Air Corps SAR

Manic Moran

[Mod]

Lads, this thread has been reported to request moderator intervention.

That said, I don't believe we are yet to the point where a moderator needs to take any action beyond an admonition to please stop trading insults over what seems to be a lot of what in a courtroom around here would be dismissed as hearsay (be it true or not).

Opinions are fine. This is a discussion board. Citing vague sources like "my mate says..." is also fine, we can evaluate what we think of those sources. Asking for sources is fine. As long as everyone knows how substantiated anything is and is polite about it.[/Mod]

tippilot

Clearly and despite having only 2 seats shy of the S92, the AW189 is capable significantly less time on station at extreme ranges to winch enough survivors on board to fill them.

It is inferior in most senses of the word and a retrograde step in capability. You only have to look out your window at the weather in the last few days.

The circle on the map depicting the coverage area where Irish SAR assets can lift a full load just got smaller. No amount of AW189/Bristow fanboy buttering it up says otherwise.

Where it wins is on the operators side of the column. Cheaper to operate and maintain. Probably a better long term security of parts although it shouldn't be an issue during the lifetime of the contract. Also a bigger pool of hireable rated pilots and engineers going forward.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657733#Comment_121657733

HMCG have a rule of thumb of 50nm less rescue radius for equivalent on task time for the AW189 over the S-92, and was one of the reasons the S-92 is being kept at majority (all?) of Scottish bases.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657845#Comment_121657845

Prestwick is an AW189 base anyway.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661952#Comment_121661952

It is, at the arse of of Scotland...

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661952#Comment_121661952

Inverness too, I had 5 bases in Scotland in my head (Aberdeen for obvious reasons, but, mixed it up with the MRCC) but, its only 4, 2x S92 and 2xA189.... with both S-92 bases having 2 ops helos (so 4) and 189's, Inverness with 2, but Prestwick with 1 (3 total).

Jesus, you'd think someone who worked for CHC/Bristow would know this off hand :-D

roadmaster

I see the Residents around weston have made there submissions to SDCC for Bristows SAR Base . A lot seam to think it should be moved to casement. I can see this been granted and the appeals to ABP

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121703156#Comment_121703156

LOL, I got R116 tonight at UHG.

S92 you absolute beauty.

davetherave

https://planning.agileapplications.ie/southdublin/application-details/65272

Might have already been posted, but if anyone wants to have a gander at the plans for the hanger in Weston, and the observations.

Larbre34

I do feel myself that Weston is a slightly odd choice. Perfectly suitable, but odd in terms of its current sleepy situation and light operations.

I wonder why the current CHC leased hangar at Dublin Airport isn't going to continue with the new contractor? Are the DAA looking to regain control over that part of the airfield?

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706418#Comment_121706418

I'm going to guess (but I think it was mentioned in this thread already) that with takeoff and landing operations now happening from both runways, that the unscheduled nature SAR flights is impinging on the ability of the control tower to grant permission for the heli to cross the necessary flight paths. Also if you look at the flight-path taken by the heli on return to base, based on my perception it's often having to join the landing sequence out over the Irish Sea, and a direct landing procedure isn't being made available to them.

I'd guess that many of these limitations would be lifted at Weston as it's mainly local air-traffic and the effect of a heli performing operations is going to be less critical or consequential than at an international airport. So effectively Weston suits Bristow just fine as it keeps primary function simpler to manage. Thoughts?

Larbre34

Yes, that makes absolute sense vis-a-vis parallel runway operations.

The objections from the Weston residents do seem to be proportionate and not given to hysterics, but I don't think they have too much to be concerned about.

The last full year of KPIs available show each Helicopter station operated about 180 callouts, so one day in every two, plus whatever training operations took place.

I can't find a stat for the percentage of those taskings that took place at night, but being generous at 20%, that means Weston residents *MAY* only be disturbed one night in every ten, and thats probably way less in reality.

I think the station will get permission and operate without any great impact on the neighbourhood, especially if their departure bearing is SW away from the built up areas around.

In fact I know a few people involved in volunteer community first response in Lucan and Leixlip and they're delighted to have the investment and the expertise coming to their area.

10-10-20

Plus the new heli will be a lighter unit so therefore probably quieter too. The S92 does make quite the chump-chump din.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121707295#Comment_121707295

Probably quieter in comparison, but, still going to be quite the introduction to the Weston residents, 189's aren't sold on their quietness :-D

Edit:

EASA noise certs suggest the S-92 is roughly 4dB-4.5dB louder than the AW189 over the various phases of flight.

Full list of CAA approved Helo's and their noise certs: Approval of Part 21 rotorcraft | Civil Aviation Authority (caa.co.uk)

S-92 = Microsoft Word - TCDSN.IM.R.001 Issue1.doc (caa.co.uk)

Aw189 = 1016 (caa.co.uk)

EC135 = CAAdB Helicopters EC135_EC175.xlsx

On a cold winters night, the AW189 sounds LOUD!!

edit2:went on a tangent to see how the Alouette 3 compared, turns out the noise standards weren't applicable for it's certification at the time.... figures, could hear that thing from miles away before you even had a chance of seeing it :-D

jonnybigwallet

No big deal. People will get used to it.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709897#Comment_121709897

Noise certs have take off, overflight and approaching metrics.... what is usually found is you have the bulk of complaints from estates 2-3 miles away from the field... anyone near the field usually is at peace with any aircraft movements... it's the people a few miles away who throw up the "we never agreed to this", "I wasn't told it would be this loud", "it flew over my roof at 2 in the morning" type complaints...

If this is to be managed correctly, there will be various consulted and agree airfield entry/exit patterns, done with local consultation.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710577#Comment_121710577

Waterford seems to get a lot of approaches and touch & go's - or whatever the equivalent is for a heli. Is it used as a training base or what's going on with the higher level of activity?

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706733#Comment_121706733

R116 nearly always returns to Dublin via 16/34, same for R115 & R118 when they visit dublin on inter hospital transfers. I have never heard of them joining the traffic over Dublin bay unless its quiet. When 116 left UH Galway the other night they returned over Ashbourne/Dublin VOR landing on 16/34 as its closest to the hanger, their purpose built nearly new hanger.

roadmaster

Give it a day or so before a certain senator mentions why is AW189 good enoght for Bristow SAR and not Air Corps SAR

https://www.bristowgroup.com/news-media/press-releases/detail/549/bristow-takes-significant-step-towards-next-generation-of?

Larbre34

"Vertical Flight Solutions"

**** off.

davetherave

The Bristow press release has:

Bristow Group Inc. is the leading global provider of innovative and sustainable vertical flight solutions.

The posh term for rotary-wing, which is probably the posh term for helicopters.

Larbre34

Its a bullshit bingo term. I despise bullshit bingo.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710577#Comment_121710577

No you cant, they literally train every day,

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121736991#Comment_121736991

LOL.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121713416#Comment_121713416

No, they all do the same at each base, 115 nearly always returns to Shannon via ROSRO, & they always ask can they do an ILS, same up in Sligo, you can see this via their tracks on AIS/Marine Traffic. They do this daily & circuit bash alot too.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121736991#Comment_121736991

They have an array of SAR and Cargo drones in OPS or coming online, which have VTOL capability... they're not specifically a helo company anymore.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121742040#Comment_121742040

I do 😁

Iwastimthe

https://www.wlrfm.com/news/new-look-irish-coast-guard-aircraft-fleet-unveiled-347676

New livery for the AW189 and fixed wing aircraft revealed

roadmaster

SDCC have requested more Information on the Weston Base inculding operating hours.

This in theory could drag on after the contract starts but there is nothing stoping them using the existing hangar and dropping a few site offices to get them going.

davetherave

In fairness to the council, the requests for additional info do seem reasonable.

1. Permitted Usage The applicant is requested to specify the existing operating hours for air traffic at Weston Airport. It is noted the proposed facility is likely to accommodate 550 to 580 flights per annum which equates to less than 2.7% of the total permitted annual movements. The applicant is requested to specify the proposed operating hours for air traffic relating to maintenance, repair and overhaul associated with the proposed development and indicate what proportion of the projected flights are associated with this element of the proposals. While noting the demand-led nature of providing an emergency service, the applicant is also requested to specify the proposed operating hours for air traffic associated the emergency service and indicate how air traffic associated with this element of the proposals is likely to be spread across a typical 24-hour period and a typical week. This information is requested to help assess the impact the increased usage level and having regard to concerns raised by third-parties.

1. Public Safety Zones The subject site is located within the Public Safety Zones of Weston Airport. It is not, however, clear whether the proposed development is located within the Inner and/or Outer Public Safety Zones of Weston Airport. The applicant is requested to clarify this and compliance with Policy IE14: Public Safety Zones and its Objectives under the South Dublin County Development Plan 2022-2028.

1. Signage The applicant is requested to submit additional information in relation to the proposed signage at the site entrance, including dimensions and materials. The Planning Authority would consider that the provision of 2 no. site entrance signs could lead to visual clutter and the proposed signage should therefore be reviewed in this context. 

1. The proposed access to the site would be via the existing emergency airside access from the R403 Celbridge Road. This existing access from R403 Celbridge Road was permitted for supplementary accident and emergency access/egress use only under Reg. Ref. SD08A/0729 & ABP Ref. PL06S.233306. This was in the interests of the orderly development of Weston Airport and traffic safety. There is a 6-year road proposal objective along R403 Celbridge Road and 6-year road proposal objectives (under the South Dublin County Development Plan 2022-2028) joining this road in proximity to the access, including the new L2010 Cellbridge Link Road. The Roads Department and the Planning Authority would have concerns that the permanent use of this access could prejudice the future delivery of these roads objectives.

In fairness you can't go around turning what is an emergency access point into an active entrance/exit point.

1. . Car Parking The applicant is requested to submit details on the number of workers/staff and daily visitors to the development, along with a reduced car parking numbers based on active travel and public transport

This was given in the traffic plan in the original documentation. 18 office staff working 0900-1700, and 6 crew on a 24 hour 1300-1330. SDCC rules allowed them to have up to 28 parking spaces based on the 6 bedrooms, 1 car each, 1 parking space per 100sqm of Warehousing (1100sqm), and 1 parking space per 50sqm of office (550).

1. Surface water, foul water, drainage water, engineering reports: This seems like something that should have been provided in the required format to begin with

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776346#Comment_121776346

Sometimes when doing a planning app if there is a chance that there may be submissions that could cauuse you issues the consulatant will not put all the info in. That way the LA will show there hand in what information they want you can go back with a responce that covers all the questions.

In five years we might see air corps PC24s in the SAR colours

roadmaster

CHC are not giving up yet on the SAR Contract. There is an interesting aspect of the latest legal challenge they are bringing.

They are claiming issues on the shannon base and the wages versus the contract price. I hope eamon ryans minnions have done everything by the book or it could cost the state a lot of money.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/03/04/company-brings-new-challenge-over-800m-irish-coast-guard-rescue-service-contract/

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851541#Comment_121851541

I doubt they have, there were a lot of cracks in the process which assumed CHC would just bend over and release the contract.

Government were quite deriding about CHC losing to Bristow, FAFO I suppose.

roadmaster

In the Irish Times Article about the latest CHC court Case they state the following

CHC also claims the modifications mean Bristow is no longer required to operate the service from Shannon Airport as of October 31st next

Does that mean Bristow are looking at a possabile different base or are CHC just mudding the water?

roadmaster

Bristows Agent have lodged the responce to the FI for the Weston Base. A answer is due by the end of the month. I was suprised with some of the Noise responces as they referenced the UK alot such as HS2.

I know from previous planning apps i have been involved in that can be a fatal move as it can leave a door open to a challenge as you are not showing like for like in Ireland. I can see this heading for the High Court if it is granted.

roadmaster

Would UK SAR T&Cs be much different to what the new Irish Bristow Staff will be getting?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-68970435

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108196#Comment_122108196

You would think with worldwide shortage of people with that skillset that they would have top terms. Ah well thats Brexit You reap what you sow

vswr

This is an ongoing dispute rather than a Brexit issue (although, wouldn't surprise me if Bristow pulled the Brexit card).

Below inflation or no pay rise at all for years, part reasons given previously was due to Bristow's cashflow issues (which are non existent now)

Working time directive (EU) remains relatively intact in the new post Brexit regulations (UK pretty much did a copy and paste, with some amendments). I'd imagine most in Bristow wave the WTD in their employment contract, but, flight crew are subject to legislation by the CAA which supersedes the WTD and any wavers which limits work hours for safety reasons.

While there is a skills shortage, not everyone wants to (or can) up sticks and move to pastures better.

UK based pilots can do a few weeks on/off out of hubs for offshore work, UKCG pilots can live down the road from the base. One of the local pilots lived down the road from us and made a point of doing circles over his house anytime they were on training.

I could probably do about 6-8 months in the Gulf and come back debt free…. I'm not allowed though :-D

Psychlops

This is a farce.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/05/08/fears-weston-search-and-rescue-base-would-cause-farm-deaths/

roadmaster

Interestly SDCC have agreed with all the measures and projections that Bristows Agents have said about Noise and are happy to go with it. TII how ever are not happy with the roadlayout for the new base and are not backing down.

From a cost point of view its a wonder bristow didnt set up the overhaul base in shannon where there is plenty of room and no need to build new facilitys and then just use the existing weston facilites. They probably wouldnt even need planning then.

Larbre34

TII don't have a veto over the planning. They always like to to try to prevent any intensification of developments within a couple of kilometres of their precious national routes, but suggesting the SAR base constitutes a significant intensification of an existing private airport, would be a stretch

Psychlops

Nothing wrong with leaving it in Dublin, purpose built hangers already there literally brand new at the SAR apron, stupid to move for an international all weather airport that has all facilities needed to serve all weather SAR.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122118428#Comment_122118428

Dual runway ops though makes expedited transit a bit of a pain. Even cross wind runway ops is a pain to transit for anything around Howth. Weston is the better option IMO.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122120687#Comment_122120687

Fight Fight Fight

vswr

All that experience and they still struggled to meet contractual obligations to staff rotary and fixed ops on numerous occasions.

Best steer clear ;-)

roadmaster

DOD have stuck there oar in now as well.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I write with regard to the above planning application by Weston Aviation Academy Ltd.

for a proposed Search and Rescue (SAR) hangar on lands forming part of Weston

Airport,

Location: Lands forming part of Weston Airport, at Celbridge Road, Backweston,

Lucan, Co. Dublin, W23 XHF8.

Following consultations with our Air Corps colleagues at Casement Aerodrome,

The Department of Defence would like to make the following observation:

To request that a full aeronautical assessment by the applicant is provided to

ascertain potential impact on the Irish Air Corps operations. In particular, we

would request an assessment of the safety and operational effects of the

operation of a 24 hours civil aerodrome with priority emergency traffic in

respect of the activity of the Defence Forces at Casement Aerodrome.

Please contact me if you have any queries in this regard

Larbre34

Its easy to forget that the two airfields are less than 5km apart at their nearest points, as the crow flies.

But it is pretty surprising that it has taken until this deep into the p for these concerns to arise.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122141120#Comment_122141120

It's the addition of a 24hr SAR from an airfield already operating as a light aircraft airport, not a new terminal for Ryanair. Seems a bit over the top to me, but what would I know.

EchoIndia

If DUB, which does operate 24H, is able to handle the SAR operations despite almost constant line traffic, it's hard to see how it would have a serious impact on Baldonnel, all things considered.

roadmaster

The residents around Weston may also have another problem. The HSE fixed wing air ambulance which is currently been evaluated states that it must be ready 2 go 24/7 from a Dublin Airport so they may have a Business Jet taking off at 3am in the morning as well as an AW189