Air Corps SAR

AndrewJRenko

Load of Blarney on this thread

https://twitter.com/Conjwalsh/status/1476209125851906052?t=v4635dy-6bnjzGLLveEU-Q&s=19

danoriordan1402

Saw that happening out the back window - cracking pic from the fire brigade lads below : No chance getting a patient down the stairs here.

https://twitter.com/CorkCityFire

Larbre34

I'd have thought airframe issues were barely consequential next to the problem with Pilots. Not just now, but the pipeline of same into the future.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118386851#Comment_118386851

I'm sure then the replacement will be another balls up given past history...

Stovepipe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118385899#Comment_118385899

Civvies have operated SAR fixed wing aircraft for decades; have a look at the Swedish coasties as an example. Dropping dinghies or flares is not so difficult that a mere civvy can't do it.

roadmaster

If there is only going to be one helicopter for the east coast that will leave south of belfast to waterford to be covered by one machine. I know the north techncially is not our problem but there appears to be an SLA of somesorts in place to cover it. So it will be very interesting to see which base gets chopped.

If the fixed wing is wrote for the air corps could the two 235's be kept for that role or would an extra aircraft have to be got?

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118388239#Comment_118388239

NI is Covered by UK HM Coastguard from Wales & Scotland & IRCG from Sligo & Dublin.

roadmaster

CHC must be fairly happy they will secure the next contract going by the article below

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/news/sligo-airport-issues-concerning-upgrade-works-and-coast-guard-base-resolved-41114540.html

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118388176#Comment_118388176

Thats not possible without Department of Defence leading the effort.

The Air Corps are not endowed with the executive competences to unilaterally and independently make a submission like that.

It'd be like Dublin Fire Brigade answering a tender for the supply of firefighting services in some random location on the far side of the EU. They don't control either their own budget or their own executive management and policy decisions.

It's just not possible or legal.

Peregrine

There is a provision within the contract to terminate the fixed wing element after three years if an agreement is reached between DoT and the Air Corps to provide that element of the service. If not, DoT can apply 2-3 year extensions over the remaining seven years to the fixed wing element of the contract.

The number and location of bases is not set. I don't think the previous tender set the locations out either. It's for the tenderers to propose locations within the response and endurance times set out in the requirements.

There is a provision to extend the entire contract or just individual bases for up to three years after the initial ten years.

spark23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118388239#Comment_118388239

Would be enormously more efficient for everybody if third c295mpa purchased and sell c235mpa

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118404070#Comment_118404070

I think someone posted here before there is something like a 3 year wait time for a casa 295 mpa

Larbre34

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40782396.html

Well, the current GOC is certainly making sure this doesn't go away as an issue.

Can't imagine the CoS or the Department being thrilled with this intervention.

sparky42

Got to say that article is full of crap. 35 million for 2 new helicopters? You sure as **** aren’t suggesting anything in the S92 range, let alone the costs of standing up new bases, and we all know that providing Top Cover has been an issue and the 2 new 295s aren’t enough if you want 24/7 coverage along with all other duties, and that’s not even touching on impact to army support and training if SAR is prioritised.

roadmaster

I Guess the GOC of the Air Corps like the Naval boss wont be getting any promotions!

On the price issue they could buy 2 basic 139s for 20 million and have 15 million left over for SAR fit out

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455499#Comment_118455499

You're absolutely right. In actual fact, to stand up an Air Corps SAR operation that mirrors the service currently in place from CHC under the existing contract, would be a €100 million job.

The AW139 is not a match for the S-92 in kit or passenger capacity, both of which are requirements for the sort of offshore service our maritime SAR needs.

The Air Corps would in fact have to acquire 4 medium / heavy helis like the S-92, H225 or NH90 (perish the thought), not just 2 additional 139s.

roadmaster

I know the article says Cork or waterford but i think they have in the back of there head casement for 139s to cover the east coast. I believe the medical professionals made submissions for a smaller helicopter this time round so it could get in too the Mater as its the only trauma center on the east coast. ( ironacllly i think the tempoary heli pad in the mater now has sisk cabins on it!)

Larbre34

Only in Ireland would it occur to someone to reduce the size of the helicopter rather than increase the size of the effing pad...

Larbre34

Air Corpse indeed.

However, I think there may be a bit more to it than that. I wonder myself if Air Corps senior officers are looking at the writing on the wall, more than a few mentions in recent years of a Defence Force integration project which would leave the Navy and Air Corps under a unified command, akin to the US Coastguard structure and where they as the smaller and less powerful service would become the hind tit of a Navy dominated command. An air support service under an enhanced Flag Officer position, perhaps a Rear Admiral.

Existential threats make people do uncharacteristic things.

roadmaster

Pc12s and Helicopters to the Army

And

Casas to the navy and let the guards get private operator for there aircraft

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456904#Comment_118456904

Basically, yes.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458083#Comment_118458083

Would AGS ever consider packing there bags an offer some of the air corps pilots jobs in AGS to fly the helicopters and fixed wing

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456469#Comment_118456469

An IAC AW139 landed there a while back as a training flight to assess it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/emergency-helicopter-lands-at-mater-hospital-helipad-for-first-time-1.4054016

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458657#Comment_118458657

I get that it was a 'first time', but helmets and waiting for the blades to stop turning for a trauma patient so urgent that they need to be flown?

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118461913#Comment_118461913

The helmets are easily explainable, The Mater staff heard bits of 139's have a habit of coming detached from the helicopter 😁

roadmaster

I am not sure if i am reading the article correctly below but if i am it seams like the air corps will be back in SAR

https://verticalmag.com/news/irish-coast-guard-shopping-for-new-search-and-rescue-service/

sparky42

Looking at that article, how do you weigh the effectiveness of the S92 v the 139 as a SAR aircraft, they are two distinctly different animals. As for the Fixed Wing, unless both the current CASA's are kept it's hard to see how the AC could provide a 24/7 asset, and yeah that's not even touching manpower issues across the board for the AC to sustain such a commitment. I really don't see why the GoC is pushing this.

roadmaster

Not that i am in to conspiracy theorys but any chance a deal of some sorts has already being done between CHC, The Air Corps and the Government?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475478#Comment_118475478

Surely it would be with the DOD rather than with the AC if there was a "deal"?

spark23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118474957#Comment_118474957

Aw139 used all over the world for SAR

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476261#Comment_118476261

Is it in the same class as the 92?

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118474957#Comment_118474957

I wonder if the two 235s got another upgrade how long would they last?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475640#Comment_118475640

DOD, Air Corps, Government all the one, but things seam to be lining up for the air corps return to SAR even more so with only 3 Civilian SAR bases. There is no way in hell tjis government would have the balls to leave the country with less sar helicopters.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475478#Comment_118475478

Absolutely not.

Any other operator in the space would drag them all to the European Court for failure to conduct due process in procurement. And they'd win, adding millions to the overall cost.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476261#Comment_118476261

The type is totally and absolutely not up to the task of offshore SAR in the Irish area of operation. Please let's stop talking about it as a legitimate alternative to the S-92, it simply isn't.

I contacted Gerard Craughwell earlier this week to sound out his very public stance of returning the Air Corps to some tasks within the SAR structure.

He described that he wants the Air Corps to provide one of the bases, ie Baldonnell rather that EIDW and that he wants the Air Corps to be the top cover provider in all operations. He explained his aims are twofold; a) to maintain even a minimum service in the event of a dispute in the private sector provider and b) to provide value for money for the taxpayer.

I'm afraid I disagree with his logic on both fronts.

A) You can contract a provider of vital emergency services that they cannot engage in work stoppages or disputes. I also think such a thing is far less of a threat to services than a shortage of pilot officers and military crewmen in the Air Corps.

B) The biggest costs in these things are the fixed costs of getting a contractor into the territory. Once you get them to provide 3 bases, the sunk costs are dealt with and a fourth base is not going to cost the same as the first, if you see my point. On top of that you'd have the cost of underpinning a 24/7 operation at Baldonnell, not just new helicopter types, but ATC, fire and rescue on the airfield, catering etc etc.

So, overall both the service level and the taxpayer are worse off under his plan.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118477068#Comment_118477068

And if you seen him on Twitter you would know he is deaf to anybody that argues against him.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118477219#Comment_118477219

Yeah look twitter is one thing, we had a very decent and engaged conversation and I have no experience to rival his as a military officer, but as I told him, I do know a thing about project management and costs and I think he is making a mistake with his strategy here.

While I do accept his bona-fides that he wants to grab any potential investment into the Air Corps, into the wider DF really, I think the service outcome is what's important in all cases, not squeezing the square peg into the round hole rather than focusing on enhancing the Air Corps as a military air arm, ie air defence, military transport and logistics, Army and Naval Service interoperability, ACP, humanitarian ops at home and abroad, pilot and crew training etc.

In my view there is more than enough there to be going on with without looking for ancillary services that have no need to have a military structure such as SAR.

roadmaster

This whole SAR contract is starting to get some amount of media coverage

In the article south eastern TDs are worried the waterford base may get the chop

https://www.businesspost.ie/transport/tds-seek-to-block-new-search-and-rescue-contract-03fb8bc1

Larbre34

Why does one *have* to go? Who arbitrarily came up with that?

Has the Country got smaller and less populous since the last contract was signed? Have helicopters become faster and able to double their range?

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118484198#Comment_118484198

An political suicide for the waterford base to go. Remember last time they attepmted to close it. This whole SAR issue is going to have major political fallout

shillyshilly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476582#Comment_118476582

They don't have AW139's anymore... all replaced by AW189's due to their limitations

shillyshilly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485024#Comment_118485024

From what I have seen, yes, but can't technically confirm...

roadmaster

I see the British Times on sunday also had a piece about only 3 coastguard helicopters this time. If they do manage poltically to get away with it will it mean they will have to move the bases around the country to get a better coverage since they will be less one helicopter?

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118494179#Comment_118494179

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118494179#Comment_118494179

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/waterford-helicopter-base-could-be-cut-in-search-and-rescue-overhaul-3xfqfcfj8

sparky42

Since it maybe behind a paywall heres the full article:

[QUOTE]

A “minimum requirement” of three helicopters for a new search-and-rescue contract has prompted concerns that a helicopter base in Waterford will be cut as part of the new service.

In December the Department of Transport issued a tender for the renewal of aviation services for Irish Coast Guard. The contract will cost about €800 million.

At present the contract for the helicopter fleet and service is between the Department of Transport and CHC Ireland DAC, a civil helicopter operator. CHC operates a fleet of four Sikorsky S-92 helicopters from Shannon, Sligo, Dublin and Waterford. It is responsible for search-and-rescue (SAR) missions around Ireland.

The tender does not say where the “minimum” three helicopters should be based, with public representatives in Waterford expressing fear that its base will be cut under any new contract.

Matt Shanahan, an independent TD from Waterford, said: “My core concern is how a three-helicopter solution gives us the same service as the four-helicopter solution. If you are operating three helicopters as opposed to four it is impossible to have the same operating range as a four-base solution.”

He added: “Why fix something that is not broken?”

There was controversy in 2020 when the government declined to commit to allowing the Air Corps to participate in the forthcoming tender. Following political pressure, Simon Coveney, the defence minister, said he wanted to see the Air Corps included in any new service provision.

The new tender states: “Discussions are ongoing with the Irish Air Corps in relation to potential provision of the fixed-wing element of the services. As such, the services contract will provide that the fixed-wing element [airplane] will cease on the third anniversary of the commencement of the services contract in the event the Air Corps is in a position to provide the fixed-wing element.”

Cathal Berry, an independent TD who served in the Defence Forces, said there was no reason the Air Corps could not provide the service when the new contract began as it was due to get two new airplanes to be able to provide the appropriate services.

A motion on the tender will be debated in the Dail in the new term, with the regional TD seeking to have the tender paused while a review is conducted. It says that the Department of Transport has failed to state clearly its “strategic requirements” as part of the tender and warns that this may result in legal action.

David Cullinane, a Sinn Fein TD from Waterford, said he did not want to “talk up” the possibility of Waterford losing one of the bases. However, he has arranged a meeting for all southeast Oireachtas representatives today to discuss the tender document.

He said public representatives would focus on demonstrating the need for the base to remain in Waterford over the course of the tender process. Cullinane also said that Hildegarde Naughton, the junior transport minister, should appear before the transport committee to discuss the tender process.

A spokesman for the Department of Transport said the tender set out a “minimum requirement” of three helicopters, but “bidders can propose more”. He added: “The number of bases and their location are not specified, and proposals will be reviewed on their merits in relation to their ability to respond in a timely manner.”[/QUOTE]

Berry is still talking shite imo about the AC being able to provide the fixe wing with the new 295's, while their service rates will be much better than the 235's, it's still just two airframes with plenty of other taskings.

Larbre34

So really, the talk of cutting an SAR base is not even a thing.

These procurement documents are in line with thousands of others issued across Government, in that they have a baseline established by the Client.

This means the Department of Transport know it will take four bases / helicopters to fulfill the service, but they have set the minimum at three, to avoid stupid tenders being received from obscure operations around the World saying, "sure we can cover the Country with TWO choppers for you boss!"

I'm all too familiar with sitting on tender assessment panels for various services and seeing absolute time wasters submitting any auld shyte for very detailed and complex multi-annual contracts. So this document has been framed to weed that out early on and only attract serious operators.

I would make an educated guess, that given the existing contract and also any new analysis of the area of operations by a potential contractor, no tenderer will seek to carry out that service with any less than 4 units.

Not to mind the obvious issues of range and response time, which we are all aware of, but if some incident were to happen during the term of the Contract, and that incident was found to have been exacerbated by insufficient coverage, despite the Contractor having promised X level of response, then the legal exposure of that Contractor could be existential.

That's not to say Waterford would automatically remain. In fact, for my money, Cork is a far better option, Co-located with a higher classification airfield and superior navigation and handling facilities.

sparky42

More politics on the issue:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/feared-loss-of-rescue-117-prompts-south-east-tds-to-seek-urgent-meeting-with-minister-1244599.html

Given the numbers the Government has, I can see them wanting an upset on this.

Larbre34

A simple briefing note from the DoT would diffuse this.

The new contract will be well in place and operating before the next General Election.

roadmaster

You would have to wonder whats really going on here

roadmaster

Good man Eamon already interfearing in a tender. He says in the clip below he does not expect waterford to lose a SAR base. Is it not up to the companies to propose bases?

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2022/0119/1274538-waterford-airport/

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501554#Comment_118501554

As soon as it became a political football, of course he was going to stick his fingers in.