Discovery 3x06 - 'Scavengers' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

GreeBo

corkie wrote: »

^^^ Cross thread quote to make a point



Looks like this show can not get approval on either count. People moaning not enough development of characters, then when we do, get some complaints again. I think there has been subtle development of the most/main characters across the seasons. (Other than in the face of terminating characters)

I think the point is that they arent developing her, just having her in scenes doesnt automatically develop her, they have to tell us things about her that would make her real and interesting to the audience. I havent seen that happen yet, they just gave us a hollow Wesley character.

At this point there is no reason to care about her, they are almost relying on some faux-intrigue out of not building her to make us interested in the character.

Oh and if we are going to have to sit through multiple episodes of her talking to her imaginary friend its going to get very old.

GreeBo

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I quite liked the scene where Books ships strafes henchmen and can then 'turn around' without actually having to turn around. Just my suspicion, but I think the detached nacelles will allow Discovery perform similar maneuvers in future episodes.

I was watching that and could only think, surely it would have been much faster and much easier to, yunno, just turn around?

GreeBo

For me Saru is the only character that they have really made real.
Im interested in some of the others (Tilly, Stammets, Georgiou and Culbert) but they havent made them deep enough for me.

In an episode where the plot revolves around Discovery being ready to leap away at a moments notice it seems like, oh I dunno, a bad idea to completely reconfigure the ships spore drive on your own sitting on the floor with your imaginary friend?

Brian CivilEng

I enjoyed that one, enough nods to the past to remind us that we are in the Star Trek universe, but it's still it's own show.

Delighted to see a few writing tropes not come to pass. I was already getting annoyed at the writers for killing off the andorian, was pleasently surprised to have him survive. Also the demotion of Burnham, hopefully it sticks but it reminded me of the first time my wife watched an episode of Next Gen with me. It was the one with Wesley Crusher's nanites nearly destroying the ship, my non-Star Trek fan wife watched with me and when it was over asked if that was Wil Wheaton's last episode, as there was no way Wesley should be allowed remain on the ship after behaving like that. Oh how I laughed.

I liked the Stamet's "mentoring" of Adira bit, even if he sounded a little patronising at times. The "Gray" character I find a little creepy, I wish he would stop smiling! Wonder where there are going with that storyline.

All in all an enjoyable episode, not an all time classic but enough to keep me looking forward to next week. Now to watch The Mandalorian...

Goodshape

Maybe I watched this in the wrong mood or something? Thought it was awful from start to finish. Had to skip past some of the stuff with Michael and Book on the planet. Really felt and looked and sounded like a bad episode of Doctor Who to me.

Was great that Michael got demoted but even those scenes were difficult to watch. These professional starfleet officers just look like they'll collapse into themselves with the emotional weight of it all at any moment.

The ship refit might be interesting. Don't really know because we've not really seen any of it yet. Won't hold out much hope that we ever really will, outside of fleeting dutch-angled over-blown lens-flaired sneaky-peaks. And again I wish this crew weren't so outwardly awestruck and dazled by it all. "Do we need this?" "awe hell yea we do, lolz" - this isn't Lower Decks ffs.

Whatever's happening with Georgiou might be interesting. Was she seeing memories from Prime Georgiou or did I get that wrong? Thought maybe they want to meld these characters so as to to create a whole TV show with a Space Hitler protagonist.

Anyway, didn't like. Advanced the story for about 60 seconds (Michael demoted) but otherwise pure filler, and not enyable at all.

TheValeyard

fritzelly wrote: »

The core is in the ship not the nacelle

I'm aware of that, but who knows how things operate by the 31st century. Sure we've seen how the nacelle taking damage can wreck the ship, could be a safety thing or they just hasnt thought it through and thought it looked cool n future looking.

GreeBo

Goodshape wrote: »

Whatever's happening with Georgiou might be interesting. Was she seeing memories from Prime Georgiou or did I get that wrong? Thought maybe they want to meld these characters so as to to create a whole TV show with a Space Hitler protagonist.

I think we have to assume whatever is happening to her is tied to the Terran Universe moving further away and impacting *something* about her that we don't know yet.
Is the a hologram? Is she "breaking down" because the universe cant have two Georgiou's in the same space/time continuum or her ties to her own universe are now broken etc etc.

If this was StarWars I'd blame the midichlorians.

GreeBo

TheValeyard wrote: »

I'm aware of that, but who knows how things operate by the 31st century. Sure we've seen how the nacelle taking damage can wreck the ship, could be a safety thing or they just hasnt thought it through and thought it looked cool n future looking.

They said it was for better maneuverability though right?
(Which I dont understand in a space context!)

Baggly

Re: Maneauverability - unless they mean turning while at warp? Or if they are trying to scape through a gap at impulse, they can move the nacelles and tuck them in under the main body of the ship?

In fairness, nacelles do seem to get hit a fair bit. If you could detach and gettison them, it might be a good feature in certain circumstances.

I liked part of this episode - the retrofit happening was positive - some character development for Tilly, Stamets - The Admiral being admirally - Liked the scrap yard bits tbh.

Disliked how the issue of the insubordination was handled - disliked how they are handling Adira. Feels very Wesley 2.0. For the record i intensely disliked the Wesley character way back when.

GreeBo

Baggly wrote: »

Re: Maneauverability - unless they mean turning while at warp? Or if they are trying to scape through a gap at impulse, they can move the nacelles and tuck them in under the main body of the ship?

In fairness, nacelles do seem to get hit a fair bit. If you could detach and gettison them, it might be a good feature in certain circumstances.

But would your ship be any use without them? (and if it was, then why have them in the first place?!)
I also wouldnt like to be part of any engineering detail stationed in them, best to just pull on the red uniform and be done with it.

I liked part of this episode - the retrofit happening was positive - some character development for Tilly, Stamets - The Admiral being admirally - Liked the scrap yard bits tbh.

+1
Though StarTrek was never really about killing a whole bunch of people like that, it really stood out to me as not very ST.

Disliked how the issue of the insubordination was handled - disliked how they are handling Adira. Feels very Wesley 2.0. For the record i intensely disliked the Wesley character way back when.

Burnham was acting like a child, "but I wanna go and do my thing!"
There is no way that any StarFleet officer would act like that, certainly not a First Officer, and certainly not a supposed "Vulcan". It fits in with her narrative, but nothing else.

I didnt hate Wesley that much, but Adira and friend are too much, like who on earth would let a teenager who is on the ship a wet week roam freely around arguably the most important piece of tech in the universe and not only that, but take it apart and rebuilt it without anyone else being involved...during a crisis where that tech could be needed at any moment.

I mean come on!

TheValeyard

Wonder how advanced the Pakled are now!

Baggly

I would think maybe they could get by on one nacelle for a while if needs be. I dont know - i really should have studied warp mechanics more

My thinking is that you can fly a jet with 1 engine down, but its not recommended most of the time.

I mean i could forgive Burnham a bit given she was 'on her own' looking for Discovery for a year - so acclimatising to being part of a command structure again is gonna be tough - but it just feels like more of the same because we didnt really see any of that year & she has previous of doing her own thing.

Am i crazy in her name being BURNham and the big incident being called the BURN. Like it feels like a big neon arrow to me that they are intrinsically linked.

GreeBo

Baggly wrote: »

Am i crazy in her name being BURNham and the big incident being called the BURN. Like it feels like a big neon arrow to me that they are intrinsically linked.

Well it wouldnt be very subtle, so in all likelihood you are 100% correct.

TheValeyard

GreeBo wrote: »

Well it wouldnt be very subtle, so in all likelihood you are 100% correct.

We are all hoping it's just a coincidence. Please just be a coincidence. It's got to be a coincidence.

GreeBo

TheValeyard wrote: »

We are all hoping it's just a coincidence. Please just be a coincidence. It's got to be a coincidence.

I'm just amazed that her favourite food isnt bacon.

Baggly

If it does turn out to be true, its a better choice to go BURNham -> BURN, rather than, for example, calling it the MIKE.

AlmightyCushion

So, in 3 weeks, they take a thousand year old ship, upgrade it with brand new tech, completely redesign the interface and do it with minimal testing and user training. As a software developer that bit was giving me a nervous breakdown. In the real world, you can't change a field in an excel report without it breaking a dozen things.

EltonJohn69

Slydice wrote: »

Solid episode! Saru really feels like he's developing into a proper Starfleet Captain.
I thought the shipyard planet reminded me A_LOT of the start of the film The Running Man. Might have been intentional.
Some good character and relationships development as well.

I get really Hyped when they called out Self Sealing Stem Bolts! That was brilliant! Proper nod to DS9.

Yeap I was getting serious running man vibes too

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I'd be interested to hear other peoples opinion on how Admiral Vance dealt with Burnham & Saru at the end?

I personally felt he was rather even handed. Disobeying direct orders is not showing good judgement, so negative point there for Burnham. But Vance does make it a point to say that if asked he might have deemed the intel opportunity worth the risk. Is that just a hypothetical? or is that his way of saying that Burnham had better judgement on the value of the potential intel gain?

With Burnham traipsing off on another unsanctioned mission there was a reputational risk to Starfleet as the admiral pointed out. So once again another negative point for Burnham. But she didn't requisition (steal) a Starfleet ship á la Kirk in the movies. She didn't wear her uniform or put any other real Starfleet member in danger. So I think the reputational risk was low here.

On the plus side if that Andorian really led an uprising against the syndicate (or just the Andorian part of it? not sure!) then he must be known to Starfleet and as such known to Admiral Vance. So to have him is potentially a good catch for Starfleet? Maybe! Also keeping in mind that Starfleet seem to be low on resources/people/ships/everything - then I think he made the correct call not immediately throwing her in the brig. Whether you agree with the writers of the show or not, her character is written as being extremely capable. Probably a good asset to have - but on a short leash maybe?

But she's been shown to not be trustworthy, she does not care who she turns on. Immediately upon being dressed down she just HAD to have the last word, with the admiral.

She was not in the brig because she saved lives. That is not why she went on the "mission"

Saru should have taken it to the Admiral, indeed, but he had literally already been shot down by the admiral when asking to go on a mission.

GreeBo

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

So, in 3 weeks, they take a thousand year old ship, upgrade it with brand new tech, completely redesign the interface and do it with minimal testing and user training. As a software developer that bit was giving me a nervous breakdown. In the real world, you can't change a field in an excel report without it breaking a dozen things.

Yeah, all the little robo-droids in the world wouldnt give me the confidence to go out on a mission when you will be 100% on your own and you know no one can come and get you.

Especially turning your engines into little floating things...like what if they didnt come with you on your first jump?!

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

But she's been shown to not be trustworthy, she does not care who she turns on. Immediately upon being dressed down she just HAD to have the last word, with the admiral.

She was not in the brig because she saved lives. That is not why she went on the "mission"

Saru should have taken it to the Admiral, indeed, but he had literally already been shot down by the admiral when asking to go on a mission.

I also dont get why Burnham believes that without figuring out the burn Starfleet cant move on. It seems like a forced story arc, considering no one else in the galaxy seems to give a quantum fiddlers about it.

Its clearly just about her and her mother in Burnham world.

Baggly

Id have to disagree with you there. The Federation was essentially built on warp travel, made possible by dilithium. The whole galaxy seems to be going crazy about dilithium, as has been evidenced in a few episodes, including this one.

I think the potential for it to become even scarcer means that a lot of species wont fully trust the Federation and Starfleet. Hard to encourage peace amongst worlds while everyone is eyeing everyone else up for their dilithium.

In addition to that, SF cant have a fully warp capable fleet while there is the potential for Burn pt 2, and without a fleet you cant really keep the Federation united. I would agree that getting to the bottom of the burn is essential in stopping it from happening again and thus, getting the Federation back on its feet.

GreeBo

Baggly wrote: »

Id have to disagree with you there. The Federation was essentially built on warp travel, made possible by dilithium. The whole galaxy seems to be going crazy about dilithium, as has been evidenced in a few episodes, including this one.

But didnt Tillys Queen friend make a dilithium recrystalizer, why hasnt everyone broken that out?

I think the potential for it to become even scarcer means that a lot of species wont fully trust the Federation and Starfleet. Hard to encourage peace amongst worlds while everyone is eyeing everyone else up for their dilithium.

In addition to that, SF cant have a fully warp capable fleet while there is the potential for Burn pt 2, and without a fleet you cant really keep the Federation united. I would agree that getting to the bottom of the burn is essential in stopping it from happening again and thus, getting the Federation back on its feet.

But the federation now has access to spore technology, who gives a fiddlers about dilithium, focus on spore tech and suddenly the size of the galaxy becomes irrelevant.

(Its also has the bonus of not destroying the fabric of the galaxy like Voyager told us warp travel does)


I agree that it might be harder that it was before, but it will be no harder than everything else is for everyone else. If no one has warp travel then not having it isnt a disadvantage, afterwall even warp travel takes time, but that didnt stop the federation having planets that were days away at maximum warp.

Baggly

GreeBo wrote: »

But didnt Tillys Queen friend make a dilithium recrystalizer, why hasnt everyone broken that out?



But the federation now has access to spore technology, who gives a fiddlers about dilithium, focus on spore tech and suddenly the size of the galaxy becomes irrelevant.

(Its also has the bonus of not destroying the fabric of the galaxy like Voyager told us warp travel does)


I agree that it might be harder that it was before, but it will be no harder than everything else is for everyone else. If no one has warp travel then not having it isnt a disadvantage, afterwall even warp travel takes time, but that didnt stop the federation having planets that were days away at maximum warp.

Maybe they will move to spore drive, but having had some time with it (3 weeks ok ok), they havent jumped at the chance yet and are still referring to it as 'experimental'.

All tech seems to be based on dilithium, so its pretty important it doesnt start blowing up again. Even if they did move to spore you would be talking about retrofitting all ships, without an infrastructure in place, as things stand, to actually retrofit them.

It would make sense, but if it were easy they would have done it, i would suspect.

Sorry to nit pick, but it was TNG that told us that warp affects subspace - and Voyagers folding nacelles were supposed to allay this effect (so by year 3000 it shouldnt really be an issue i would think).

Its not the warp itself thats the issue though - its in fighting and uncertainty over a resource. Its been established that the Federation fell apart due to planets becoming isolated from each other - you cant solve that issue without a reliable way for a fleet to get around. There is a difference between it taking days to get somewhere at max warp and not being able to go there at all like.

Spear

GreeBo wrote: »

But didnt Tillys Queen friend make a dilithium recrystalizer, why hasnt everyone broken that out?

Book did make reference to one early on, so it seems they're not unknown or forgotten, just not common.

corkie

GreeBo wrote: »

But didnt Tillys Queen friend make a dilithium recrystalizer, why hasnt everyone broken that out?

"In or around 2257, Me Hani Ika Hali Ka Po, a member of the Xahean royal family, built an incubator to recrystallize dilithium. (ST: "Runaway") However, Starfleet did not have this ability until at least the 2280s. During a time travel mission from 2286 to 1986, Spock and Montgomery Scott developed a method of recrystallizing dilithium through exposure to high-energy photons from the toxic nuclear fission reactors of that era. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home) "
^^^ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Dilithium

Spear wrote: »

Book did make reference to one early on, so it seems they're not unknown or forgotten, just not common.

"In both the Short Treks episode “Runaway,” and the movie The Voyage Home, the idea of a “dilithium recrystallization” becomes tech that everyone relies upon quickly. In “That Hope Is You, Part 1” Book mentions that his “dilithium recrystalizer” doesn’t work anymore, which might imply that nobody else is able to pull that off either."
^^^ https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/star-trek-discovery-season-3-the-burn-explained/

CramCycle

Definitely a running man nod, whether they realise it or not.

Baggly wrote: »

I would think maybe they could get by on one nacelle for a while if needs be. I dont know - i really should have studied warp mechanics more

My memory is cloudy but I though they had to even numbers of nacelles, and it was one ot the criticisms of Riker's future ship in TNG having 3.

Am i crazy in her name being BURNham and the big incident being called the BURN. Like it feels like a big neon arrow to me that they are intrinsically linked.

I joked about this before but nothing would surprise me. Money on the triangulation leading to her mother or herself.

Also its really bugging me about her going on about the lullaby in the previous episode, it feels like a lazy red angel showing them the way to what they already know, hopefully its not expanded upon.

I thought Saru was good but as soon as Michael had to have that last word he should have just straight out thrown her in the brig. The Admiral was also weak to a point, he was right to leave it to Saru but he should have indicated that he wanted her punished, she wasn't trying to save all those people, her and Geoirgiu could have sparked another war the way the two of them went around blowing sh1t up at the end. Again any flaws in the episode were superseded by that one jarring seen, and again, its the writers (should have either had her shut up or be punished properly)/editors (edit out that weird drawn out whimpering thing that was happening in that scene). The conversation didn't flow like any scenario anyone could imagine.

alchemist33

corkie wrote: »

In last weeks episode, she only briefly appeared. So 3 episodes. Intro, Episode dedicated to her and brief development here. As a main character for this season, it is expected they would be development.

Use of 'she'/'her' instead of 'they' for 'Adira' as hasn't come out in show yet.

As the rest of the main cast have had there development time. So let us look at a sideline character of 'Joann Owosekun' in the show since S01E03 (excluding 2 episodes pilot).



'Owo' may not have had an episode (i remember) dedicated to her. But has featured subtly in lot of episodes, developing the story or other characters.



There is only so much you can squeeze into an hour, so I think they have a tricky balancing act of story versus character development.

The only other 1st episode character that may not have been developed is 'Keyla Detmer' but like 'Owo' she featured in others story. And seems to be getting some air time this season.

The only thing I can remember about Owo is that she said she was from Africa, I think, but there may have been more. Any subtle character development of her, Rhys (I remember the name because its Welsh) or the other guy on the bridge has been so subtle to be almost insignificant. I wouldn't want a full episode for each but there's a happy medium where they do get some development along the way. Good writers could integrate the development within the plot without it jarring.

That said, I have no issue with Adira if they want to focus on her. She's not Wesley-young enough to annoy me.

Overall, a decent episode if you forget about the Burnham stuff. Why wax lyrical about Star Fleet being home and then disregard its mores every chance you get?

And as a matter of interest, when I googled the actor playing Ryn, the Andorian, I discovered he's the real-life husband of Mary Wiseman who plays Tilly.

Banana Republic 1

Best of season so far cgi was good it made the episode frankly but again the dialogue was weak.

Thinks I didn’t like:
1 Saru they captain confiding in an ensign,Tilly, about how he intends to run the ship.
2 Saru the captain seeking the blessing of an ensign, Tilly, about his plan to blow the whistle on mikey Spock.
3 Adira, the ensign, I think that’s her rank, redesigning the spore drive thing without stamets knowledge.
4 when Mikey Spock said “I reversed engineered” the tracker yoke to find book, thatsnot what the term means.
5 Mikey Spock telling Saru that he is making the right decision to demote her, how magnanimous of her.
6 the constant use of the term number 1 its cringey.
7 Stametses speech to adira in the canteen made no sense after he said the word linear.
8 The tone Mikey Spock took with the admiral and Saru in the final scenes sounded like a bad guy whispering to someone they just shanked with a knife.

I do hope there won’t be a full on episode were adira has long conversations with her dead boyfriend because I fear it’ll be insufferable.

corkie

alchemist33 wrote: »

The only thing I can remember about Owo is that she said she was from Africa, I think, but there may have been more. Any subtle character development of her, Rhys (I remember the name because its Welsh) .....



And as a matter of interest, when I googled the actor playing Ryn, the Andorian, I discovered he's the real-life husband of Mary Wiseman who plays Tilly.

Ryn ~ Noah Averbach-Katz details of marriage on IMDb.
"He has been married to Mary Wiseman since February 16, 2019."


Lt. Gen Rhys
"In personal life, Rhys showed romantic interest towards Sylvia Tilly during a party on Discovery, but his advances were quickly rebuked as Tilly was currently in a "musician phase" and wasn't interested in men who didn't fit that profile."


Not much development with him, been in the show since 'Choose Your Pain (2017)' first season.

Downsize of having 13 hours season vs 25+ hours in TNG.

What we also don't see much of is 'relieve crew'/'night shift' for when the main characters or on away missions etc. But they came along for the timejump anyway