Living Under Regulation

wrangler

wrangler wrote: »

I wouldn't even try to guess what you're at, people have to be innovative now to make it.
Have a nephew that tries to have new ideas too, he had one of hte first balers and wrappers in the country and cleaned up the first few years, It's a race to the bottom now it's so cutthroat, he moved on to other things and they too got competitive. I got leader funding for another nephew to set up, but his business is hard work and no one is going to take his business in a hurry.
Best of luck anyway with whatever you're at

Thanks I've a bit of learning and research to do yet but I'm confident there's income there to be had.

Big brother is watching you.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/schemes/farmer-misgivings-over-more-or-less-constant-surveillance-planned-under-next-cap-39847324.html

Paywalled but the gist is almost constant real time surveillance of farms even through heavy cloud cover during the next CAP by these two satellites. If the dept want more information they may text the farmer requiring good quality photos of the activity or area that they can't see from space.

Apparently the benefit of this is to cut the burden of controls and administrative costs as well as the level of "non compliance".

Say my name

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Big brother is watching you.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/schemes/farmer-misgivings-over-more-or-less-constant-surveillance-planned-under-next-cap-39847324.html

Paywalled but the gist is almost constant real time surveillance of farms even through heavy cloud cover during the next CAP by these two satellites. If the dept want more information they may text the farmer requiring good quality photos of the activity or area that they can't see from space.

Apparently the benefit of this is to cut the burden of controls and administrative costs as well as the level of "non compliance".

That's the european Sentinel earth monitoring satellites.
It used to be available to the public online but I think it's gone corporate and only available from companies now selling that info back to farmers.
Before you could clearly see the differences of fert spread on headlands, there was a carbon option to compare between fields, moisture, etc, etc. That infra red option was there to view 'through' clouds.

I'll sound like a right rogue of a farmer but this information has been available to the authorities since before 2018. It's just lucky that the depts are giving fair warning that they'll start using it next year when for the last three years it could have been used.

It would have been nice to have an office job or be born with a thousand acres. :pac:

Lime Tree Farm

Say my name wrote: »

That's the european Sentinel earth monitoring satellites.
It used to be available to the public online but I think it's gone corporate and only available from companies now selling that info back to farmers.
Before you could clearly see the differences of fert spread on headlands, there was a carbon option to compare between fields, moisture, etc, etc. That infra red option was there to view 'through' clouds.

I'll sound like a right rogue of a farmer but this information has been available to the authorities since before 2018. It's just lucky that the depts are giving fair warning that they'll start using it next year when for the last three years it could have been used.

It would have been nice to have an office job or be born with a thousand acres. :pac:

Nothing stopping them from a having a look back either, they probably will anyway.

Lime Tree Farm

The Department has been gradually rolling out the updated maps and counties Carlow, Dublin, Kildare, Laois, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo , Westmeath and Wicklow will go live in the system from 2021.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/new-bps-maps-to-be-extended-to-nine-more-counties-in-2021-588383

Say my name

Say my name wrote: »

That's the european Sentinel earth monitoring satellites.
It used to be available to the public online but I think it's gone corporate and only available from companies now selling that info back to farmers.
Before you could clearly see the differences of fert spread on headlands, there was a carbon option to compare between fields, moisture, etc, etc. That infra red option was there to view 'through' clouds.

I'll sound like a right rogue of a farmer but this information has been available to the authorities since before 2018. It's just lucky that the depts are giving fair warning that they'll start using it next year when for the last three years it could have been used.

It would have been nice to have an office job or be born with a thousand acres. :pac:

I was once told "...and you have no opinions." as part of some really good advice, but........

I believe it's well beyond the Pale. I've said it before, but I think there is now massive over reach due to farmers receiving "public money". We're constrained into a system where we have little choice in the matter, then get blamed for it and beaten up by it.

Say my name

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was once told "...and you have no opinions." as part of some really good advice, but........

I believe it's well beyond the Pale. I've said it before, but I think there is now massive over reach due to farmers receiving "public money". We're constrained into a system where we have little choice in the matter, then get blamed for it and beaten up by it.

The land is not your own anymore.

Johnny in foxrock now dictates what you do with that land. Social freedom, justice, license, overlords, whatever.

I'd agree. But it's the way it's gone and I doubt there's no going back.
Unfortunately it'll mean that those that can afford to comply will go on, those that can't may set or sell to those that can which will mean more consolidation at odds with what is preached about small family farms being cherished by those who shout loudest.
The whole thing is being steered to the English way of large company farms. Despite the soundbites.

I've yet to hear what plans those who campaigned to #stopthecap wanted brought in.
So I don't know if I agree or disagree with Mick Wallace et al.

Say my name

Say my name wrote: »

The land is not your own anymore.

Johnny in foxrock now dictates what you do with that land. Social freedom, justice, license, overlords, whatever.

I'd agree. But it's the way it's gone and I doubt there's no going back.
Unfortunately it'll mean that those that can afford to comply will go on, those that can't may set or sell to those that can which will mean more consolidation at odds with what is preached about small family farms being cherished by those who shout loudest.
The whole thing is being steered to the English way of large company farms. Despite the soundbites.

I've yet to hear what plans those who campaigned to #stopthecap wanted brought in.
So I don't know if I agree or disagree with Mick Wallace et al.

Who're ye tellin, if you really want to enjoy the perks of being a third class subject, own some peatland. We'll be tossed some magic beans and not let farm at all or be up before the courts.

On your point re CAP, I think the thinking has herd reduction also incorporating the number of farmers as you say.

I think there's a genuine mental health issue in a lot of this. Remember the yellow card system. None of these great "changes" seem to change things for the better for the dope on the ground.

ruwithme

Their using them satellites already. I'd say some staff,seniors too,could have a few pounds stopped in their wages for non compliance of their employment t &c,s if the satellite was focused on them.

Bloody awful that this sort of crap is being used for minor generally breaches.

GNWoodd

Say my name wrote: »

The land is not your own anymore.

Johnny in foxrock now dictates what you do with that land. Social freedom, justice, license, overlords, whatever.

I'd agree. But it's the way it's gone and I doubt there's no going back.
Unfortunately it'll mean that those that can afford to comply will go on, those that can't may set or sell to those that can which will mean more consolidation at odds with what is preached about small family farms being cherished by those who shout loudest.
The whole thing is being steered to the English way of large company farms. Despite the soundbites.

I've yet to hear what plans those who campaigned to #stopthecap wanted brought in.
So I don't know if I agree or disagree with Mick Wallace et al.

Has there ever been any discussion , even here in Ireland with regard to farmers being subsided as against true payment for food ?
Subsidies are compensation for the primary producer not receiving a true price for product .
Yet every year there are more and conditions attached
No union worth its salt would have allowed this to evolve

wrangler

ruwithme wrote: »

Their using them satellites already. I'd say some staff,seniors too,could have a few pounds stopped in their wages for non compliance of their employment t &c,s if the satellite was focused on them.

Bloody awful that this sort of crap is being used for minor generally breaches.

Satelites have been used for years, there was farmers in trouble over poor mapping ten years ago, some farmers with uncontrolled rushes, claiming in sites of new houses, and one even claiming on a lake, it was probably 2012 that northern Ireland farmers were fined a percentage across the board for overclaiming, the department here went after the individual errant farmers at the time.
Nothing to be feared if you're doing it right

wrangler

GNWoodd wrote: »

Has there ever been any discussion , even here in Ireland with regard to farmers being subsided as against true payment for food ?
Subsidies are compensation for the primary producer not receiving a true price for product .
Yet every year there are more and conditions attached
No union worth its salt would have allowed this to evolve

All farmers have to do is strike.... :rolleyes:
Market has to be allowed work
Supply 90% ...... demand 100% = utopia
Supply 100% ....demand 90% = chaos

GNWoodd

wrangler wrote: »

Satelites have been used for years, there was farmers in trouble over poor mapping ten years ago, some farmers with uncontrolled rushes, claiming in sites of new houses, and one even claiming on a lake, it was probably 2012 that northern Ireland farmers were fined a percentage across the board for overclaiming, the department here went after the individual errant farmers at the time.
Nothing to be feared if you're doing it right

Doing it right introduces a level of subjectivity .
What would be acceptable to most reasonable bosses may not be acceptable to a zealot
And there are zealots in every walk of life

wrangler

GNWoodd wrote: »

Doing it right introduces a level of subjectivity .
What would be acceptable to most reasonable bosses may not be acceptable to a zealot
And there are zealots in every walk of life

A lot of the problem is some farmers don't like authority, If they don't agree with the Ts and Cs they shouldn't apply for the scheme.

GNWoodd

wrangler wrote: »

A lot of the problem is some farmers don't like authority, If they don't agree with the Ts and Cs they shouldn't apply for the scheme.

If they don’t apply they don’t get the compensation for not being properly paid in the first place

ruwithme

Chance her on anyway lads & just hope wrangler isn't the inspector. (Sounds very straight & all)

wrangler

GNWoodd wrote: »

If they don’t apply they don’t get the compensation for not being properly paid in the first place

No one owes you a living, farmers will take advantage same as Goodman

K.G.

If didnt fill out your bps form would you be relatively free from all this stuff

wrangler

K.G. wrote: »

If didnt fill out your bps form would you be relatively free from all this stuff

Regulations will be there anyway, I never found them onerous and I always maxed out my subs while I was at it. I could never see what the problem was. We're well paid for abiding by regulations

wrangler

Jjameson wrote: »

My 81 year old father in law had his sfp held up over a track in a field where he drove a jeep to look at cattle during the summer. 300€ would scarcely cover the cost of the inspection?
Have you had a change of heart on our beloved civil service?

A compliant conscientious farmer needs a whip while food processing industry put horse meat (horses with zero paperwork and treated with pharmaceuticals) into a “beef pie” don’t have any such issue.

Are you too young to remember the beef tribunal?

None of those things would matter to me but your examples there are good reasons to be fed up our public service, surely their purpose is in the name ''servants of the public''........not happening is it.

There was a blitz on poor mapping years ago and while people like your father in law were innocently caught out, there was also blatant fraud so never think that goodman is the only one that stretches the rules, I had a roadway myself but I'd always under estimate the hectares so no penalty

K.G.

wrangler wrote: »

Regulations will be there anyway, I never found them onerous and I always maxed out my subs while I was at it. I could never see what the problem was. We're well paid for abiding by regulations

But in my view you would have to be convicted of causing pollution and the burden of proof would be quite high.rules like spreading dates ,stocking rates,less spreading,round feeders etc they d look like some ejits filling courts with that kind of stuff.after that youd only have the bord bia which isnt that onerous

MIKEKC

GNWoodd wrote: »

The sooner farmers get paid for what we produce and move away from subsidies the better .
Get paid for what we produce today
Nobody should have to comply with hundreds of pages of regulations and be at the mercy of any public servant
The farm organisations and politicians have a lot to answer for when every decision eroded our independence.

Regardless of subsidies we will always have to go by regulations

MIKEKC

wrangler wrote: »

Satelites have been used for years, there was farmers in trouble over poor mapping ten years ago, some farmers with uncontrolled rushes, claiming in sites of new houses, and one even claiming on a lake, it was probably 2012 that northern Ireland farmers were fined a percentage across the board for overclaiming, the department here went after the individual errant farmers at the time.
Nothing to be feared if you're doing it right

True ,nothing to be feared if you are doing it right. The problem is that a large number of farmers are not abiding by the rules . Then fear inspections. Very few inspections so farmers become complacent. Glas farmers with commonage are getting away without complying with commonage framework plan. A very important part of this scheme was to protect commonage , yet very few put up sheep. All still getting paid.

MIKEKC

wrangler wrote: »

A lot of the problem is some farmers don't like authority, If they don't agree with the Ts and Cs they shouldn't apply for the scheme.

Very good point Wrangler. When they see that they get paid while breaking the rules they will continue to take part in the schemes

K.G.

But my real point is we have become so institutionalized to cap we cant seem to think outside of it.ditching the payments especially for people with payments of say 10 k a year is becoming a real possibility for dairy farmers

jaymla627

K.G. wrote: »

But my real point is we have become so institutionalized to cap we cant seem to think outside of it.ditching the payments especially for people with payments of say 10 k a year is becoming a real possibility for dairy farmers

When you see how lightly the chap in cork got off for numerous slurry discharges into a river destroying the fish population in the process, if you just forgo the cap farm away responsible, I reckon you'll be left alone, if derogation isn't renewed for 2021 half the dairy farmers in the country will be doing the above anyway, retrospectively if a lad has availed of tams grants and then isn't compliant with cap rules going forward will the government recoup the money

wrangler

jaymla627 wrote: »

When you see how lightly the chap in cork got off for numerous slurry discharges into a river destroying the fish population in the process, if you just forgo the cap farm away responsible, I reckon you'll be left alone, if derogation isn't renewed for 2021 half the dairy farmers in the country will be doing the above anyway, retrospectively if a lad has availed of tams grants and then isn't compliant with cap rules going forward will the government recoup the money

Local council here would be always on to pollution, but they'd give farmers a few weeks to tidy up, it'd be an arrogant farmer that'd get his name in the paper over it