Redevelopment of R132

dvdman1

Reducing the car capacity to 1 lane is going to be a disaster, this will have knock on effects on the M1 and other adjoining roads.

Duckjob

dvdman1 wrote: »

Reducing the car capacity to 1 lane is going to be a disaster, this will have knock on effects on the M1 and other adjoining roads.

Short term pain for long term gain TBH.

Part of the point of these measures is to effect behavioral change in the choices people make in getting around and make it easier for people to make those changes.

Swords and other nearby population centres are projected to dramatically grow (in many cases double) their populations over the next couple of years.

Not reducing the levels of private car traffic is simply not an option giving we're chronically congested already and our roads will soon need to move double the numbers of people we have now.

dvdman1

Duckjob wrote: »

Short term pain for long term gain TBH.

Part of the point of these measures is to effect behavioral change in the choices people make in getting around and make it easier for people to make those changes.

Swords and other nearby population centres are projected to dramatically grow (in many cases double) their populations over the next couple of years.

Not reducing the levels of private car traffic is simply not an option giving we're chronically congested already and our roads will soon need to move double the numbers of people we have now.

I agree the layout looks a lot safer for pedestrians and cyclists....behaviour change hasnt worked anywhere in rainy damp Ireland. The city centre plan has moved traffic to other roads and has created gridlock daily.
How do families adapt to these behaviour changes? Have you tried using public transport with crying babies and strollers? Most buses pass you by at the pavilions if your stroller cant fold or be stowed as the spaces are full Always. Try doing all this with shopping even with 2 parents its tough

donvito99

dvdman1 wrote: »

I agree the layout looks a lot safer for pedestrians and cyclists....behaviour change hasnt worked anywhere in rainy damp Ireland.

Cycling is massively up in Dublin in recent times despite no real change in infrastructure and no change in the weather.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/number-of-daily-dublin-cyclists-doubles-to-more-than-95-000-1.3230465

If you don't build it, they will still cycle (because the traffic is so bad).

The city centre plan has moved traffic to other roads and has created gridlock daily.

It's been gridlock for as long as I can remember, changes are absolutely necessary e.g. College Green bus gate.

How do families adapt to these behaviour changes? Have you tried using public transport with crying babies and strollers?

No one is banning cars, it just might take you a bit longer. But not as long as if they cyclists were also in cars.

Most buses pass you by at the pavilions if your stroller cant fold or be stowed as the spaces are full Always.

Absolutely the case. More buses are required, and in order to make room for more buses, more space will need to be taken from general traffic.

Duckjob

dvdman1 wrote: »

I agree the layout looks a lot safer for pedestrians and cyclists....behaviour change hasnt worked anywhere in rainy damp Ireland. The city centre plan has moved traffic to other roads and has created gridlock daily.
How do families adapt to these behaviour changes? Have you tried using public transport with crying babies and strollers? Most buses pass you by at the pavilions if your stroller cant fold or be stowed as the spaces are full Always. Try doing all this with shopping even with 2 parents its tough

Thanks for your reply.

The part I've highlighted is a very common misinterpretation of comments about effecting behavioral change.

The point is not to get everybody cycling / walking / PT all the time, but to tip the balance of convenience/safety etc more in favour of these modes so that the people make better choices depending on the nature of their journey and so the overall number of journeys by car is reduced.

So, to use your example, if you're going to Pavillions with the whole family including small babies and strollers, then that sounds like a fair and justifiable reason for a car journey. (Plus objectively for that journey, a car makes an efficient use of roadspace for the function it is doing).

If you're just popping in there on your own to pick up a quick few things, then you probably should be thinking about how you could be performing that journey more efficiently rather than jumping into a car.

BTW the idea that Irelands weather is too wet for bikes etc is a myth. Amsterdam gets more wet days than Dublin as well as some savage winds, and yet people simply equip themselves accordingly go about their daily business on bikes all year around. Why ? Because the No.1 factor that puts people off riding bikes is not weather etc. it's knowing that they will have to brave an unfriendly and often hostile transport infrastructure and feeling they are risking their very lives simply to get from A to B.

And just to re-iterate my original point: Our roads are already at and beyond capacity, and our population centres are due to grow and and many cases double in the next couple of years. Maintaining our current levels of car usage is simply not sustainable.

A lot of the discussion when we talk about trying new measures focuses on the what-ifs of making changes. Peoples minds need to be more focused on the indisputable consequences of not changing our ways.

If the proposed changes go in we can evaluate over 6-12 months and see what is or isn't working and tweak. Otherwise, we just end up in an endless cycle of "IF we do this, it COULD mean this....", but we never find out anything for sure.

sdanseo

Submission deadline extended. There's also a Webinar tomorrow 7pm (see original consult.fingal.ie link above) but had to register by yesterday apparently.

Noticed today lots of VMS advertising Major Roadworks on the R106 from 11/01 to 30/04, almost four months of roadworks. Is that connected to this, wouldn't have thought so as they haven't made any decision yet (or at least shouldn't have!).

Public Consultation Submission Date Extended to Friday 18th of December 2020.

Written submissions must be received by 4.30pm Friday 18th December 2020 or online submissions by 11.59pm Friday 18th December 2020.

Pete_Cavan

sdanseo wrote: »

Noticed today lots of VMS advertising Major Roadworks on the R106 from 11/01 to 30/04, almost four months of roadworks. Is that connected to this, wouldn't have thought so as they haven't made any decision yet (or at least shouldn't have!).

Are you sure you have the dates right? I assume it is this;

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/temporary-road-closure-phase-1-malahide-roadswords-pipeline

sdanseo

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Are you sure you have the dates right? I assume it is this;

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/temporary-road-closure-phase-1-malahide-roadswords-pipeline

Dates for sure, but thanks, yes it looks like that must be it. Probably more phases to come directly after.

Sent FCC a mail asking clarity so should have that confirmed tomorrow.

dvdman1

Duckjob wrote: »

Thanks for your reply.

The part I've highlighted is a very common misinterpretation of comments about effecting behavioral change.

The point is not to get everybody cycling / walking / PT all the time, but to tip the balance of convenience/safety etc more in favour of these modes so that the people make better choices depending on the nature of their journey and so the overall number of journeys by car is reduced.

So, to use your example, if you're going to Pavillions with the whole family including small babies and strollers, then that sounds like a fair and justifiable reason for a car journey. (Plus objectively for that journey, a car makes an efficient use of roadspace for the function it is doing).

If you're just popping in there on your own to pick up a quick few things, then you probably should be thinking about how you could be performing that journey more efficiently rather than jumping into a car.

BTW the idea that Irelands weather is too wet for bikes etc is a myth. Amsterdam gets more wet days than Dublin as well as some savage winds, and yet people simply equip themselves accordingly go about their daily business on bikes all year around. Why ? Because the No.1 factor that puts people off riding bikes is not weather etc. it's knowing that they will have to brave an unfriendly and often hostile transport infrastructure and feeling they are risking their very lives simply to get from A to B.

And just to re-iterate my original point: Our roads are already at and beyond capacity, and our population centres are due to grow and and many cases double in the next couple of years. Maintaining our current levels of car usage is simply not sustainable.

A lot of the discussion when we talk about trying new measures focuses on the what-ifs of making changes. Peoples minds need to be more focused on the indisputable consequences of not changing our ways.

If the proposed changes go in we can evaluate over 6-12 months and see what is or isn't working and tweak. Otherwise, we just end up in an endless cycle of "IF we do this, it COULD mean this....", but we never find out anything for sure.

What i have an issue with is not the creation of all these other options which are brilliant and need to be encouraged and encouraged in a safe way....

BUT why is it always at the expense of existing car carrying capacity. Is the philosophy to crack the whip through creating traffic jams, people will eventually use the other modes...where has this previously worked in Ireland?

The boy racer isn't going to leave his golf gti sitting in his drive, he wont impress the gf with it sitting there.
What about the older grey driver enjoying the luxury of the new landrover leather, these creatures of habbit don't take well to shuffling human traffic on buses.
What about mary jr whos just passed her test and is eager to build her experience of driving for her career

My point here is.. people are complicated and multi facetted...to apply strict philosophy to infrastructure doesnt always work in the way we intend.

donvito99

dvdman1 wrote: »

What i have an issue with is not the creation of all these other options which are brilliant and need to be encouraged and encouraged in a safe way....

BUT why is it always at the expense of existing car carrying capacity. Is the philosophy to crack the whip through creating traffic jams, people will eventually use the other modes...where has this previously worked in Ireland?

The boy racer isn't going to leave his golf gti sitting in his drive, he wont impress the gf with it sitting there.
What about the older grey driver enjoying the luxury of the new landrover leather, these creatures of habbit don't take well to shuffling human traffic on buses.
What about mary jr whos just passed her test and is eager to build her experience of driving for her career

My point here is.. people are complicated and multi facetted...to apply strict philosophy to infrastructure doesnt always work in the way we intend.

You say this as though driving is being banned on this stretch altogether.

Drivers may have to sit in a traffic jam a little longer.

As traffic has gotten worse in Dublin City, the numbers not driving into the city has dramatically increased. If it takes longer to drive than it does by bus or some other means, then you're not going to drive.

I'm not sure that what's proposed here for the Swords Bypass is the best exhibition for cycle lanes (what journeys does it help?) but the city needs to give more space to cyclists and public transport at the expense of private cars in areas with congestion.

Wishbone Ash

dvdman1 wrote: »

.. Is the philosophy to crack the whip through creating traffic jams, people will eventually use the other modes...where has this previously worked in Ireland?...

When they began to install parking meters in popular Dublin city center streets (particularly in Dublin 2) in the 1950's lots of drivers had to reassess where they'd park for the day and avoid those streets. They continued to drive to work but parked further away in less congested areas - a behavioural change.

In the 1970's and 1980's, parking meters were extended to more and more streets and most of those that previously drove to work had to resort to public transport instead - a behavioural change.

Bus lanes were introduced from 1985 onwards reducing the capacity of roads for private cars to and from the city center. It became more attractive for many to use public transport instead as the buses now moved more efficiently - a behavioural change.

The cycle to work scheme was introduced about 10 years ago resulting in a huge rise in the numbers of those cycling to work - a behavioural change.

You have to bear in mind that, during all this time, car ownership was continuing to rise but, because of these initiatives, people were encouraged not to use their cars to travel to work in the city center. Nowadays, very few people would consider driving to work in the city center.

(There are many more examples in all aspects of society when actions instigate behavioural change. I am at a loss as to why you seem to think it has never happened before).

The Davestator

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

When they began to install parking meters in popular Dublin city center streets (particularly in Dublin 2) in the 1950's lots of drivers had to reassess where they'd park for the day and avoid those streets. They continued to drive to work but parked further away in less congested areas - a behavioural change.

In the 1970's and 1980's, parking meters were extended to more and more streets and most of those that previously drove to work had to resort to public transport instead - a behavioural change.

Bus lanes were introduced from 1985 onwards reducing the capacity of roads for private cars to and from the city center. It became more attractive for many to use public transport instead as the buses now moved more efficiently - a behavioural change.

The cycle to work scheme was introduced about 10 years ago resulting in a huge rise in the numbers of those cycling to work - a behavioural change.

You have to bear in mind that, during all this time, car ownership was continuing to rise but, because of these initiatives, people were encouraged not to use their cars to travel to work in the city center. Nowadays, very few people would consider driving to work in the city center.

(There are many more examples in all aspects of society when actions instigate behavioural change. I am at a loss as to why you seem to think it has never happened before).

Great post.

When I started a new job in city centre, I drove from Swords for the first 2 days and couldn't hack it.

Cycled for 2 years, and now do a mix of cycle and moped.

Dont understand how anyone could face that traffic after a days work.

Inquitus

The Davestator wrote: »

Great post.

When I started a new job in city centre, I drove from Swords for the first 2 days and couldn't hack it.

Cycled for 2 years, and now do a mix of cycle and moped.

Dont understand how anyone could face that traffic after a days work.

Aye I worked in town many years ago before I started cycling, Job was in Ballsbridge, living in Swords, I had to drive to Malahide or Donabate for the train or into town to work. The best option was the train from Donabate as it was direct to town and I would get a seat on the way home, but it still took the guts of 75 minutes, and it was sardines on the way in. The other issue with the train is its not that flexible if you have to work late.

In the end I bought a moped and was able to go door to door in around 25 minutes, a saving of almost 2 hours of my life per day! Granted you need eyes in the back of your head on a moped, but its something I had no issue with!

lucernarian

donvito99 wrote: »

You say this as though driving is being banned on this stretch altogether.

Drivers may have to sit in a traffic jam a little longer.

As traffic has gotten worse in Dublin City, the numbers not driving into the city has dramatically increased. If it takes longer to drive than it does by bus or some other means, then you're not going to drive.

I'm not sure that what's proposed here for the Swords Bypass is the best exhibition for cycle lanes (what journeys does it help?) but the city needs to give more space to cyclists and public transport at the expense of private cars in areas with congestion.

If it doesn't need to be at the expense of driving lanes (because of land available), I am struggling to see the merit of reducing road capacity on an existing route if the logic is to intentionally introduce congestion instead of a specific engineering or public interest need.

donvito99

lucernarian wrote: »

If it doesn't need to be at the expense of driving lanes (because of land available), I am struggling to see the merit of reducing road capacity on an existing route if the logic is to intentionally introduce congestion instead of a specific engineering or public interest need.

I don't disagree with you for this stretch of road, but the concept of 'road dieting' (eliminating parking, through routes, turning lanes) which makes driving less convenient is one of the few means of actually reducing congestion. There is merit to reducing general traffic lanes if you're interested in reducing traffic.

I'm not local but I don't see the point of cycle lanes on this route other than convenience to the council. Proper lanes along the Swords Rd to Malahide, or lanes from Airside up the Rathingle Rd, then River Valley Rd through Swords and out to Swords Manor before coming back via Glenallen Rd and Jugback Lane would actually be useful in my view.

Wishbone Ash

donvito99 wrote: »

.. I don't see the point of cycle lanes on this route other than convenience to the council. Proper lanes along the Swords Rd to Malahide, or lanes from Airside up the Rathingle Rd, then River Valley Rd through Swords and out to Swords Manor before coming back via Glenallen Rd and Jugback Lane would actually be useful in my view.

I'm afraid Swords isn't the centre of the universe! The vast majority of us cyclists have no particular interest in being in Swords but it is on a primary route and we are using the R132 to pass through on the way to/from work.

plodder

Yes, I think anyone coming from North of Swords town centre (including Glen Ellen in Swords) or anyone coming up the Malahide road cycling towards the airport or city centre would use these routes. It might even attract cyclists from Seabury or Waterside who were using the R107 before, if it is seen as safer than that road.

donvito99

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'm afraid Swords isn't the centre of the universe! The vast majority of us cyclists have no particular interest in being in Swords but it is on a primary route and we are using the R132 to pass through on the way to/from work.

But are you serving more cyclists/prospective cyclists under this proposal or are more journeys encouraged with lanes serving major trip generators in the wider area (schools, shopping centres, trunk bus stops, Swords village, etc.)?

lucernarian

donvito99 wrote: »

I don't disagree with you for this stretch of road, but the concept of 'road dieting' (eliminating parking, through routes, turning lanes) which makes driving less convenient is one of the few means of actually reducing congestion. There is merit to reducing general traffic lanes if you're interested in reducing traffic.

I'm not local but I don't see the point of cycle lanes on this route other than convenience to the council. Proper lanes along the Swords Rd to Malahide, or lanes from Airside up the Rathingle Rd, then River Valley Rd through Swords and out to Swords Manor before coming back via Glenallen Rd and Jugback Lane would actually be useful in my view.

Reducing road space doesn't reduce congestion in any respect. Converting car-dominated road space for other transport uses, yes that could work. And I don't think that we should aspire to having people move less, whether it's by bike, walking or car or trucks etc.

kravmaga

There is a over head pedestrian bridge beside the large roundabout close to the Pavillions.

The compensation award seems excessive considering she walked out on a very busy stretch of road and not use the bridge

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/part-time-model-settles-court-action-for-32m-after-being-struck-by-car-on-dual-carriageway-40052486.html

Dizzyblonde

That stretch of road has been in need of another bridge further up for a long time, people take their lives in their hands crossing from the bus stop and at the Travelodge every day.

I don't think the award was excessive given that a young girl suffered life changing injuries, particularly a brain injury because life will never be what it could have been for her.

Inquitus

kravmaga wrote: »

There is a over head pedestrian bridge beside the large roundabout close to the Pavillions.

The compensation award seems excessive considering she walked out on a very busy stretch of road and not use the bridge

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/part-time-model-settles-court-action-for-32m-after-being-struck-by-car-on-dual-carriageway-40052486.html

Well the car insurance had to pay out, so I am not that concerned, I thought the council had been found liable before I read the article. If the driver was speeding and failed to apply the breaks, which is disputed, then finding him 1/3 liable seems fair enough. If he were not speeding and had applied the breaks then I would expect the poor girl would have been 100% liable for her own misfortune.

PCros

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

That stretch of road has been in need of another bridge further up for a long time, people take their lives in their hands crossing from the bus stop and at the Travelodge every day.

But she crossed the road where the bridge is a couple of meters away down near Foxwood where the bus stop is.

It appears she crossed the south bound lane, over the island and got hit in the bus lane on the northbound side. Back when things were normal that roundabout was always backed up and cars would slip into the bus lane if they were turning left onto the R106 into the village. I'd take a guess she was crossing through stationary traffic when it happened.

But I do agree the Travelodge crossing is indeed another issue.

plodder

The bridge is way back on Drynam road. This redevelopment of the junction will make crossing from that stop a lot safer, though you could still get people tempted to take the same short cut.

The whole concept of contributory negligence is a bit of a joke though as 66% of 3.2 million is still 2 million - a very tidy sum. And we're all paying for it through our own insurance policies.

PCros

Out of curiosity how does one come to a sum of €3.2m?

When I saw the figure I thought wheelchair bound and fed with assistance or something...but it appears from that interview she has recovered very well which is fantastic.

dvdman1

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

(There are many more examples in all aspects of society when actions instigate behavioural change. I am at a loss as to why you seem to think it has never happened before).

Behaviour around our relationship with the car has not changed...if we look at dublin as a whole, places like liffey valley, blanchardstown, swords pavilion, car culture is alive and preferred by many. Most families now own 2 cars.... What these city and town measures really do is you push congestion into orbital routes such as the M50...yes it may now be now nice to have a coffee on henry st but the area and business is not seeing the benefit or footfall of dublins population increase.

Dizzyblonde

PCros wrote: »

Out of curiosity how does one come to a sum of €3.2m?

When I saw the figure I thought wheelchair bound and fed with assistance or something...but it appears from that interview she has recovered very well which is fantastic.

I'd imagine because there was a brain injury. They tend to be life changing, sometimes moreso than being wheelchair bound.

Pete_Cavan

dvdman1 wrote: »

Most families now own 2 cars....

Completely incorrect. See graph at bottom of last page;

https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/newsevents/documents/census2016summaryresultspart2/Chapter_8_Travel_patterns_and_car_ownership.pdf

The percentage of two car households in Dublin City and suburbs is little over 20%, about the same as no car households. Note that that is households which would include groups of adults in houseshares, so not all are families.

PCros

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The percentage of two car households in Dublin City and suburbs is little over 20%, about the same as no car households. Note that that is households which would include groups of adults in houseshares, so not all are families.

Whilst I can't disagree with the CSO and the results, it is over 5 years old so it will be interesting so see what percentages the next years census throws up.

If I look out my window down my road, I can see 20 houses and out of them 16 have two cars in the drive. Also thinking of all my family and friends aswell most do indeed have 2 cars.

The Davestator

PCros wrote: »

Whilst I can't disagree with the CSO and the results, it is over 5 years old so it will be interesting so see what percentages the next years census throws up.

If I look out my window down my road, I can see 20 houses and out of them 16 have two cars in the drive. Also thinking of all my family and friends aswell most do indeed have 2 cars.

I'd imagine the increase in working from home will see a lot of families re-think the need for 2 cars and all of the tax, insurance etc they can save.