Discovery 3x06 - 'Scavengers' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

corkie

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Heres my theory -

Triangulation of the signals brings them to the source of the Burn which was (or is) Michaels mother. She still has a red angel suit, which Georgieu steals and uses to travel back in time, maybe stealing some technology for Section 31 use. Launches the new series with Section 31 having all the good kit.

Nice theory but....

Gabrielle Burnham's time crystal was destroyed by 'Leland/Control' in 2x11 (42:00) and the suit was pulled back into her timeline first and she was dragged unsuited after it. Her suit was also DNA locked to her. ..........

I was thinking maybe her suit had delayed blow up on the transit back, Causing the BURN?
but when 'Leland' hit there was a small contained explosion.

If Gabrielle survived traveling unsuited, she was probably pulled back into her timeline.

Banana Republic 1

pah wrote: »

How did Books cat know where to find federation hq?

It's a massive secret nobody knows and hidden behind some semi invisible forcefield. They had to hit the magic mushroom pool to dig the memory out if the trill so how would book or the cat know where to find them.


DONT KNOW

He reversed engineered her com badge.

~Rebel~

corkie wrote: »

Nice theory but....

Gabrielle Burnham's time crystal was destroyed by 'Leland/Control' in 2x11 (42:00) and the suit was pulled back into her timeline first and she was dragged unsuited after it. Her suit was also DNA locked to her. ..........

I was thinking maybe her suit had delayed blow up on the transit back, Causing the BURN?
but when 'Leland' hit there was a small contained explosion.

If Gabrielle survived traveling unsuited, she was probably pulled back into her timeline.

My theory is Mirror Burnham with her own timesuit/timecraft. They've already set up that the two timelines have been drifting further apart - so I'm guessing something that happened when Mirror Burnham crossed over triggered The Burn. Like, the frequency of dilithium from another timeline coming in caused a cascade (or some-such space-nonsense).

They're also setting up a specific location as the birthplace of The Burn... My hunch is it will be Terralysium, or someplace else intrinsically linked to the Burnhams.

pah wrote: »

How did Books cat know where to find federation hq?

It's a massive secret nobody knows and hidden behind some semi invisible forcefield. They had to hit the magic mushroom pool to dig the memory out if the trill so how would book or the cat know where to find them.


DONT KNOW

Yeah, they neglected to mention - I just sorta put it down to Burnham sending him coordinates when she got there.

pah

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Yeah, they neglected to mention - I just sorta put it down to Burnham sending him coordinates when she got there.

That sounds about right for Burnham :rolleyes:

CastorTroy

What are the odds of Tilly becoming the new Number 1 since she's the only other established character regularly on the bridge? I know it's unlikely but due to lack of any other character development, she's most qualified.

So Michael wants the 3 black boxes to triangulate the source of the Burn. Stargate taught me you need 6 points. Now I'm trying to figure out which is right. Or maybe I just shouldn't think about it

~Rebel~

CastorTroy wrote: »

What are the odds of Tilly becoming the new Number 1 since she's the only other established character regularly on the bridge? I know it's unlikely but due to lack of any other character development, she's most qualified.

They can't really choose narrative development over actual ship ranking for first officer decision-making surely though.

Baggly's shout of the Admirals security chief is a great one I think, since she's already been established pretty quickly, and was impressed with Discovery and the crew. Also makes sense to have someone in that position with more knowledge of the universe as it is now.

So Michael wants the 3 black boxes to triangulate the source of the Burn. Stargate taught me you need 6 points. Now I'm trying to figure out which is right. Or maybe I just shouldn't think about it

3 boxes in this instance gives you 6 points of information anyway - it gives you the position of each ship when it exploded, but since the theory is that the Burn didn't happen in one instant, it also gives you the 3 respective times from the point of origin. So if you take the location of each explosion, and then take their respective explosion times, you can judge whereabouts it happened. Whichever one happened first will have been closest to the Burn's origin, while whichever happened last was furthest away. You can tell the rate of explosions by the time difference between them, and roughly pinpoint the spot it happened from.

~Rebel~

~Rebel~ wrote: »

They can't really choose narrative development over actual ship ranking for first officer decision-making surely though.

Baggly's shout of the Admirals security chief is a great one I think, since she's already been established pretty quickly, and was impressed with Discovery and the crew. Also makes sense to have someone in that position with more knowledge of the universe as it is now.



3 boxes in this instance gives you 6 points of information anyway - it gives you the position of each ship when it exploded, but since the theory is that the Burn didn't happen in one instant, it also gives you the 3 respective times from the point of origin. So if you take the location of each explosion, and then take their respective explosion times, you can judge whereabouts it happened. Whichever one happened first will have been closest to the Burn's origin, while whichever happened last was furthest away. You can tell the rate of explosions by the time difference between them, and roughly pinpoint the spot it happened from.

They willalso have different Z access coordinates to help

corkie

~Rebel~ wrote: »

My theory is Mirror Burnham with her own timesuit/timecraft.

Mirror Burnham was presumed dead but "in the Star Trek: Discovery comic miniseries, Succession it was revealed that Burnham pretended to ally with Lorca, in order to stop his plans. However, she could not reveal her plans to Georgiou. Burnham then hid herself on Risa and waited for her moment to strike. She eventually took the mantle of Empress from Georgiou's cousin Alexander (β). However, Burnham was killed by Airiam (β) who then succeeded her as Empress"
^^^ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_Burnham_(mirror)
^^^ I known not on screen cannon. But if no Mikey Spock in the mirror universe maybe control won?

CastorTroy wrote: »

What are the odds of Tilly becoming the new Number 1 ......

So Michael wants the 3 black boxes to triangulate the source of the Burn. Stargate taught me you need 6 points. Now I'm trying to figure out which is right. Or maybe I just shouldn't think about it

I don't dislike 'Silly' but don't really want her as that role. Prefer the suggestion of having maybe 'Lt. Nilsson' or 'Lt. Audrey Willa' on suggestion of the admiral. Someone else suggested here?



Warning discussion of preview of next week in the below.

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

...... The scene for the next episode in this weeks Ready Room is based around the information from blackboxes, so I'm quite excited to see what they come out with. It seems (hopefully!) that we might get some answers sooner rather than later which drives the second half of the season.

^^^ I spoiler tagged that quote which should have been in the first place.

Based on that clip

3 points would only give a region of space not and exact location.

So you maybe correct needing more.

Here is the spoiler preview clip

(if no access to 'Ready Room')

: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to_Ee0IkoiQ

~Rebel~

corkie wrote: »

Mirror Burnham was presumed dead but "in the Star Trek: Discovery comic miniseries, Succession it was revealed that Burnham pretended to ally with Lorca, in order to stop his plans. However, she could not reveal her plans to Georgiou. Burnham then hid herself on Risa and waited for her moment to strike. She eventually took the mantle of Empress from Georgiou's cousin Alexander (β). However, Burnham was killed by Airiam (β) who then succeeded her as Empress"
^^^ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_Burnham_(mirror)
^^^ I known not on screen cannon. But if no Mikey Spock in the mirror universe maybe control won?
[/url]

I presume Control can't win over there, as it wouldn't tie in with all the later Mirror crossovers we see though, on DS9 etc? Though I guess Control doesn't get to destroy life if the whole Sphere data thing didn't happen over there? Honestly, huge plot points of last season have just slipped out of my brain!

The main thing pointing me to Mirror Burnham really is just the Georgiou stuff - her intense flashbacks that seem linked to Michael/Mirror Michael, and Mr Glasses talk of her being drawn to this one person, meaning Michael as a proxy for Mirror Michael. I'm wondering if it's the presence of 2 Michael's in the same universe that's triggering it. I'm also sorta guessing whatever solution they find in the end will result in Georgiou maybe doing a self-sacrifice to finally find closure on her Mirror Michael story, which ends up sending her back in time, and off to her S31 gig.

Glasses bringing up the Mirror Universe just feels like they're opening the door for that sort of storyline, and if they do that I can't see them not jumping on the Mirror Michael concept.

Picture this - the coordinates of the black boxes leads them to Terralysium. They go there, and seemingly find Michael's Mother there in the Red Angel suit. The helmet comes off - it's Mirror Michael, sneering. "I knew if I waited long enough you'd find me here". Aaaand, the destruction of millions of ships was just a 'come and get me' to Michael. It's on-brand!

Banana Republic 1

CastorTroy wrote: »

What are the odds of Tilly becoming the new Number 1 since she's the only other established character regularly on the bridge? I know it's unlikely but due to lack of any other character development, she's most qualified.

So Michael wants the 3 black boxes to triangulate the source of the Burn. Stargate taught me you need 6 points. Now I'm trying to figure out which is right. Or maybe I just shouldn't think about it

Do you know what would really change things up a little a bloke as 1st officer, a tough no nonsense fella.

CastorTroy

I don't really think Tilly will be first officer, but just based on the only other person with character development.
Of course maybe this will be a way to give of more of another character.

So we're nearly halfway through this season already

Grudge for number one.

corkie

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I presume Control can't win over there, as it wouldn't tie in with all the later Mirror crossovers we see though, on DS9 etc? Though I guess Control doesn't get to destroy life if the whole Sphere data thing didn't happen over there? Honestly, huge plot points of last season have just slipped out of my brain!

~Rebel~ wrote: »

My theory is Mirror Burnham with her own timesuit/timecraft. They've already set up that the two timelines have been drifting further apart - so I'm guessing something that happened when Mirror Burnham crossed over triggered The Burn. Like, the frequency of dilithium from another timeline coming in caused a cascade (or some-such space-nonsense).

Your suggestion that there would be a 'Mirror Red Angel' had me thinking they would also have a control problem over there. But with no terrain/earth based federation. Did the Empire have a S31? Maybe control never developed there? Leland didn't get 'Dr. Gabrielle Burnham' to create the suit etc.

Edit: -Answer: - Imperial Intelligence but terrains at war with Klingons, no access to time crystals.
^^^ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Terran_Empire


Mirror is bad term for the universe because we already know things progress differently there. 'First Contact' etc.

From 'Dr. Gabrielle Burnham' future travels there is a timeline where control did win.

breezy1985

CastorTroy wrote: »

What are the odds of Tilly becoming the new Number 1 since she's the only other established character regularly on the bridge? I know it's unlikely but due to lack of any other character development, she's most qualified.

So Michael wants the 3 black boxes to triangulate the source of the Burn. Stargate taught me you need 6 points. Now I'm trying to figure out which is right. Or maybe I just shouldn't think about it

Shes an ensign. Even this show wont F with Trek rules that much

breezy1985

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Well the boyfriend was sliced up with a piece of plexiglass so they had no choice.

I meant we have never seen 2 hosts who were so close which is why she is seeing a force ghost of the previous host.


Ezri was able to summon ghosts too using a ritual

ted1

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Heres my theory -

Triangulation of the signals brings them to the source of the Burn which was (or is) Michaels mother. She still has a red angel suit, which Georgieu steals and uses to travel back in time, maybe stealing some technology for Section 31 use. Launches the new series with Section 31 having all the good kit.

I’m thinking it’s a parallel universe they’ve entered. Might explain Georgious black outs

mikhail

CastorTroy wrote: »

What are the odds of Tilly becoming the new Number 1 since she's the only other established character regularly on the bridge? I know it's unlikely but due to lack of any other character development, she's most qualified.

So Michael wants the 3 black boxes to triangulate the source of the Burn. Stargate taught me you need 6 points. Now I'm trying to figure out which is right. Or maybe I just shouldn't think about it

Actually, that's an interesting technical point. Stargate said six because you need to know six numbers: the position (x,y,z) and the motion (in x,y,z) to characterise a point object in space. If you don't care about speed, you're down to three numbers to locate a point in space, but figuring out those three numbers takes more than three measurements.

Specifying a location is a bit different from solving an inverse problem like they're trying to do in Discovery. The former is like saying there was an earthquake today at 12:55 at a certain latitude and longitude. The latter is like saying, if a tidal wave hits your beach house at 1:00, and your mate's 1 km up the beach at 1:01, where did the wave start? Not easy, right?

You can find a point in 3D space based on its distance from four other points, but they don't have the distance, they have the relative delay. Without the speed of propagation, the problem is a bit more complex, and I think you need a fifth observation.

This is why you need some nerds in a scifi writers room. The Futurama guys would have gotten the number right.

~Rebel~

mikhail wrote: »

Actually, that's an interesting technical point. Stargate said six because you need to know six numbers: the position (x,y,z) and the motion (in x,y,z) to characterise a point object in space. If you don't care about speed, you're down to three numbers to locate a point in space, but figuring out those three numbers takes more than three measurements.

Specifying a location is a bit different from solving an inverse problem like they're trying to do in Discovery. The former is like saying there was an earthquake today at 12:55 at a certain latitude and longitude. The latter is like saying, if a tidal wave hits your beach house at 1:00, and your mate's 1 km up the beach at 1:01, where did the wave start? Not easy, right?

You can find a point in 3D space based on its distance from four other points, but they don't have the distance, they have the relative delay. Without the speed of propagation, the problem is a bit more complex, and I think you need a fifth observation.

This is why you need some nerds in a scifi writers room. The Futurama guys would have gotten the number right.

With 3 points in space, and 3 different times of the event, doesn’t the time difference between those points tell you the speed of propagation?

GreeBo

Baggly wrote: »

The admirals security chief maybe? A "suggested" posting from thr admiral.

Would make sense since they are also minus one security officer now right?

Deleted User wrote: »

Dont fully understand the obsession with this. Yes it would be good to get less Burnham, but the bridge crew in the TOS was barely known. Tell me about Checkov, his hopes and fears.

In fact we only know a fraction of all the crews because, in reality, they work in shifts.

TNg put most of its main characters on the bridge, but they had no reason to be there, most of them. The head of engineering should be in the Engineering department and the head of security in his own office or department watching the CC TV, and the Empath could have phoned it in from anywhere.

"Why is the Alien shouting?"
"I sense anger captain"
"Fair enough"

To be fair all other main characters had multiple entire episodes dedicated to them in most of the other series. How many times was Geordie the star, or Kim or Neelix or the doctor, Barclay, Troi, Ryker?:I could go on!

I'm not asking for in depth on every crew member (though it would be interesting to see how they all voted to jump into the future....)
But there are clearly main characters, by now they should have been the lead to help us care about them... Or even know their names!

It seems like because the star is not the Captain they are over compensating and it's damaging the plot and character development.
I can't be the only one who wanted to know more about cyborg woman and her race? Instead we get comic relief fish head man teleporting into every scene... It's just plain bad writing.

GreeBo

~Rebel~ wrote: »

With 3 points in space, and 3 different times of the event, doesn’t the time difference between those points tell you the speed of propagation?

All the ships that were destroyed were also under warp, presumably in 3 different z space directions, so that's another complexity to the equation.
They also have no idea if the burn is affected by gravity or radiation, etc, etc, they really don't have enough to figure out diddly squat, but I'm sure Burnham can reverse engineer it... Again.

flazio

You're forgetting about the neutron flow. I'm sure the new badges have a setting to reverse the polarity. Or maybe Staments has some sort of screwdriver to do that.

Rawr

There were some things that were ok in the episode...but alas I feel that my earlier fear that I may have to drop this show is now coming to pass.

I had tuned into this episode in the hope that I could see Saru interacting with the future Starfleet, and I was not disappointed there. We even get another alien Captain, which was cool. Upgrading Discovery was also a nice touch (I wonder if they gave the shuttle-bay a door? Seemed weird that it was missing). Michael's A-Plot in this episode wasn't all that bad, and this time it was the B-plot on the ship that was neglected. Doubling down on a pretty stupid and unfunny transporter joke didn't really help there.

On the plus-side, Saru is coming across more and more like a pretty good Trek captain. Also, Tilly really plays well off him. I wouldn't be surprised if they are angling to make her the new Number One....even if that does involve a 3-rank promotion for the newly trained Ensign. I think that might actually work (character-wise).

I do like that the COMM-Badge can do a lot more. What I don't like is the design of it. The new Starfleet Command uniform already looked a lot like the Bajoran Militia, and this non-descript oval design kind of adds to that. They really should have gone for a design where the chevron is more prominent. Wouldn't have minded rank-pips or a change of uniform for the Discovery people either. Continuing the current uniform seems odd. Now alas, onto what is going to probably crash me out of watching this show by next week. Michael disobeyed a direct order from both Saru and the Admiral. The plot knew she would do it, the script even has Saru warning her not to do it. But she does it anyway. She fecks off and does her own thing, because "f*ck Saru I guess, I always know what I am doing".

True to form in Star Trek, characters do this all of the time, but they'll only usually get away with it if the stakes are shown to be big enough to justify ignoring the Chain of Command. In this case, it really didn't feel *that* important. It was just another case of Michael knowing better than everyone else and the plot confirming that for her. The plot even has the Admiral giving her some praise for pissing all over her Captian. Saru punishing her was an excellent moment of Captaincy on his part. He calmly, and sternly explained how much of a jerk she was by fecking off when the ship needed to be on stand-by for missions, and then rightly explained how an untrustworthy person like her could not be his First Officer, and took that from her.

It was a great character moment there for a second....until they turned around and have Michael give Saru permission to demote her?!! That's where my hope for this show flat-lined. Discovery is so Michael-centric that even her demotion has to be seen as sanctioned by her. If the writers can't even manage introducing a reverser to this character without somehow twisting it like that they just did there, then there really is no hope for this show.

It is clear now. Michael will be the cause / solution to The Burn. Michael will be the one to discover this. Michael will probably regain her rank somehow and she will be another reason the Discovery crew will throw away their lives, for her, again. I wanted to watch a new improved "Star Trek: Discovery", not a repacked copy of "Star Trek: Michael" with *NEW* stickers hastily plastered on the edges of that package.

I'll tune in next week, but unless they really up their game (and I don't expect them to) than I think that'll be it for me and this show. And it's a damn shame, there was so much potential there....

CastorTroy

Michael going off like she did makes me think of those kids and cats that watch you as they push stuff off tables.

Just had a thought on the refit.

No way that Discovery can go back in time (okay, another reason).

EltonJohn69

What I like about the admiral is that he is not crying/on the verge of tears when ever their is some sort of conflict or a decision to be made.
But judging by the way the show is going he might have some sort emotional collapse in the future, maybe when he see/meets Books cat ?

They added the refits in, like 5 minutes, they will find a way to undo it in 3

breezy1985

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

What I like about the admiral is that he is not crying/on the verge of tears when ever their is some sort of conflict or a decision to be made.
But judging by the way the show is going he might have some sort emotional collapse in the future, maybe when he see/meets Books cat ?

Lt. Background girl will get 5 mins of screen time then die in an attempt to make us feel for some red shirt

CramCycle

~Rebel~ wrote: »

With 3 points in space, and 3 different times of the event, doesn’t the time difference between those points tell you the speed of propagation?

Its been awhile since I done theoretical physics and maths but I think that in space you'd need at least oe more point as without the speed of the event, it could be anywhere along an infinite loop as 3 points essentially create a 2d plane, and depending on the speed the point of origin could be anywhere along a specific (not straight) line, that starts in their plane and travels up or down. Now they could possibly calculate that (guessing here) and cross reference it with points of interest but 5 or 6 ships would save alot of f*cking around. Presumably the federation have a few black boxes as well and I can't see them having not noticed this before.

mikhail

~Rebel~ wrote: »

With 3 points in space, and 3 different times of the event, doesn’t the time difference between those points tell you the speed of propagation?

I thought about it a little again. I'm less confident of my answer, and still unwilling to crack open the old mathematics.

It tells you some information about it. Let's simplify the problem so I can illustrate it here.

Suppose we had a 1D space, and two ships. We can't tell the difference between these three situations:

(ship1)                (source)      (ship2)

(ship1)                                 (ship2)         (source)

(ship1)                                 (ship2)                         (source)

In the first one, the source is between the two, and reaches ship2 first because it's closer; it's moving quickly. In the second and third cases, it's moving more slowly. You get the same speed estimate, but it's still not clear where or when it actually happened. So you have narrowed the possible source locations down like this:

(ship1)                     x           (ship2)         xxxxxxxxxxxxxx...

In 2D, with three ships, you can't tell the difference between these two situations. The ratio of the lengths of the green lines is the same in both cases.

So for 2D, we already need 4 ships. When you go to 3D, those solution points will become curves, so you definitely need 4, and probably 5, unless you can narrow it down with extra information because the solutions pass through a planet or something.

Banana Republic 1

mikhail wrote: »

I thought about it a little again. I'm less confident of my answer, and still unwilling to crack open the old mathematics.

It tells you some information about it. Let's simplify the problem so I can illustrate it here.

Suppose we had a 1D space, and two ships. We can't tell the difference between these three situations:

(ship1)                (source)      (ship2)

(ship1)                                 (ship2)         (source)

(ship1)                                 (ship2)                         (source)

In the first one, the source is between the two, and reaches ship2 first because it's closer; it's moving quickly. In the second and third cases, it's moving more slowly. You get the same speed estimate, but it's still not clear where or when it actually happened. So you have narrowed the possible source locations down like this:

(ship1)                     x           (ship2)         xxxxxxxxxxxxxx...

In 2D, with three ships, you can't tell the difference between these two situations. The ratio of the lengths of the green lines is the same in both cases.

So for 2D, we already need 4 ships. When you go to 3D, those solution points will become curves, so you definitely need 4, and probably 5, unless you can narrow it down with extra information because the solutions pass through a planet or something.

Why go to the trouble of doing those drawings and theories.

I’m in my 30s I’ve watched Star Trek all my life this show is bullshiete and no amount of logic can fix it at this stage. I watch it because I’m a trek fan and I want to see it all go right but this is awful, they can’t even do woke right.