Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

mandrake04

JRant wrote: »

I thought they weren't approved for general use in the US as they can't get approval to be used as medical devices.

They got EUA for BinaxNOW in the US, Trump ordered 150m but we all know how things are going there.


https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/08/27/trump-administration-will-deploy-150-million-rapid-tests-in-2020.html

I'm not bagging them completely, if used daily they can be of use but not as one off and not for self-test.

AndrewJRenko

SusieBlue wrote: »

Because there was a worldwide shortage and the only way to access such equipment at the time was through governments? Private businesses were unable to source it of their own accord, hence Aer Lingus flying to China on our behalf, and when the equipment arrived, nursing homes were among the very last to be offered any.

Why didn't they have their own stocks on standby? If you're running a business for vulnerable people, surely you should have done some planning and preparation for such a scenario, instead of sticking your hand out to the Government when times get tough?

AndrewJRenko

mandrake04 wrote: »

Antigen tests to those in the business are viewed as a bit 3rd world, still I have employee shares in one of the manufacturers that make them as I used to work for them so I get a semi hardon when dumb countries panic and buy this stuff so I still think there's a use for them anyway.

Look at Slovakia great example, mass testing they said... a complete game changer they said... leading the world they said... Pat Kenny practically masturbating on air over Rapid testing in Slovakia.

Rapid mass testing and then lockdowns and they still have still have 6K cases yesterday and their daily deaths 80-100.

USA also used antigen testing and they are not having anywhere near success.

Pat Kenny's obsession was notably severely dented in this Podcast

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-pat-kenny-show/mass-testing-slovakia-set-to-return-to-lockdown


Daily Antigen testing in somewhere like work place is more useful rather than one off testing such as mass testing or testing at an airport, actually any suggesting of antigen testing at an airport needs good kicking.

Surely you're not suggesting that Newstalk hosts don't have all the answers to things?

zerosugarbuzz

SusieBlue wrote: »

The first lockdown was the best and only chance we had, we got our numbers down to single digits through our monumental effort and sacrifice which was a great achievement.
I honestly don’t think we could have done any more than what we did to flatten the curve first time around. We had near 100% compliance.
The problem is that lockdown is not a cure, it’s just a suppressant and with an open border the numbers were always going to go back up.
If two weeks of hard lockdown was the solution, this nightmare would have ended back in early April 2020.

Other than the fact that we had people arriving from many destinations, at our airports, and being advised to self isolate rather than mandated to do so. We continue to go round in circles on this.

mandrake04

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Surely you're not suggesting that Newstalk hosts don't have all the answers to things?

Nah, I think they are Idiots... especially when they keep going on about Antigen testing.

Windmill100000

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

Other than the fact that we had people arriving from many destinations, at our airports, and being advised to self isolate rather than mandated to do so. We continue to go round in circles on this.

Absolutely agree. While we all locked down, and many sacrificed jobs doing so, people continued to fly in. We were never going to eradicate it and the moment the country opened up again, well it's back in big numbers.

What did people think was going to happen when people returned home for Christmas? They were going to isolate? Expecting full compliance on that was beyond naive.

Tenzor07

Windmill100000 wrote: »

Absolutely agree. While we all locked down, and many sacrificed jobs doing so, people continued to fly in. We were never going to eradicate it and the moment the country opened up again, well it's back in big numbers.

What did people think was going to happen when people returned home for Christmas? They were going to isolate? Expecting full compliance on that was beyond naive.

Just wondering if you have the stats that have traced the percentages showing that the arrivals were responsible for say 10% or 50% of viral spread? thanks...

Windmill100000

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Just wondering if you have the stats that have traced the percentages showing that the arrivals were responsible for say 10% or 50% of viral spread? thanks...

Do you mean those that presented with symptoms and had tests or those that did not have symptoms or had mild symptoms and were not tested?

Tenzor07

Windmill100000 wrote: »

Do you mean those that presented with symptoms and had tests or those that did not have symptoms or had mild symptoms and were not tested?

Positive tests traced back to international arrivals in December, referrals thanks.

Uriel.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why do you make up things?

I never said that.

Please edit your post at once.

They've had months to get a system ready, and IT people could build one in next to no time.

And this is where ignorance comes to life.

Who could build one? The HSE has a team of developers to this? I doubt it.

So they get the design and build work outsourced probably going to cost more than 50k... National and EU procurement rules (that everyone wants) exist to provide transparency and value for money for public procurement. That means the development of such a system would have to go to EU tender. That process in itself you're looking at 6 months and that's before any design, development, testing etc takes place.

JeffKenna

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Just wondering if you have the stats that have traced the percentages showing that the arrivals were responsible for say 10% or 50% of viral spread? thanks...

No one has these stats, the track and trace system isn't fit for purpose.

Uriel.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

So when do we realise community suppression won’t help prevent the virus spread in those settings?

Im glad you know more than the WHO and ECDC then who tell us that those vulnerable groups are at increased risk when community transmission is high.
The ****e some people spout.

Uriel.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It got in there when Covid arrived in Ireland.

It’s a highly transmissible virus rampant among vulnerable people in close proximity who require close human contact to carry out the most basic of functions each day.

Its already in those settings

Closing gyms won’t help in those settings

Closing non essential retail won’t help in those settings

It’s too late.

Whatever the cause it’s in those settings

Perhaps an inquest will shine light on what may be mismanagement or poor policies implemented by management

You do realise that outbreaks open and close. And you do realise that just because a nursing home got an outbreak at some point doesn't mean it can't get subsequent outbreaks. You do realise there's a turn over of residents on an ongoing basis?
You do realise that covid doesn't go to nursing home A and say hey I'm coming in here today but once I'm done I won't call back again?

Tenzor07

JeffKenna wrote: »

No one has these stats, the track and trace system isn't fit for purpose.

Ok, so basically peoples assertions that incoming travellers are a major source of the viral spread is just an individual opinion not backed up by the facts.

Uriel.

SusieBlue wrote: »

That didn’t stop Tony from insisting that nursing home visits were safe and ok at the height of the pandemic, shipping covid positive elderly patients back to nursing homes to free up beds, and dropping the ball with supplying them PPE when the planes started coming in from China. It can’t always be someone else’s fault.

Any comments on how the vast majority of hospitalisations are from patients who were hospitalised for other health issues but who contacted covid after they were admitted? We’ve already had several HSE staff confirm on this thread that staff aren’t regularly tested, even if they’re in contact with a patient.
Or the downright negligence of the direct provision centres? There is one just 5 minutes down the road from me that had over 30 cases alone today.
There is just no justifying their ineptitude.

He didn't say nursing home visits were safe and OK.
It wasn't at the height of the pandemic.
Tony doesn't control PPE supply
Discharges from hospitals to care homes is a normal and necessary part of the health system. You can't just pile up hospitals unnecessarily - what would be outcome of that?

Many people, including many experts, believe that visiting should happen in a controlled way at any stage in the pandemic including during outbreaks.

Tenzor07

Uriel. wrote: »

You do realise that outbreaks open and close. And you do realise that just because a nursing home got an outbreak at some point doesn't mean it can't get subsequent outbreaks. You do realise there's a turn over of residents on an ongoing basis?
You do realise that covid doesn't go to nursing home A and say hey I'm coming in here today but once I'm done I won't call back again?

Do you agree then that all the resources of the state being pumped into enforcement of say the "5k travel" limit for instance should instead be put into protecting the nursing homes.... and why are we still talking about this almost 9 months later?

GreeBo

CalamariFritti wrote: »

It makes as much sense as telling us the positive test numbers every night.

Except that's not true.
Knowing the positive numbers might help people to adhere to the lockdown and change their behaviour, thus helping the situation.

How will knowing the vaccinated numbers help the outbreak exactly?

darconio

I wanted to start the new year with some good news, I was trying to find out how many people out of the 10000 doses were vaccinated, but all I can find online is the number of tested positive and the number of hospitalized. I would expect to be given a count, so that we can at least plan that let's say by june 20%-30%-50% of the population is vaccinated, but instead all they are interested is giving us more reasons to be miserable.

Ireland doesn't even appear in the stats, I wouldn't expect to have 350.000 vaccinated as in the UK, but would be too optimistic to have at least 500/1000 people already vaccinated? 25 nursing home will receive the first dose on Monday, and they hope to cover the two-dose vaccine for every nursing home by the end of February :eek:
Really? They hope? 2 months? and what about if one of these homes have an outbreak? which criteria are they using to determine the nursing home having priority? what makes an elderly less important that another? And what about the general population, or "the standard" vulnerable?
I think is time for the government and HSE to start showing a bit of planning and roll out this vaccine on a bigger scale, what they are doing is simply not enough especially since they are playing with the life of thousand elderly and several thousand people forced into unemployment by their reckless policies.

Uriel.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Do you agree then that all the resources of the state being pumped into enforcement of say the "5k travel" limit for instance should instead be put into protecting the nursing homes.... and why are we still talking about this almost 9 months later?

Are state resources not being pumped into protecting nursing homes? It's not a one or the other scenario
It'd be great if enforcement wasn't necessary... That's down to people.

Still talking about what 9 months later? Covid? Do you really need an answer to that?

Stheno

darconio wrote: »

I wanted to start the new year with some good news, I was trying to find out how many people out of the 10000 doses were vaccinated, but all I can find online is the number of tested positive and the number of hospitalized. I would expect to be given a count, so that we can at least plan that let's say by june 20%-30%-50% of the population is vaccinated, but instead all they are interested is giving us more reasons to be miserable.

Ireland doesn't even appear in the stats, I wouldn't expect to have 350.000 vaccinated as in the UK, but would be too optimistic to have at least 500/1000 people already vaccinated? 25 nursing home will receive the first dose on Monday, and they hope to cover the two-dose vaccine for every nursing home by the end of February :eek:
Really? They hope? 2 months? and what about if one of these homes have an outbreak? which criteria are they using to determine the nursing home having priority? what makes an elderly less important that another? And what about the general population, or "the standard" vulnerable?
I think is time for the government and HSE to start showing a bit of planning and roll out this vaccine on a bigger scale, what they are doing is simply not enough especially since they are playing with the life of thousand elderly and several thousand people forced into unemployment by their reckless policies.

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1344980202691158016?s=19

JeffKenna

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Ok, so basically peoples assertions that incoming travellers are a major source of the viral spread is just an individual opinion not backed up by the facts.

The contact tracing forms weren't being used...we had this system in place not fit for purpose. Does that not concern you at all? Why did we block travel from the UK if there was no issue despite there being no data?

GreeBo

thebaz wrote: »

Dr. Tony still saying we are not doing eneogh - Why not get on the job himself and orginise the vaccination program with the same urgency he tells the Government to lockdown and scold the public for not doing eneogh -
Never any good news , just doom doom and yet the rolllout of the vaccinations seams to lack the urgency that would help protect the vulnerable and evertually the public. The HSE should be mass vaccinating the frontline workers and the vulnerable in the coming days and weeks.

Do you also chastise the weatherman for not delivering the news?

JeffKenna

GreeBo wrote: »

Except that's not true.
Knowing the positive numbers might help people to adhere to the lockdown and change their behaviour, thus helping the situation.

How will knowing the vaccinated numbers help the outbreak exactly?

It'll bring some form of accountability to the HSE.

mandrake04

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Ok, so basically peoples assertions that incoming travellers are a major source of the viral spread is just an individual opinion not backed up by the facts.

Well like he said there is no facts, but in liu of such facts you just have to go with common sense would tell you that if you had less root infections from travel you would have much less community spread.

At this stage only an absolute imbecile would argue that travel has no major effect on spread of this virus, sure most countries banned travelers from the UK 2 weeks ago because of fears of transmission through travel of the UK variant... that tells you everything.

Tenzor07

Uriel. wrote: »

He didn't say nursing home visits were safe and OK.
It wasn't at the height of the pandemic.
Tony doesn't control PPE supply
Discharges from hospitals to care homes is a normal and necessary part of the health system. You can't just pile up hospitals unnecessarily - what would be outcome of that?
Many people, including many experts, believe that visiting should happen in a controlled way at any stage in the pandemic including during outbreaks.

From the end of February the Nursing homes raised concerns about lack of PPE, any queries were responding to by saying "they were following the advice of the Chief Medical Officer Dr Tony Holohan and NPHET." This lead to nursing home staff having to go to DIY stores and purchase painters overalls and supplies..

"Tony doesn't control PPE"... wow... ok, he's the chair or head of NPHET a committee which leads the country in its response to health crises, if they don't control the distribution of PPE to healthcare facilities who does?

Who's responsible for discharging elderly patients from hospitals to nursing homes? Not Tony eh? https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0525/1140462-nursing-homes/

Uriel.

darconio wrote: »

I wanted to start the new year with some good news, I was trying to find out how many people out of the 10000 doses were vaccinated, but all I can find online is the number of tested positive and the number of hospitalized. I would expect to be given a count, so that we can at least plan that let's say by june 20%-30%-50% of the population is vaccinated, but instead all they are interested is giving us more reasons to be miserable.

Ireland doesn't even appear in the stats, I wouldn't expect to have 350.000 vaccinated as in the UK, but would be too optimistic to have at least 500/1000 people already vaccinated? 25 nursing home will receive the first dose on Monday, and they hope to cover the two-dose vaccine for every nursing home by the end of February :eek:
Really? They hope? 2 months? and what about if one of these homes have an outbreak? which criteria are they using to determine the nursing home having priority? what makes an elderly less important that another? And what about the general population, or "the standard" vulnerable?
I think is time for the government and HSE to start showing a bit of planning and roll out this vaccine on a bigger scale, what they are doing is simply not enough especially since they are playing with the life of thousand elderly and several thousand people forced into unemployment by their reckless policies.

One of the major issues with care homes is capacity and informed consent.
It's extremely complex.
Plus this article gives a good overview of the complex operational and logistical issues associated with the Pfizer vaccine.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/operation-vaccination-hses-plan-for-care-home-residents-39902805.html

Remember practically all of the care homes are individual private entities so getting them on board to play their part in the roll out adds further to the complexity.

Tenzor07

mandrake04 wrote: »

Well like he said there is no facts, but in liu of such facts you just have to go with common sense would tell you that if you had less root infections from travel you would have much less community spread.

At this stage only an absolute imbecile would argue that travel has no major effect on spread of this virus, sure most countries banned travelers from the UK 2 weeks ago because of fears of transmission through travel of the UK variant... that tells you everything.

Let's decide national policy based on "Common sense?"
Why can't we decide to follow a strategy based on things like science, evidence and fact, surely that will save more lives and lead to a better outcome rather than deciding on a guess?

JeffKenna

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Let's decide national policy based on "Common sense?"
Why can't we decide to follow a strategy based on things like science, evidence and fact, surely that will save more lives and lead to a better outcome rather than deciding on a guess?

We did decide it on common sense, we closed the boarders to the UK. You saying that decision was incorrect?

Edit - we can't decide the policy on fact as the systems in place to provide any evidence or fact don't work!

GreeBo

JeffKenna wrote: »

It'll bring some form of accountability to the HSE.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they should never have those numbers it that they shouldn't be tracking then internally, but a couple of days into the rollout is going to make zero difference to anything.
I'm confident that they have these numbers in each centre and just haven't collated them yet.

The fact that you are basically accusing them off hiding incompetence without anything to back it up shows where you are coming from. You are just looking for something to blame.

Tenzor07

Uriel. wrote: »

Remember practically all of the care homes are individual private entities so getting them on board to play their part in the roll out adds further to the complexity.

This is a national emergency, there's no time to "get them onboard to play the part".... the homes need to be nationalised by the state and given emergency resources to cope, not be left to their own devices and still have people discuss them like this 8 months into this crisis...