Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Windmill100000

But if we consider that the elderly are far more likely to die from covid than any other age group, then it makes sense that care homes will be a problem, not just in Ireland but any country. Similarly, the vast majority of people in hospital for extended stays are the elderly.

froog

SusieBlue wrote: »

If they are shutting down the economy for the 3rd time this year the very least I would be expecting is that they have the areas under their own remit and management under control.
The fact that 66 of the 101 deaths in December occurred in nursing homes and other care facilities is absolutely unforgivable.

They are wagging the finger and locking us down while neglecting to acknowledge or do anything to rectify the fact that they have completely and repeatedly dropped the ball with hospital outbreaks, nursing homes, and direct provision centres.

I expect accountability and I expect better than the current clusters and deaths coming out of these facilities. No country is perfect & zero cases/deaths is obviously unattainable but the fact that over two thirds of coronavirus deaths this month occurred in these settings is just unacceptable and not good enough.

i agree with you on nursing homes of course and i'm not defending the HSE. my point is stamping our feet and saying the health service is **** why should we lock down and it's all their fault for the virus spreading is just childish and wrong. the HSE have fcuked up a lot of things, and the virus is out of control now which is down to people not giving a fcuk over christmas. the two aren't mutually exclusive.

froog

i would also add that nursing home deaths are not unique to ireland. it's the same story all over the world. as you would expect by a virus whose fatality risk is heavily age dependent.

https://www.mcknights.com/news/81-percent-of-covid-19-deaths-here-are-nursing-home-related-double-the-average-global-rates-both-shocking-and-avoidable/

https://apnews.com/article/europe-madrid-coronavirus-pandemic-barcelona-nursing-homes-c0d659f2af4cd22750201c0166a5889c

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/10/15/long-term-elder-care-coronavirus-nursing-homes-research-lessons/

Windmill100000

froog wrote: »

i would also add that nursing home deaths are not unique to ireland. it's the same story all over the world. as you would expect by a virus whose fatality risk is heavily age dependent.

https://www.mcknights.com/news/81-percent-of-covid-19-deaths-here-are-nursing-home-related-double-the-average-global-rates-both-shocking-and-avoidable/

https://apnews.com/article/europe-madrid-coronavirus-pandemic-barcelona-nursing-homes-c0d659f2af4cd22750201c0166a5889c

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/10/15/long-term-elder-care-coronavirus-nursing-homes-research-lessons/

Sadly, most people in nursing homes need a lot of hands-on care, often full care, including toileting, bathing, feeding. Many are bed bound.

Considering this, transmission is a serious problem and a single case can very quickly spread to a cluster.

FintanMcluskey

froog wrote: »

i would also add that nursing home deaths are not unique to ireland. it's the same story all over the world. as you would expect by a virus whose fatality risk is heavily age dependent.

https://www.mcknights.com/news/81-percent-of-covid-19-deaths-here-are-nursing-home-related-double-the-average-global-rates-both-shocking-and-avoidable/

https://apnews.com/article/europe-madrid-coronavirus-pandemic-barcelona-nursing-homes-c0d659f2af4cd22750201c0166a5889c

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/10/15/long-term-elder-care-coronavirus-nursing-homes-research-lessons/

So when do we realise community suppression won’t help prevent the virus spread in those settings?

JRant

Boggles wrote: »

Because they are shít, this all ready been pointed out to you.

It's what the White House used, was it 2 or 3 super spreader events they hosted? I can't remember.

The PCR test is not withouts its own major flaws

https://cormandrostenreview.com/report/

froog

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

So when do we realise community suppression won’t help prevent the virus spread in those settings?

it helps. less virus around, less chance a healthcare worker will get it and transmit it. can you seriously not understand that simple concept?

AndrewJRenko

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

So when do we realise community suppression won’t help prevent the virus spread in those settings?

Nursing home staff ARE in the community. They live with families and house mates. They shop. They exercise.

AndrewJRenko

SusieBlue wrote: »

If they are shutting down the economy for the 3rd time this year the very least I would be expecting is that they have the areas under their own remit and management under control.
The fact that 66 of the 101 deaths in December occurred in nursing homes and other care facilities is absolutely unforgivable.

They are wagging the finger and locking us down while neglecting to acknowledge or do anything to rectify the fact that they have completely and repeatedly dropped the ball with hospital outbreaks, nursing homes, and direct provision centres.

I expect accountability and I expect better than the current clusters and deaths coming out of these facilities. No country is perfect & zero cases/deaths is obviously unattainable but the fact that over two thirds of coronavirus deaths this month occurred in these settings is just unacceptable and not good enough.

The vast majority of nursing homes are privately owned and managed. HSE can provide advice. HIQA can inspect.

But they are managed independently.

FintanMcluskey

froog wrote: »

it helps. less virus around, less chance a healthcare worker will get it and transmit it. can you seriously not understand that simple concept?

With so many outbreaks in those places already it’s not going to be improved with restrictions in the community.

The outbreaks are already now in those settings, the horse has bolted.

Can you seriously not understand that simple concept?

froog

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

With so many outbreaks in those places already it’s not going to be improved with restrictions in the community.

The outbreaks are already now in those settings, the horse has bolted.

Can you seriously not understand that simple concept?

how do you think those outbreaks started fintan? how did covid get in there. take your time.

FintanMcluskey

froog wrote: »

how do you think those outbreaks started fintan? how did covid get in there. take your time.

It got in there when Covid arrived in Ireland.

It’s a highly transmissible virus rampant among vulnerable people in close proximity who require close human contact to carry out the most basic of functions each day.

Its already in those settings

Closing gyms won’t help in those settings

Closing non essential retail won’t help in those settings

It’s too late.

Whatever the cause it’s in those settings

Perhaps an inquest will shine light on what may be mismanagement or poor policies implemented by management

froog

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It got in there when Covid arrived in Ireland.

It’s a highly transmissible virus rampant among vulnerable people in close proximity who require close human contact to carry out the most basic function each day.

Its already in those settings

Closing gyms won’t help in those settings

Closing non essential retail won’t help in those settings

It’s too late.

Whatever the cause it’s in those settings

Perhaps an inquest will shine light on what may be mismanagement or poor policies implemented by management

you really to educate yourself on this virus.

you think covid is a permanent thing? people are infectious forever? a building is covid forever once an infected worker has been there?

i really hope you're trolling lad.

froog

the level of ignorance about this virus in this thread is hard to believe. truly staggering.

Charles Babbage

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It’s too late.

It is never too late. As Tony Holohan said, if everyone stayed at home for a fortnight then Covid would end.

SusieBlue

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The vast majority of nursing homes are privately owned and managed. HSE can provide advice. HIQA can inspect.

But they are managed independently.

That didn’t stop Tony from insisting that nursing home visits were safe and ok at the height of the pandemic, shipping covid positive elderly patients back to nursing homes to free up beds, and dropping the ball with supplying them PPE when the planes started coming in from China. It can’t always be someone else’s fault.

Any comments on how the vast majority of hospitalisations are from patients who were hospitalised for other health issues but who contacted covid after they were admitted? We’ve already had several HSE staff confirm on this thread that staff aren’t regularly tested, even if they’re in contact with a patient.
Or the downright negligence of the direct provision centres? There is one just 5 minutes down the road from me that had over 30 cases alone today.
There is just no justifying their ineptitude.

FintanMcluskey

froog wrote: »

you really to educate yourself on this virus.

you think covid is a permanent thing? people are infectious forever? a building is covid forever once an infected worker has been there?

i really hope you're trolling lad.

froog wrote: »

the level of ignorance about this virus in this thread is hard to believe. truly staggering.

Will you stop the unnecessary arrogance with your posting.

The virus is in care home settings spreading among the most vulnerable in society.

Educate your self on the mechanics of the virus in those settings.

I’ve just realised I’m feeding it

Apologies for clogging up the thread

SusieBlue

Charles Babbage wrote: »

It is never too late. As Tony Holohan said, if everyone stayed at home for a fortnight then Covid would end.

Absolute BS. The first lockdown lasted near on 13 weeks and had pretty much full compliance from the public.
We have open borders so covid did not end despite our best efforts. It will not end until the majority of the population is vaccinated.
Lockdown is merely a suppressant and not a cure.

stateofflux

If anyone could enlighten me as to the following it would be much appreciated:

A) Was this level of exponential cases forecast or is it a shock even to NPHET?

How much will it affect the planned logistical timeframe of a Vaccine rollout?

FintanMcluskey

Charles Babbage wrote: »

It is never too late. As Tony Holohan said, if everyone stayed at home for a fortnight then Covid would end.

Sitting at home for 2 weeks absolutely won’t solve the issue in settings like care homes

froog

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Will you stop the unnecessary arrogance with your posting.

The virus is in care home settings spreading among the most vulnerable in society.

Educate your self on the mechanics of the virus in those settings.

I’ve just realised I’m feeding it

Apologies for clogging up the thread

the virus doesn't stay permanently in buildings Fintan.

FintanMcluskey

froog wrote: »

the virus doesn't stay permanently in buildings Fintan.

What in the buildings Froog?

Vulnerable people and lots of them requiring daily human contact for survival.

People and buildings are different

Grandeeod

Happy New Year lads!:D A great thread for a neutral. Have a beer to celebrate! Maybe do a WW1 Trenches gig while you're at it. Looking forward to reading more later today!

AndrewJRenko

SusieBlue wrote: »

That didn’t stop Tony from insisting that nursing home visits were safe and ok at the height of the pandemic, shipping covid positive elderly patients back to nursing homes to free up beds, and dropping the ball with supplying them PPE when the planes started coming in from China. It can’t always be someone else’s fault.

Any comments on how the vast majority of hospitalisations are from patients who were hospitalised for other health issues but who contacted covid after they were admitted? We’ve already had several HSE staff confirm on this thread that staff aren’t regularly tested, even if they’re in contact with a patient.
Or the downright negligence of the direct provision centres? There is one just 5 minutes down the road from me that had over 30 cases alone today.
There is just no justifying their ineptitude.

Why would it be Tony's job to supply private businesses with PPE? These are private, for profit businesses. Where was their own infection control plan and associated supplies?

Some light reading for the "it's only a flu" lads

https://twitter.com/Jopo_dr/status/1344620439767666688?s=19

Charles Babbage

SusieBlue wrote: »

Absolute BS. The first lockdown lasted near on 13 weeks and had pretty much full compliance from the public.
We have open borders so covid did not end despite our best efforts. It will not end until the majority of the population is vaccinated.
Lockdown is merely a suppressant and not a cure.

The first lockdown greatly reduced the virus, but people were still out and about going to shops etc, going to work in meat plants, and there was too much health care transmission. Clearly, if you wanted to kill this off then you would have to deal with the borders.

SusieBlue

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why would it be Tony's job to supply private businesses with PPE? These are private, for profit businesses. Where was their own infection control plan and associated supplies?

Some light reading for the "it's only a flu" lads
https://twitter.com/Jopo_dr/status/1344620439767666688?s=19

Because there was a worldwide shortage and the only way to access such equipment at the time was through governments? Private businesses were unable to source it of their own accord, hence Aer Lingus flying to China on our behalf, and when the equipment arrived, nursing homes were among the very last to be offered any.

The lack of comment on the disgraceful conditions in direct provision centres and mismanagement of hospital outbreaks speaks absolute volumes.

SusieBlue

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The first lockdown greatly reduced the virus, but people were still out and about going to shops etc, going to work in meat plants, and there was too much health care transmission. Clearly, if you wanted to kill this off then you would have to deal with the borders.

The first lockdown was the best and only chance we had, we got our numbers down to single digits through our monumental effort and sacrifice which was a great achievement.
I honestly don’t think we could have done any more than what we did to flatten the curve first time around. We had near 100% compliance.
The problem is that lockdown is not a cure, it’s just a suppressant and with an open border the numbers were always going to go back up.
If two weeks of hard lockdown was the solution, this nightmare would have ended back in early April 2020.

mandrake04

JRant wrote: »

Oh yeah, plan accordingly and not add any additional capacity to hospitals. That's the current plan. Also, if surveillance is so important, why are we not issuing rapid antigen tests to the entire population. They are not perfect but they would absolutely help keep numbers down.

Antigen tests to those in the business are viewed as a bit 3rd world, still I have employee shares in one of the manufacturers that make them as I used to work for them so I get a semi hardon when dumb countries panic and buy this stuff so I still think there's a use for them anyway.

Look at Slovakia great example, mass testing they said... a complete game changer they said... leading the world they said... Pat Kenny practically masturbating on air over Rapid testing in Slovakia.

Rapid mass testing and then lockdowns and they still have still have 6K cases yesterday and their daily deaths 80-100.

USA also used antigen testing and they are not having anywhere near success.

Pat Kenny's obsession was notably severely dented in this Podcast

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-pat-kenny-show/mass-testing-slovakia-set-to-return-to-lockdown


Daily Antigen testing in somewhere like work place is more useful rather than one off testing such as mass testing or testing at an airport, actually any suggesting of antigen testing at an airport needs good kicking.

JRant

mandrake04 wrote: »

Antigen tests to those in the business are viewed as a bit 3rd world, still I have employee shares in one of the manufacturers that make them as I used to work for them so I get a semi hardon when dumb countries panic and buy this stuff so I still think there's a use for them anyway.

Look at Slovakia great example, mass testing they said... a complete game changer they said... leading the world they said... Pat Kenny practically masturbating on air over Rapid testing in Slovakia.

Rapid mass testing and then lockdowns and they still have still have 6K cases yesterday and their daily deaths 80-100.

USA also used antigen testing and they are not having anywhere near success.

Pat Kenny's obsession was notably severely dented in this Podcast

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-pat-kenny-show/mass-testing-slovakia-set-to-return-to-lockdown


Daily Antigen testing in somewhere like work place is more useful rather than one off testing such as mass testing or testing at an airport, actually any suggesting of antigen testing at an airport needs good kicking.

I thought they weren't approved for general use in the US as they can't get approval to be used as medical devices.

froog

froog wrote: »

the level of ignorance about this virus in this thread is hard to believe. truly staggering.

Do we really need these sort of tired one liners constantly?