Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Captain_Crash

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You either own your own premises or have a generous landlord in that situation, most people will lose even ones staying open with little trade.

It’s not me buddy, it’s honestly a friend! Don’t know the ownership situation, he might own the building but I don’t think so! It was just an off the cuff remark in a group chat so I’ve no more detail. Maybe a business owner can chime in with details of the government packages on offer??

It is lockdown until the end of March. Government know it already but just don’t have the stones to announce it that way. They’d likely lose public support and compliance if they did.

I can only see some small relaxations before then. Maybe retail.

Happy grim new year

Necro

Lundstram wrote: »

If your posts on here represent your real life personality, I'm not surprised a huge chunk of your day is spent being threatened with physical violence.

If you think sport which keeps people healthy and mentally fit is trivial then our frontline staff need retraining.

Your lack of empathy is startling for a so called HCP. I have my doubts you are one, though. I really hope you're not.

oldtimeyfella wrote: »

People playing games is completely trivial and my job is in the real world so they don't train us in any aspect of grown adults chasing a ball around a field to feel happy.


I see your avatar is some grown man that plays litertal childrens games for a living so i don't expect you'll understand how completely pointless that is.

Mod:

Both of you cop on and stop with the personal jibes. Don't agree with each other and can't post in a civil manner? Pop each other on ignore then.
If you both can't adhere to that I'll threadban you both

_Kaiser_

Uriel. wrote: »

If the first time you're hearing age being a significant factor in outcomes and severity of illness is this morning, I can only assume you've been in hibernation since March.

Not at all. If anything it's a point that has been regularly reiterated by myself and others in this thread and elsewhere when others try to use unfortunate outlier situations as a basis to claim that "see, we're all in danger!" - generally coupled with an attempt to justify whatever overreaction Tony H and co have come up with.

Absolutely are some people at significant risk from CV-19 but thankfully those are mostly in a known, small demographic and that's where we should be focusing our efforts rather than the 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' approach taken to-date.

Ashleigh1986

The more this pandemic goes on you begin to realise it's all about our own personal situation .
If your in a public sector job or working in a job were your salary hasn't been effected by one cent , or if your self employed or work in hospitality .
We are certainly ...NOT IN THIS TOGETHER .
Of course the ones making the decisions haven't lost one cent since March .
My own salary has been effected by around 50% .
I've had to move back in with my parents because I couldn't afford my rent .
I haven lived in my parents house in over 30 years .
The thoughts of the next 6 months of this is so depressing .
But ... We are all in this together .

_Kaiser_

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

The more this pandemic goes on you begin to realise it's all about our own personal situation .
If your in a public sector job or working in a job were your salary hasn't been effected by one cent , or if your self employed or work in hospitality .
We are certainly ...NOT IN THIS TOGETHER .
Of course the ones making the decisions haven't lost one cent since March .
My own salary has been effected by around 50% .
I've had to move back in with my parents because I couldn't afford my rent .
I haven lived in my parents house in over 30 years .
The thoughts of the next 6 months of this is so depressing .
But ... We are all in this together .

The problem is many are conflating "we're all in this together" with "everyone is in this with me"

Whether that be outrage that other people aren't taking the virus as seriously as they are, or as worried about it, or whether it's because they think that because they personally are doing OK, everyone else must be too or should "suck it up" (as I've seen people told to do on this thread).

It's just not the case. Everyone needs to look at the situation in the context of their own health and those around them and take whatever steps accordingly.

But absolutely will it come down to personal responsibility in the end, and that seems to terrify some who have become very accustomed to, and secure in, having NPHET and Government make the decisions for them.

froog

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The problem is many are conflating "we're all in this together" with "everyone is in this with me"

Whether that be outrage that other people aren't taking the virus as seriously as they are, or as worried about it, or whether it's because they think that because they personally are doing OK, everyone else must be too or should "suck it up" (as I've seen people told to do on this thread).

It's just not the case. Everyone needs to look at the situation in the context of their own health and those around them and take whatever steps accordingly.

But absolutely will it come down to personal responsibility in the end, and that seems to terrify some who have become very accustomed to, and secure in, having NPHET and Government make the decisions for them.

leaving it to personal responsibility - i mean that's what we've basically had since december and look at us now. it doesn't work.

_Kaiser_

froog wrote: »

leaving it to personal responsibility - i mean that's what we've basically had since december and look at us now. it doesn't work.

What exactly are we looking at? New cases? I keep saying it - they mean nothing in isolation.. it's the OUTCOME of those cases that matters.

So let's look at those.. more in hospital.. ok (some of which caught it while in there), but how many in ICU.. minimal. What about deaths... still extremely low.

Case hysteria aside, the reality is this virus is not deadly or even dangerous to the majority of the population - many of whom may not even realise they have it unless tested . That is a very good thing! Would you prefer that we saw the tens of thousands dead originally predicted?

Maybe take a step back, stop worrying about the selective headlines being quoted and look at the overall picture.

froog

froog wrote: »

leaving it to personal responsibility - i mean that's what we've basically had since december and look at us now. it doesn't work.

First of all, December is the busiest month of the year. Even more so when shops had been closed in the lead up to Christmas.

Also, if you lock people up for months on end and give them a few weeks to go out before locking them up again, people will go wild.

If business was open permanently, people would go at a normal rate.

It’s the failed policies that are the problem. Let’s hope we can just vaccinate people quickly. Although it’s not promising having a minister on radio today saying we won’t have everybody vaccinated in 2021...

froog

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What exactly are we looking at? New cases? I keep saying it - they mean nothing in isolation.. it's the OUTCOME of those cases that matters.

So let's look at those.. more in hospital.. ok (some of which caught it while in there), but how many in ICU.. minimal. What about deaths... still extremely low.

Case hysteria aside, the reality is this virus is not deadly or even dangerous to the majority of the population - many of whom may not even realise they have it unless tested . That is a very good thing! Would you prefer that we saw the tens of thousands dead originally predicted?

Maybe take a step back, stop worrying about the selective headlines being quoted and look at the overall picture.

hospital admissions.

Boggles

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What exactly are we looking at? New cases? I keep saying it - they mean nothing in isolation.. it's the OUTCOME of those cases that matters.

Absolute nonsense, surveillance of a once in a generation pandemic is one of the most important tools we have.

To keep non covid health care functioning you need to know what is coming down the line so you can plan appropriately.

It's next level cowardice, we can't ignore our way through the pandemic or pretend it's not as dangerous or infectious as it is.

Grow up man FFS, there is a reason your opinions are on the fringe and not because you are far more enlightened than public health or science it's because you are just wrong. Accept it and move on, you'll feel better, I promise you.

JRant

Boggles wrote: »

Absolute nonsense, surveillance of a once in a generation pandemic is one of the most important tools we have.

To keep non covid health care functioning you need to know what is coming down the line so you can plan appropriately.

It's next level cowardice, we can't ignore our way through the pandemic or pretend it's not as dangerous or infectious as it is.

Grow up man FFS, there is a reason your opinions are on the fringe and not because you are far more enlightened than public health or science it's because you are just wrong. Accept it and move on, you'll feel better, I promise you.

Oh yeah, plan accordingly and not add any additional capacity to hospitals. That's the current plan. Also, if surveillance is so important, why are we not issuing rapid antigen tests to the entire population. They are not perfect but they would absolutely help keep numbers down.

paw patrol

well look at this (below). It's an issue for hospitals and care homes. Covid has been and still is over hyped fear mongering.


I once posted that my firm belief was all these measures were designed to shift responsibility from the state to the general population.

Easier to blame teenagers ,house parties and Gemma o'D than expect results from the state apparatus.

makes sense though - they made a boll9cks of MRSA in the past.


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/two-thirds-of-covid-deaths-in-december-linked-to-outbreaks-in-hospitals-and-nursing-homes-39917924.html

Two-thirds of Covid deaths in December linked to outbreaks in hospitals and nursing homes



66 out of 101 virus fatalities this month associated with care settings

Boggles

JRant wrote: »

Oh yeah, plan accordingly and not add any additional capacity to hospitals. That's the current plan. Also, if surveillance is so important, why are we not issuing rapid antigen tests to the entire population. They are not perfect but they would absolutely help keep numbers down.

Because they are shít, this all ready been pointed out to you.

It's what the White House used, was it 2 or 3 super spreader events they hosted? I can't remember.

Saw on main thread, 66 of the 101 deaths in December were due to hospital and nursing home outbreaks.

Disgraceful that we still haven’t got more control over those environments in a year.

Also not an issue that lockdown will help with.

Windmill100000

Boggles wrote: »

Grow up man FFS, there is a reason your opinions are on the fringe and not because you are far more enlightened than public health or science it's because you are just wrong. Accept it and move on, you'll feel better, I promise you.

They are hardly on the fringe. There is a great deal of support on here and in the real world for similar views. Who are you to say someone is wrong? We are all entitled to our opinion, even those that don't agree with you.

hamburgham

paw patrol wrote: »

well look at this (below). It's an issue for hospitals and care homes. Covid has been and still is over hyped fear mongering.


I once posted that my firm belief was all these measures were designed to shift responsibility from the state to the general population.

Easier to blame teenagers ,house parties and gemma of D than expect results from the state apparatus.


makes sense though - they made a boll9cks of MRSA in the past.





https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/two-thirds-of-covid-deaths-in-december-linked-to-outbreaks-in-hospitals-and-nursing-homes-39917924.html

Stunning article.Should be the headline today.

And according to Honohan, this “ should not be interpreted as any criticism” of those working in these settings. Incredible. Close down two penny businesses all over the country instead and throw mud over them while you’re at it.

normanoffside

Deleted User wrote: »

Saw on main thread, 66 of the 101 deaths in December were due to hospital and nursing home outbreaks.

Disgraceful that we still haven’t got more control over those environments in a year.

Also not an issue that lockdown will help with.

Tony says if we lock everything down and stop covid on the outside then it will stop getting into these locations.
There's no other way to do it and even if there might be a way he is not going to try because he is too stuck in his ways.

normanoffside

hamburgham wrote: »

And according to Honohan, this “ should not be interpreted as any criticism” of those working in these settings.

He still doesn't get it. Nobody is blaming the nurses and doctors, they are blaming him and the HSE for failing to put in adequate testing and protection measures.

Absolute cretin of a man.

_Kaiser_

Boggles wrote: »

Absolute nonsense, surveillance of a once in a generation pandemic is one of the most important tools we have.

To keep non covid health care functioning you need to know what is coming down the line so you can plan appropriately.

It's next level cowardice, we can't ignore our way through the pandemic or pretend it's not as dangerous or infectious as it is.

Grow up man FFS, there is a reason your opinions are on the fringe and not because you are far more enlightened than public health or science it's because you are just wrong. Accept it and move on, you'll feel better, I promise you.

Aside from simply looking around you in the last 9 months, the HSE's own numbers have proven that the pandemic is nowhere near as dangerous as was feared initially. Infectious maybe - but then if many of those infected don't even realise they have it, is it a big deal to them?

Once again.. neither I nor anyone else that I've seen post, has stated that the virus isn't dangerous to SOME, or that those people shouldn't take precautions (up to and including self-isolation depending on their medical circumstances), nor that they shouldn't be supported (socially and financially) in doing so... but for most people the danger thankfully isn't there.

The reality is that you cannot run a society, economy or country on the basis of fear and isolation, or ongoing disruptive restrictions in the medium to long term. It's neither practical nor desirable and couple that to the empirical reality that most people (again, thankfully!) don't even get sick from CV-19 and you can see why more people have become frustrated and apathetic towards the ongoing predictions of doom from NPHET - especially when they're coupled with such nonsense as being allowed to wander around the grocery section of Tesco as long as you like, but beware the clothing aisles! :rolleyes: (and yes, I'm aware they are closed so as to not disadvantage smaller traders - but you know what would work better there? Allowing them to open under the same limits they were already operating under!)

Leaving aside your pram toy-throwing ("grow up" indeed!), I think you'll find that even NPHET and Government have realised and accepted that buy-in to all this has steadily fallen in recent months (why else the need to "bribe" people with - broken - promises of a decent Christmas so they'd comply? Before long it'll be "save Paddy's Day" no doubt), because of the clear and obvious mismatch between prediction/model and on-the-ground reality.

You can only cry "Wolf" so long before people start ignoring you.

CIARAN_BOYLE

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What exactly are we looking at? New cases? I keep saying it - they mean nothing in isolation.. it's the OUTCOME of those cases that matters.

The outcome is easily modelable.

Windmill100000

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Saw on main thread, 66 of the 101 deaths in December were due to hospital and nursing home outbreaks.

Disgraceful that we still haven’t got more control over those environments in a year.

Also not an issue that lockdown will help with.

I work in a hospital and it is an issue, but people are admitted with negative swabs (for example nursing home patients) and can test positive several days later infecting all those in a shared room and staff.

We are all in PPE, masks for 12-hour shifts, eating in designated isolated areas, visitors not allowed, twice daily temp checks and tested routinely for covid.

It is not going to be possible to eliminate it, I think we need to be realistic.

_Kaiser_

froog wrote: »

hospital admissions.

What about them?

(if you are just going to respond with trite one-liners to a considered post, I see no reason to consider whatever point you have to make.. but then we've been here before haven't we?)

_Kaiser_

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The outcome is easily modelable.

Yep because the "models" have served us well previously

Refer to my response a post or two above yours.

normanoffside

froog wrote: »

hospital admissions.

As the independent article highlights, most of these are not admissions with covid but patients catching it inside hospital.

froog

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What about them?

(if you are just going to respond with trite one-liners to a considered post, I see no reason to consider whatever point you have to make.. but then we've been here before haven't we?)

you asked what are we looking at to say that things are bad right now. i answered hospital admissions. do you want me to explain why an increase in hospital admissions is a bad thing?

froog

normanoffside wrote: »

As the independent article highlights, most of these are not admissions with covid but patients catching it inside hospital.

no it doesn't.

_Kaiser_

froog wrote: »

you asked what are we looking at to say that things are bad right now. i answered hospital admissions. do you want me to explain why an increase in hospital admissions is a bad thing?

Norman and the Indo article linked to by Paw above show the flaw in that one.

Not for the first time either that the headline figures didn't match up with the details though I'll grant you.

polesheep

Windmill100000 wrote: »

I work in a hospital and it is an issue, but people are admitted with negative swabs (for example nursing home patients) and can test positive several days later infecting all those in a shared room and staff.

We are all in PPE, masks for 12-hour shifts, eating in designated isolated areas, visitors not allowed, twice daily temp checks and tested routinely for covid.

It is not going to be possible to eliminate it, I think we need to be realistic.

Interesting what you say regarding the Covid tests. My wife, a nurse, works in a very high Covid risk area - lots of aerosols. She has never been tested for Covid. I mistakenly thought that she had been tested in September but it turns out that she has never been tested. Neither has she or her colleagues been offered the vaccine yet, despite the very high risk area of work.

Windmill100000

polesheep wrote: »

Interesting what you say regarding the Covid tests. My wife, a nurse, works in a very high Covid risk area - lots of aerosols. She has never been tested for Covid. I mistakenly thought that she had been tested in September but it turns out that she has never been tested. Neither has she or her colleagues been offered the vaccine yet, despite the very high risk area of work.

We are tested every time a patient we have cared for tests positive. I've been tested 4 times to date.

There is contact tracing on every patient so if a patient tests positive, there is a list of all those that have been with the patient in the preceding days and they are contacted for a test.