are you saying that trans women are normally put in women's prisons, in the same way as biological women are?

So do you mean that these individual assessments you mention, that led to these two exceptions to this rule, are carried out as standard for all women, or for trans women?

CtevenSrowder

MynamesColm wrote: »

And is there any kind of proof of that?

Yes, women have have been sexually assaulted by male inmates placed in prison with them. Karen White is one example.

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because they are dangerous individuals

So they are a threat then.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalux wrote: »

Please note that the percentage of transgender prisoners in the UK who are also sex offenders is quite high compared to the rest of the prison population - about 40% compared to 19% in male prisons for sex offenses.
https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

That’s the same crowd that tried to suggest the figure of an 84% rise in reports of child sexual abuse where the perpetrators are reported as female was misleading, that police are recording the figures incorrectly, even though the figure was for reports by the victims.

Ive read their report and it’s full of guesswork, and fairly shy on any actual data or evidence to support their claim of 40%, let alone is it enough to imply that transgender prisoners or “TIMs”, as they call them, present any increased risk to the welfare of female inmates in the context of prisons in the UK.

Gruffalux wrote: »

The BBC attempted to disprove the FPFW assessment which really amounts to no more than ''we cannot say that because it would be rude or cause people to say nasty things''...

but even if the BBC are in any way correct, it still remains that over 40% of the number of trans people who present for ''case conferences '' in the UK prison system seeking transfer on the grounds of gender ID are sex abusers.

The BBC didn’t attempt to disprove anything. They investigated the claim made by that organisation, and found there was insufficient evidence to support their claim -

Claim: The campaign group Fair Play for Women claimed 41% of transgender women in prison are convicted sex offenders.

Reality Check verdict: A government survey has counted 125 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, but the Ministry of Justice says these figures are not yet a reliable reflection of the true numbers. The MoJ says 60 of them have been convicted of one or more sexual offences but it didn't identify their gender. There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don't show up in this data.

They caution against reading too much into the data. Personally I’d take the report from an organisation which has a habit of attempting to mislead the public, with a pinch of salt.

Annasopra

volchitsa wrote: »

Well perhaps I misunderstood you then. Are you saying that trans women are normally put in women's prisons, in the same way as biological women are?

So do you mean that these individual assessments you mention, that led to these two exceptions to this rule, are carried out as standard for all women, or for trans women?

Yeah I think you completely misunderstood altogether. In these 2 cases only the prisoners were deemed a higher danger to other prisoners.

I believe where to put prisoners is done on a case by case basis as decided by the judge

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

Annasopra

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Yes, women have have been sexually assaulted by male inmates placed in prison with them. Karen White is one example.

How does 1 example prove your point?

volchitsa

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yeah I think you completely misunderstood altogether. In these 2 cases only the prisoners were deemed a higher danger to other prisoners.

So the poster's earlier claim that transgender women were kept separate from biological women was inaccurate then?

The usual case would be that a transgender woman would just go into the normal female prison then? How much evidence do you think is needed for a transgender woman to be kept separate? We know that a far larger number of them are sex offenders than the average for women. Possibly even than compared to male prisoners.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

How does 1 example prove your point?

How many examples do you need, Joey? What’s an unacceptable number of examples of male on female violence for you?

Oh and there IS way more examples. It’s not just one.

Annasopra

volchitsa wrote: »

So the poster's earlier claim that transgender women were kept separate from biological women was inaccurate then?

The usual case would be that a transgender woman would just go into the normal female prison then? How much evidence do you think is needed for a transgender woman to be kept separate? We know that a far larger number of them are sex offenders than the average for women. Possibly even than compared to male prisoners.

The poster did not make that claim. The poster was saying these two trans women are kept separate from cis women.

It is decided on a case by case by basis by judges where to put prisoners.

I have no idea what you are on about that "We know that a far larger number of them are sex offenders than the average for women." - have you some links about this?

Annasopra

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

How many examples do you need, Joey? What’s an unacceptable number of examples of male on female violence for you?

I was asking about proof of the statement made. 1 example doesnt prove anything.

One eyed Jack

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Yes, women have have been sexually assaulted by male inmates placed in prison with them. Karen White is one example.

The claim being made though is that female inmates in women’s prisons are at greater risk (I presume of sexual assault) by incarcerating male inmates who identify themselves as transgender in women’s prisons. In order to verify that claim, one would have to assess the current rates of sexual violence which female inmates are exposed to from other female inmates and staff. And then they would have to assess the current rates of sexual violence which female inmates are exposed to from male inmates who identify themselves as transgender. Two different measurements are required in order to measure whether or not there is any evidence of any increase in any risk to anyone.

I’m not the least bit surprised either btw about the lack of concern for females who identify themselves as transgender or do not identify themselves as female, among the male population in men’s prisons, where this kind of behaviour is perpetuated by the staff whose duty is to protect inmates from abuse -


The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) failed to prevent systemic breaches of inmates human rights when they were unlawfully strip searched at a privately-run jail.

The searches involved four inmates at HMP Peterborough in 2017, including one inmate who was menstruating.

Sodexo runs the prison and admitted it had breached MoJ privacy rules through its failure to properly train staff.

The MoJ should have had effective safeguards in place against privacy breaches, the High Court has ruled.

The inmates involved in the strip searches in July and September 2017 were three women and a transgender prisoner, who was transitioning from female to male.


HMP Peterborough inmates were illegally strip-searched

CtevenSrowder

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

How does 1 example prove your point?

There have been others that was just off the top of my head. Plenty of examples have been given throughout the thread.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The poster did not make that claim. The poster was saying these two trans women are kept separate from cis women.

It is decided on a case by case by basis by judges where to put prisoners.

I have no idea what you are on about that "We know that a far larger number of them are sex offenders than the average for women." - have you some links about this?

Well, this BBC article states that there were 125 proclaimed transgender inmates in the UK in 2018 and 60 of them were in for sexual offences. The article does acknowledge that not all transgender inmates may have been found via this survey so its accuracy is questioned. Personally, I would NOT think transgender women are overall any more violent than other males but I see no reason to think that they would be less violent than other males and I don’t see why female inmates should be put at added risk based on that assumption.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-42221629

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I was asking about proof of the statement made. 1 example doesnt prove anything.

There’s way more than 1 example. How many do you need?

Annasopra

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

There have been others that was just off the top of my head. Plenty of examples have been given throughout the thread.

The point is though you were asked for proof of your assertion and you pretty much offered nothing other than "oh but Karen White" - No sorry that doesnt prove your assertion. I find it fascinating how in many cases there is a big sudden concern for women prisoners rights and safety and an emotive story all about "male" prisoners being subject to abuse by prowler trans women. Its fascinating because the people hopping on this havent really highlighted the issues around violence against female prisoners before, where is all the concern for female prisoners assaulted by male staff? Theres a skewed focus obsessisvely honed in on the imaginary trans predator but really couldnt care less about women subjected to abuse by cis men.

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I believe where to put prisoners is done on a case by case basis as decided by the judge

No ,only a judge can send a person to prison on conviction , I don't think judges don't decide which prison they are sending someone after conviction, possible prison service makes the decision

Gatling

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The point is though you were asked for proof of your assertion and you pretty much offered nothing other than "oh but Karen White" - No sorry that doesnt prove your assertion. I find it fascinating how in many cases there is a big sudden concern for women prisoners rights and safety and an emotive story all about "male" prisoners being subject to abuse by prowler trans women.

So why would a gay men be so interested in and pushing for the idea of violent sex offenders who self identify as women's be sent to women's prisons exactly .
Women in prison tend to have suffered years of sex abuse from Child hood ,and stuffer with addictions due to past trauma ,they come from suffering domestic violence at the hands of men .

So why this being pushed as ah sure they will be grand your man said he's a woman now .
Nothing whatsoever to worry about !!!

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

So why would a gay men be so interested in and pushing for the idea of violent sex offenders who self identify as women's be sent to women's prisons exactly .

Nobody is arguing for that, gay men or otherwise.

(the fcuk does being gay or being a man have to do with anything?)

Gatling wrote: »

Women in prison tend to have suffered years of sex abuse from Child hood ,and stuffer with addictions due to past trauma ,they come from suffering domestic violence at the hands of men .

All true, and that’s also true for male inmates. However, women in women’s prisons are at much higher risk of sexual violence from other women and staff, than they are at any risk whatsoever from males who identify themselves as transgender. Staff have a duty to protect all inmates from abuse, regardless of their sex or gender identity.

Gatling wrote: »

So why this being pushed as ah sure they will be grand your man said he's a woman now .
Nothing whatsoever to worry about !!

Nobody is saying that.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The point is though you were asked for proof of your assertion and you pretty much offered nothing other than "oh but Karen White" - No sorry that doesnt prove your assertion. I find it fascinating how in many cases there is a big sudden concern for women prisoners rights and safety and an emotive story all about "male" prisoners being subject to abuse by prowler trans women.

Ahem.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, this BBC article states that there were 125 proclaimed transgender inmates in the UK in 2018 and 60 of them were in for sexual offences. The article does acknowledge that not all transgender inmates may have been found via this survey so its accuracy is questioned. Personally, I would NOT think transgender women are overall any more violent than other males but I see no reason to think that they would be less violent than other males and I don’t see why female inmates should be put at added risk based on that assumption.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-42221629

Also, tell me, Joey, what do you know about the people making objections here and their concerns for vulnerable women? Me personally, I desperately wanted abortion to be legalised. I took part in marches. I wanted the vulnerable women and girls most in need of it to be able to avail of it easily. I wanted good aftercare available. All of this whilst knowing that I would probably never need an abortion myself.

People “suddenly” care about this because it’s a relatively new issue. Why would people be concerned about a problem when it didn’t exist? And people know that prisons aren’t 100% safe but it makes no kind of sense to make them even less safe and people are right to point that out.

The issues faced by vulnerable women will always be of interest and concern to me.

Frankly, how DARE you suggest otherwise. Who do you think you are?

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

However, women in women’s prisons are at much higher risk of sexual violence from other women and staff, than they are at any risk whatsoever from males who identify themselves as transgender.

Not true at all .

How are women in a prison safe when they have to share that prison with one of more convicted violent rapists who self identify as women .

how are they not at risk exactly

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Ahem.

Prison Services aren’t making assumptions though, let alone making assumptions based upon negative stereotypes. They’re making decisions in individual cases based upon evidence.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

People “suddenly” care about this because it’s a relatively new issue. Why would people be concerned about a problem when it didn’t exist? And people know that prisons aren’t 100% safe but it makes no kind of sense to make them even less safe and people are right to point that out.

The issues faced by vulnerable women will always be of interest and concern to me.

The issues of women’s welfare in prisons is absolutely not a new issue. What’s new is the fake concern for women’s welfare in prison as a means to try and argue against transgender rights. Otherwise people wouldn’t give a shìte, they didn’t before, and they won’t in the future, but for the purposes of their campaign against transgender rights, women in prison are a useful cohort, even though campaigners know very little of the reality of life for women before, during or after incarceration.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Frankly, how DARE you suggest otherwise. Who do you think you are?

Can’t answer that one for Joey, but I know who I am, and I know I’m perfectly entitled to question claims which I know are utter nonsense.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The issues of women’s welfare in prisons is absolutely not a new issue. What’s new is the fake concern for women’s welfare in prison as a means to try and argue against

Fake concern Jesus wept .

Your argument is violent rapists and other violent offender's should be sent to a women's prison because they don't represent any risk if they self identify as women.

I think fake is being only applied by one side and not from women

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Not true at all .

How are women in a prison safe when they have to share that prison with one of more convicted violent rapists who self identify as women .

how are they not at risk exactly

It is true -

Among former state prisoners, the rate of inmate-on- inmate sexual victimization was at least three times higher for females (13.7%) than males (4.2%).

PREA Data Collection Activities, 2012

And the obvious answer to your question is that they’re probably not any safer than they weren’t before, not because of the sex of convicted violent rapists that now self identify as women, but because of the fact that they’re having to share a space with a violent rapist. Of course they’re at risk in that scenario, but they’re not at any greater risk than they weren’t before, given the fact that inmates are more likely to be abused by members of staff in prisons -

Incarcerated women are 30 times more likely to be raped than free women. Even though women account for less than 10 percent of inmates, their reports account for three quarters of assaults, and almost three-quarters of staff are men.

Sexual Violence in Women’s Prisons Reaches “Constitutional Proportions.” Will Lawmakers Step In?

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Fake concern Jesus wept .

Your argument is violent rapists and other violent offender's should be sent to a women's prison because they don't represent any risk if they self identify as women.

I think fake is being only applied by one side and not from women

That’s not my argument? I don’t have to argue it because I know that inmates are incarcerated based upon their legally recognised sex, and it’s that criteria which generally governs where and how they will be accommodated during their incarceration.

There are exceptions made in some cases under certain circumstances and conditions, but generally inmates are accommodated according to their legally recognised sex. What they’re actually incarcerated for is also taken into account during an assessment of their needs and the suitability of the facilities provided while equally taking into consideration the welfare of the other inmates already accommodated in prisons.

I also don’t argue it because I know these decisions aren’t influenced by public opinion, I know that the argument is something of a red herring which has no bearing whatsoever on the rights of people who are transgender, but rather it applies in the context of people who are incarcerated and recognition of people’s rights in those circumstances.

Do you honestly believe that anyone can’t see how transparent the argument of sudden concern for the welfare of people who are incarcerated is in terms of arguing that people who are transgender should continue to be discriminated against? One set of circumstances has no bearing on the other - they’re two completely separate and distinct contexts.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

but because of the fact that they’re having to share a space with a violent rapist. Of course they’re at risk in that scenario, but they’re not at any greater risk than they weren’t before,

Says it all really .

No surprises that your playing the ah sure they are more at risk than not if housed with a convicted violent rapist who self identifies as a woman .

I find it quite telling actually ,

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Says it all really .

No surprises that your playing the ah sure they are more at risk than not if housed with a convicted violent rapist who self identifies as a woman .

I find it quite telling actually ,

Yes, it’s the violent rapist part which makes the difference of increased risk, not the sex of the inmates in question. Of course their convictions are taken into consideration in accommodating all inmates as assessments are done on an individual basis, not as is being argued for here - based upon stereotypes and prejudices and statistics. Inmates would also be at greater risk if the violent rapist is a member of staff than if members of staff aren’t violent rapists.

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

- based upon stereotypes and prejudices and statistics.

Statistics that don't include violent self identifying women being sent to women's prisons,
But there is a number of reports where self identifying women raped and sexually assaulted female prisoners despite being convicted for violent sexual offences against women .

But there more at Risk of men in women's prison but wait ...

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Statistics that don't include violent self identifying women being sent to women's prisons,
But there is a number of reports where self identifying women raped and sexually assaulted female prisoners despite being convicted for violent sexual offences against women .

But there more at Risk of men in women's prison but wait ...

I can’t quite make out your point tbh, but it looks like you’re arguing that people should be discriminated against based upon the actions of other people. I’m absolutely certain that’s exactly the type of discrimination that equality legislation is expected to prevent.