Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

weldoninhio

Thats me wrote: »

Thank you, i wrongly decided it is NPHET is being blamed for this.

NPHET is made up of HSE staff.

FintanMcluskey

bb1234567 wrote: »

If anything it looks like UK is missing deaths. Excess deaths in the UK in 2020 are 75,000. And the number of people who have died after testing positive for COVID in the UK over the last 9 months is, you guessed it, 75,000.

Seems like a pretty massive coincidence

75000 sounds an enormous figure but it’s about 10% above expected deaths.

Probably not that unusual

Ginger n Lemon

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

75000 sounds an enormous figure but it’s about 10% above expected deaths.

Probably not that unusual

Real question is of 75k excess deaths - how many are due to increases in suicides, cancer deaths etc?

You have children eating out of garbage bins in Burnley....

BryanMartin21

Boggles wrote: »

I seldom engage with "new members" as a personal rule, but you seem to struggling with cause and effect mixed in with a healthy dollop of false information.

It's never a good starting point.

Attacking the poster over the post.

I'll mark this as a victory.

BryanMartin21

VonLuck wrote: »

How is this argument still being thrown about?

The deaths are so low because of the restrictions! Everyone here seems to expect deaths to be high in order to justify the restrictions. Where's the logic in that?!

Sure what's the point in seatbelts either. Figures show that deaths decreased when they were introduced to cars, negating the need for them. :rolleyes:

The deaths are low because of restrictions? Show me the proof of that.

If you retort that I should show you how this isn't the case well, let me put to you the recorded positive cases together with a reasonable assumption that recorded positives are significantly lower than those that actually got infected with covid in 9 months.

70,005 recorded positive cases under the age of 85 in 9 months of covid in Ireland. 400 deaths with covid during that time.

The reasonable assumption is that actual infections are significantly higher. I think the WHO estimates ten times. Let's just take 7 times because I still think my point can be comfortably made.

Estimate of 490,000 cases in 9 months and 390 deaths. 0.08% of infections likely end up dead.

These are objectively pithy numbers. That's the end of the discussion on the harm of covid. What many posters seem to ignore is that covid is not the only show in town and they also don't seem to accept that social and economic restrictions for covid only do not make a lot of sense. Context is entirely missing from the covid hysteria.

Ginger n Lemon

BryanMartin21 wrote: »

The deaths are low because of restrictions? Show me the proof of that.

If you retort that I should show you how this isn't the case well, let me put to you the recorded positive cases together with a reasonable assumption that recorded positives are significantly lower than those that actually got infected with covid in 9 months.

70,005 recorded positive cases under the age of 85 in 9 months of covid in Ireland. 400 deaths with covid during that time.

The reasonable assumption is that actual infections are significantly higher. I think the WHO estimates ten times. Let's just take 7 times because I still think my point can be comfortably made.

Estimate of 490,000 cases in 9 months and 390 deaths. 0.08% of infections likely end up dead.

These are objectively pithy numbers. That's the end of the discussion on the harm of covid. What many posters seem to ignore is that covid is not the only show in town and they also don't seem to accept that social and economic restrictions for covid only do not make a lot of sense. Context is entirely missing from the covid hysteria.

You speak too much sense, stop.

2020 is very simple - cases go up, people are to blame.

cases go down - lockdowns are working.

Anything else are just facts, reasons and common sense that arent being widely used during these covid times.

Yes, before you ask, when we report less road deaths in 2020 people will say lockdowns should be used more regularly :rolleyes:

Boggles

BryanMartin21 wrote: »

Attacking the poster over the post.

I'll mark this as a victory.

I did no so such, everything in that post is factually correct.

Underlined by the fact that you have offered no relevant response.

Victory you say?

Boggles

BryanMartin21 wrote: »

The deaths are low because of restrictions? Show me the proof of that.

If you retort that I should show you how this isn't the case well, let me put to you the recorded positive cases together with a reasonable assumption that recorded positives are significantly lower than those that actually got infected with covid in 9 months.

70,005 recorded positive cases under the age of 85 in 9 months of covid in Ireland. 400 deaths with covid during that time.

The reasonable assumption is that actual infections are significantly higher. I think the WHO estimates ten times. Let's just take 7 times because I still think my point can be comfortably made.

Estimate of 490,000 cases in 9 months and 390 deaths. 0.08% of infections likely end up dead.

These are objectively pithy numbers. That's the end of the discussion on the harm of covid. What many posters seem to ignore is that covid is not the only show in town and they also don't seem to accept that social and economic restrictions for covid only do not make a lot of sense. Context is entirely missing from the covid hysteria.

For Ireland, could you provide citation please?

Surely you are not suggesting that Irelands testing regime would be akin to third world countries?

BryanMartin21

BryanMartin21 wrote: »

70,005 recorded positive cases under the age of 85 in 9 months of covid in Ireland. 400 deaths with covid during that time.

There have been almost 3 times that number, over 1100 deaths of people under the age of 85 since February.

Source (pdf)- Page 11

Ginger n Lemon

Deleted User wrote: »

There have been almost 3 times that number, over 1100 deaths of people under the age of 85 since February.

Source (pdf)- Page 11

44% + of deaths with covid are people over 85 years of age :eek:

Co incidentally over the 82 year life expectancy age also.

140 deaths under the age of 64.

People under 64 affected by yo yo useless lockdowns? Over 3 million. or maybe over 4 million.

Wow.

VonLuck

BryanMartin21 wrote: »

These are objectively pithy numbers. That's the end of the discussion on the harm of covid. What many posters seem to ignore is that covid is not the only show in town and they also don't seem to accept that social and economic restrictions for covid only do not make a lot of sense. Context is entirely missing from the covid hysteria.

You are arguing against a point I didn't make. I said that the deaths are so low because of the restrictions. You're arguing that the cases are low relative to the number of infections. Entirely different things.

You can't argue against the fact that deaths would be higher if not for the restrictions.

Johnboy1951

VonLuck wrote: »

You are arguing against a point I didn't make. I said that the deaths are so low because of the restrictions. You're arguing that the cases are low relative to the number of infections. Entirely different things.

You can't argue against the fact that deaths would be higher if not for the restrictions.

Do you have directly comparative figures?

Please post if so.

Ginger n Lemon

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

44% + of deaths with covid are people over 85 years of age :eek:

Co incidentally over the 82 year life expectancy age also.

140 deaths under the age of 64.

So what?........this is the crap I'm talking about. Do they not count because they're old or something?

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Do you have directly comparative figures?

Please post if so.

Are you seriously asking him for fatality rates if we'd had less restrictions?

Take a look across the pond to see what could have been with just a little less leadership and compliance.

Ginger n Lemon

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

44% + of deaths with covid are people over 85 years of age :eek:

Co incidentally over the 82 year life expectancy age also.

140 deaths under the age of 64.

People under 64 affected by yo yo useless lockdowns? Over 3 million. or maybe over 4 million.

Wow.

Someone over 82 should just be thankful they lived that long?

Johnboy1951

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you seriously asking him for fatality rates if we'd had less restrictions?

Take a look across the pond to see what could have been with just a little less leadership and compliance.

Having stated something as fact then I most certainly do expect to see 'something' to back up what appears to be opinion and not fact.

I can quite simply state that the number of deaths caused by lockdowns are far greater than those without lockdowns, but it is not a fact unless I can support my statement.

normanoffside

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Someone over 82 should just be thankful they lived that long?

By looking at the excess deaths in any country you’d realise that the vast majority of people who died with Covid were going to die anyway, Covid or not. In most cases Covid is only one of many factors in their death and not necessarily the cause of it.

Countries with more infections have had more people die with Covid and counties with less infections have had less people die with Covid, but this does not mean that more or less people actually died.

Ginger n Lemon

Jaysus, reading above posts you'd think people are immortal.

Youd also think that its covid that kills them as well, completely disregarding the little inconvenient fact that cancer is listed as an underlying condition per HSE when reporting those deaths and covid cases... lung cancer. heart disease. list goes on and on

I know right, bad cancer. Bad covid. people should live much longer than life expectancy :rolleyes:

the kelt

Deleted User wrote: »

So what?........this is the crap I'm talking about. Do they not count because they're old or something?

But in reality restrictions are not being put in place to save the elderly.

If that actually was the modus operandi of NPHET not only have they failed, theyve actually been complicit in its failure.

VonLuck

VonLuck wrote: »

You are arguing against a point I didn't make. I said that the deaths are so low because of the restrictions. You're arguing that the cases are low relative to the number of infections. Entirely different things.

You can't argue against the fact that deaths would be higher if not for the restrictions.

Much stricter measures in nursing homes and much more relaxed restrictions overall would have resulted in a significantly lower death toll.

We failed to protect the one environment where Covid actually is dangerous.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Someone over 82 should just be thankful they lived that long?

Yes.. and hopefully they can live even longer if they take care of themselves.

When I’m 82 I certainly hope young people are not locked up in a bizarre attempt to prolong my life.

Quantum Erasure

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Jaysus, reading above posts you'd think people are immortal.

Youd also think that its covid that kills them as well, completely disregarding the little inconvenient fact that cancer is listed as an underlying condition per HSE when reporting those deaths and covid cases... lung cancer. heart disease. list goes on and on

I know right, bad cancer. Bad covid. people should live much longer than life expectancy :rolleyes:

That's life expectancy at birth*, if you've already lived that long, you should expect to live 10 or 12 years longer

iamwhoiam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes.. and hopefully they can live even longer if they take care of themselves.

When I’m 82 I certainly hope young people are not locked up in a bizarre attempt to prolong my life.

Do you have a nana or granda ? It might be easier for you if you realise you are protecting them .

Quantum Erasure

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

That's life expectancy at birth*, if you've already lived that long, you should expect to live 10 or 12 years longer

Surely that depends on all kinds of circumstances...

FintanMcluskey

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

That's life expectancy at birth*, if you've already lived that long, you should expect to live 10 or 12 years longer

Are you suggesting nobody should expect to die between the ages of 82-94?

Ginger n Lemon

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Are you suggesting nobody should expect to die between the ages of 82-94?

2020 strikes again.

iamwhoiam

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Do you have a nana or granda ? It might be easier for you if you realise you are protecting them .

Protecting them from 1 illness out of god knows how many illnesses and denying them many things in the process. Company, help with groceries, lift to the gp etc.

I doubt any elderly people will appreciate the protection if they die alone at home.

OwenM

Stormyteacup wrote: »

You know, we could have lower deaths had we not eased any restrictions at all back in May.

We haven’t been careful enough. Could have got to zero deaths.

That's a facile view, maybe we could have (unlikely but especially unlikely while using WHO guidance on death classification) but how would we have stayed there without rendering waste to the economy and killing as many if not more from other causes. This is simple 'Zero-Covid' nonsense. I haven't even mentioned the border with NI.

copeyhagen

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

44% + of deaths with covid are people over 85 years of age :eek:

Co incidentally over the 82 year life expectancy age also.

140 deaths under the age of 64.

People under 64 affected by yo yo useless lockdowns? Over 3 million. or maybe over 4 million.

Wow.

"1 death is too many, zero covid, blah blah blah"

lost 1 37th of my life to this ****e.

bb1234567

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

That's life expectancy at birth*, if you've already lived that long, you should expect to live 10 or 12 years longer

True, something a lot of people forget here, if you didn't die in a car crash or whatever when you were young and made it to 60 then 82 is a pretty young age to die at in Ireland.

Life expectancy at age 80 in Ireland is 8.6 years as of 2015, even higher now by 2020.
https://knoema.com/atlas/Ireland/topics/Demographics/Age/Life-expectancy-at-age-80-years