Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Tenzor07

JeffKenna wrote: »

We did decide it on common sense, we closed the boarders to the UK. You saying that decision was incorrect?

Wasn't that a political decision based on a response to the UK warning of a new strain of the virus... are the borders closed? I see flights are ferries still moving between UK and Ireland plus trucks and cars crossing to and from Northern Ireland..

AndrewJRenko

darconio wrote: »

I wanted to start the new year with some good news, I was trying to find out how many people out of the 10000 doses were vaccinated, but all I can find online is the number of tested positive and the number of hospitalized. I would expect to be given a count, so that we can at least plan that let's say by june 20%-30%-50% of the population is vaccinated, but instead all they are interested is giving us more reasons to be miserable.

Ireland doesn't even appear in the stats, I wouldn't expect to have 350.000 vaccinated as in the UK, but would be too optimistic to have at least 500/1000 people already vaccinated? 25 nursing home will receive the first dose on Monday, and they hope to cover the two-dose vaccine for every nursing home by the end of February :eek:
Really? They hope? 2 months? and what about if one of these homes have an outbreak? which criteria are they using to determine the nursing home having priority? what makes an elderly less important that another? And what about the general population, or "the standard" vulnerable?
I think is time for the government and HSE to start showing a bit of planning and roll out this vaccine on a bigger scale, what they are doing is simply not enough especially since they are playing with the life of thousand elderly and several thousand people forced into unemployment by their reckless policies.

https://twitter.com/Antcon7062/status/1344660050711891978

Uriel.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

From the end of February the Nursing homes raised concerns about lack of PPE, any queries were responding to by saying "they were following the advice of the Chief Medical Officer Dr Tony Holohan and NPHET." This lead to nursing home staff having to go to DIY stores and purchase painters overalls and supplies..

"Tony doesn't control PPE"... wow... ok, he's the chair or head of NPHET a committee which leads the country in its response to health crises, if they don't control the distribution of PPE to healthcare facilities who does?

Who's responsible for discharging elderly patients from hospitals to nursing homes? Not Tony eh? https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0525/1140462-nursing-homes/

Individual nursing homes are responsible for providing PPE to their staff and protecting the residents under their care. When they failed to do that the State stepped in (as did the taxpayer). The logistics of procuring and delivering PPE rests with the HSE not NPHET (I don't think you understand the difference between the various players tbh) and certainly not Tony.

Discharges from hospitals to nursing homes is managed by the hospital discharge team and the nursing homes themselves. As I already said, you can't fill up the hospitals with people for no reason. The consequences for Covid and non covid care would be dire. Discharges are necessary for functioning health system.

Tonnes of guidance exists to mitigate the risks.

Uriel.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

This is a national emergency, there's no time to "get them onboard to play the part".... the homes need to be nationalised by the state and given emergency resources to cope, not be left to their own devices and still have people discuss them like this 8 months into this crisis...

The state has given the private nursing homes hundreds of millions of tax payers money this year directly and indirectly, on top of the serious amount of base funding they already get from the State.

I agree with moving away from the private model and there's a need to take care of vulnerable groups out of the hands of for profit enterprises, but you can't just switch to do that. Nationalising 500 individual health care services is a huge and complex undertaking which would cost billions probably and has all manner of legal complexities associated with them. Its not doable and I'd say not particularly beneficial either.

AndrewJRenko

Tenzor07 wrote: »

This is a national emergency, there's no time to "get them onboard to play the part".... the homes need to be nationalised by the state and given emergency resources to cope, not be left to their own devices and still have people discuss them like this 8 months into this crisis...

So the nursing home owners get to make all the profits in the good years, and when times get tough, they put the State on the hook for all costs and losses - it's the capitalist wet dream, isn't it?

There's also the little matter of the constitutional right to private property that might be a barrier to nationalisation.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

From the end of February the Nursing homes raised concerns about lack of PPE, any queries were responding to by saying "they were following the advice of the Chief Medical Officer Dr Tony Holohan and NPHET." This lead to nursing home staff having to go to DIY stores and purchase painters overalls and supplies..

"Tony doesn't control PPE"... wow... ok, he's the chair or head of NPHET a committee which leads the country in its response to health crises, if they don't control the distribution of PPE to healthcare facilities who does?

Who's responsible for discharging elderly patients from hospitals to nursing homes? Not Tony eh? https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0525/1140462-nursing-homes/

Again, why would it be down to Tony to rescue private businesses? Where was their contingency planning for infection control?

Windmill100000

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Wasn't that a political decision based on a response to the UK warning of a new strain of the virus... are the borders closed? I see flights are ferries still moving between UK and Ireland plus trucks and cars crossing to and from Northern Ireland..

People were advised to not travel to Ireland for Christmas before the emergence of the new strain.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/is-it-safe-to-fly-home-for-christmas-here-s-what-experts-say-1.4424430%3fmode=amp

JeffKenna

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Wasn't that a political decision based on a response to the UK warning of a new strain of the virus... are the borders closed? I see flights are ferries still moving between UK and Ireland plus trucks and cars crossing to and from Northern Ireland..

But where was the data to back the decision up?

I have no idea, I presume the flights are operating again.

JeffKenna

GreeBo wrote: »

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they should never have those numbers it that they shouldn't be tracking then internally, but a couple of days into the rollout is going to make zero difference to anything.
I'm confident that they have these numbers in each centre and just haven't collated them yet.

The fact that you are basically accusing them off hiding incompetence without anything to back it up shows where you are coming from. You are just looking for something to blame.

What gets measured gets done.

AndrewJRenko

JeffKenna wrote: »

What gets measured gets done.

Ah, good old business consultant speak - the health service can't get enough of it. Going forward, let's pick off the low hanging fruit and run it up the flagpole to see who salutes it?

Not sure that consultancy expertise is working out too well for the Minister these days.

Tenzor07

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So the nursing home owners get to make all the profits in the good years, and when times get tough, they put the State on the hook for all costs and losses - it's the capitalist wet dream, isn't it?

There's also the little matter of the constitutional right to private property that might be a barrier to nationalisation.



Again, why would it be down to Tony to rescue private businesses? Where was their contingency planning for infection control?

You're barking up the wrong tree here and holding "Tony" as some individual, he's not, he's the public face of a powerful committee with massive influence on political decisions and in charge of the states response to a health crisis..

I don't care about whether you think private business is the bad guy or not, I only care about the residents, life time tax payers and contributors to society who deserve protection.

JeffKenna

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Ah, good old business consultant speak - the health service can't get enough of it. Going forward, let's pick off the low hanging fruit and run it up the flagpole to see who salutes it?

Not sure that consultancy expertise is working out too well for the Minister these days.

That's exactly the attitude that's toxic in the HSE, there has to be some openness to accountability.

Windmill100000

Tenzor07 wrote: »

You're barking up the wrong tree here and holding "Tony" as some individual, he's not, he's the public face of a powerful committee with massive influence on political decisions and in charge of the states response to a health crisis..

I don't care about whether you think private business is the bad guy or not, I only care about the residents, life time tax payers and contributors to society who deserve protection.

I think most of us care about the residents. That's a given.

Penfailed

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do we really need these sort of tired one liners constantly?

Do we really need these sort of tired one liners constantly?

the kelt

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Antcon7062/status/1344660050711891978

That’s brilliant news and also the fact they have done 1800 already.

I wonder did anyone miss out on a vaccination or get burnt out by giving us those numbers? Hope not.

growleaves

Lest We Forget: Life is not Non-Death

There is only one thing that is life or death: survival; bare, continued existence. And it is to survival we have been oriented this year, everything else – everything of conviviality – neglected.

And not just neglected – demonized. The rituals of life reframed, as a threat to continued existence. Explicitly a threat: the proximity of conviviality is linked to the spread of the virus. And implicitly a threat, a distraction from the project at hand.

When it is life or death, anything not directly relevant becomes intolerable. Hence the creep this year to prohibition – South Africa has just banned the sale of alcohol, Scotland would do so if it dared. Hence the suspension of religious gatherings in massive airy cathedrals. Hence the erasure of singing in schools. Hence all these spurious assaults on conviviality. Living is vicious indulgence once life becomes virtuous survival.

When it is life or death, the arts of life are lined up for censure on the side of death, and what is called ‘life’ is simply non-death, a technical survival programme.

What’s the big deal? – the Covid crew’s refrain. Let’s sort survival first; plenty of time afterwards for the arts of life to return.

But it is not like that. The habits of life, once broken, do not return easily and may not return at all. We trusted to them like we trust in the fidelity of a life-partner. Indeed, we hardly knew they were there – which of us has ever rejoiced in our freedom to meet whomever we choose, to travel wherever we wish, to leave home whenever we see fit? Which of us has noticed that we were ‘free’ to celebrate Christmas, to invite friends for a meal, to watch football down the pub? The arts of life are, by their nature, endemic. Their hold upon us is due to our trust in them. When they are suspended for purposes of survival, we may take them back again when given the chance, but some will be lost forever and the charms of others may never revive.

Most of the Covid restrictions were inconceivable this time last year. Now they have been made real, they can never be inconceivable again.

Edit: Link fixed

Penfailed

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Ok, so basically peoples assertions that incoming travellers are a major source of the viral spread is just an individual opinion not backed up by the facts.

Incoming travellers are responsible for bringing the virus to the island. That's indisputable.

Penfailed

Uriel. wrote: »

One of the major issues with care homes is capacity and informed consent.
It's extremely complex.
Plus this article gives a good overview of the complex operational and logistical issues associated with the Pfizer vaccine.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/operation-vaccination-hses-plan-for-care-home-residents-39902805.html

Remember practically all of the care homes are individual private entities so getting them on board to play their part in the roll out adds further to the complexity.

...but people on Boards know better about how to manage a mass vaccination rollout.

How's about that for a one-liner?

growleaves

Knowing Right From Wrong

On November 25, a news story aired depicting a heavily garbed doctor shining a laryngoscope into the camera and threatening, “I hope, that the last moments of your life don’t look like this, because, this is what you’ll see at the end of your life" if everyone doesn't don’t start wearing masks, practice social distancing and wash hands frequently. I don’t want to be the last person that looks in your frightened eyes." He went on to add, “I promise you, this is what your mother, or your father, or your children, when they get Covid disease, will see at the end of their life."

According to ethical principles, as outlined by Professor Guttman, however, it was extremely problematic. As she said, the morality of conduct when communicating health information especially creates ethical issues when techniques, such as highly emotional appeals, exaggerations, omissions, provocative tactics or the use of children, are applied. This goes for medical and communication professionals and any official position entrusted by the public to know the facts and act in their best interests.

The most important obligation when one aims to better people's health, when it comes to ethical principles, is to avoid doing harm. "This moral obligation is considered by some ethicists as the foremost ethical maxim for healthcare providers since the days of Hippocrates," she wrote. When a communication might directly or indirectly harm people, whether on a physiological, psychological, social or cultural level − such as people becoming especially anxious − this falls under violating the axiom, "do no harm."

Another moral imperative is respecting people's intrinsic right to autonomy and the right to make their own decisions on matters that affect them, she said. "Ethical issues associated with respect for autonomy and privacy typically concern the use of persuasive arguments that might be considered manipulative, or the use of graphic material such as mutilated bodies or human suffering that might offend people or expose them to issues or sights to which they do not want to be exposed."

drunkmonkey

It's all a hoax played out on numbers, we never test for the flu and most people are presenting with flu like symptoms.
If you want to end this pandemic stop going for a test. It's not even less deadly than the flu it's way less deadly

2019, 4 kids under 12 died from the flu.
2020 no dead kids, no flu

I don't know about the rest of you but the numbers are suggesting this whole thing is bull**** based on a virus that still isn't isolated. It's nonsense go have your best life.

Penfailed

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's all a hoax played out on numbers, we never test for the flu and most people are presenting with flu like symptoms.
If you want to end this pandemic stop going for a test. It's not even less deadly than the flu it's way less deadly

2019, 4 kids under 12 died from the flu.
2020 no dead kids, no flu

I don't know about the rest of you but the numbers are suggesting this whole thing is bull**** based on a virus that still isn't isolated. It's nonsense go have your best life.

*facepalm*

"It's all a hoax..."

"...it's way less deadly [than the flu]"

"It's nonsense..."

Wow.

storker

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's all a hoax played out on numbers, we never test for the flu and most people are presenting with flu like symptoms.
If you want to end this pandemic stop going for a test. It's not even less deadly than the flu it's way less deadly

2019, 4 kids under 12 died from the flu.
2020 no dead kids, no flu

Wow. It's almost as if they were both viruses and steps taken to inhibit one would have a similar effect on the other, that one was more contagious that the other, and there was a vaccine for one and not the other. Oh, wait...

I don't know about the rest of you but the numbers are suggesting this whole thing is bull**** based on a virus that still isn't isolated. It's nonsense go have your best life.

U.S. Flu deaths 2019/2020: 24,000 - 62,000

U.S. Flu deaths 2018-2019: 34,200

U.S. COVID deaths 2020: 341,000

Ireland Flu deaths 2017-2018: 222

Ireland COVID-19 deaths 2020: 2,237

There's BS here alright. The same BS that has been stinking out this thread since before the summer. :rolleyes:

Irish Steve

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's all a hoax played out on numbers, we never test for the flu and most people are presenting with flu like symptoms.
If you want to end this pandemic stop going for a test. It's not even less deadly than the flu it's way less deadly

2019, 4 kids under 12 died from the flu.
2020 no dead kids, no flu

I don't know about the rest of you but the numbers are suggesting this whole thing is bull**** based on a virus that still isn't isolated. It's nonsense go have your best life.

Here's a suggestion for you. Go volunteer to help out in a local hospital that's treating Covid patients, and tell them that as it's a hoax, you don't want any PPE, or vaccine, which will save them a fortune. Let us know how that works out for you.

drunkmonkey

storker wrote: »

Wow. It's almost as if they were both viruses and steps taken to inhibit one would have a similar effect on the other, that one was more contagious that the other, and there was a vaccine for one and not the other. Oh, wait...



U.S. Flu deaths 2019/2020: 24,000 - 62,000

U.S. Flu deaths 2018-2019: 34,200

U.S. COVID deaths 2020: 341,000

Ireland Flu deaths 2017-2018: 222

Ireland COVID-19 deaths 2020: 2,237

There's BS here alright. The same BS that has been stinking out this thread since before the summer. :rolleyes:

If masks work then when the need for lockdown, if lockdown workn then why do we need masks.

The flu vaccine stopped working in 17/18, take your head out of your hole and observe what's really happening.

storker

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If masks work then when the need for lockdown, if lockdown workn then why do we need masks.

The flu vaccine stopped working in 17/18, take your head out of your hole and observe what's really happening.

Sorry, if you want to play conspiracy theory whack-a-mole there's a forum for that. Have fun...

Solar2021

storker wrote: »

Wow. It's almost as if they were both viruses and steps taken to inhibit one would have a similar effect on the other, that one was more contagious that the other, and there was a vaccine for one and not the other. Oh, wait...



U.S. Flu deaths 2019/2020: 24,000 - 62,000

U.S. Flu deaths 2018-2019: 34,200

U.S. COVID deaths 2020: 341,000

Ireland Flu deaths 2017-2018: 222

Ireland COVID-19 deaths 2020: 2,237

There's BS here alright. The same BS that has been stinking out this thread since before the summer. :rolleyes:

To be fair we don't test for the flu like we do Covid

Alot of death certs are classed as pneumonia anyway, even if started as a flu and complications arised causing pneumonia

Pneumonia and Flu death figures should be combined in that comparison

Just off the phone to my uncle in Dublin, said a 17 year old neighbour did himself in. Community is devastated. These people deserve to be remembered, equally as important as those who passed from Covid complications. Damage wrought on mental health of extended lockdowns throughout Ireland is incalculable, let's not sweep it under the carpet.

drunkmonkey

storker wrote: »

Sorry, if you want to play conspiracy theory whack-a-mole there's a forum for that. Have fun...

Yea we tried that, turns out the ones wearing tinfoil hats aren't when you suspect.

GreeBo

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's all a hoax played out on numbers, we never test for the flu and most people are presenting with flu like symptoms.
If you want to end this pandemic stop going for a test. It's not even less deadly than the flu it's way less deadly

2019, 4 kids under 12 died from the flu.
2020 no dead kids, no flu

I don't know about the rest of you but the numbers are suggesting this whole thing is bull**** based on a virus that still isn't isolated. It's nonsense go have your best life.

Go home monkey, you are drunk.

FintanMcluskey

2020 has been the worst year for excess deaths in the Uk since 2008.

Shocking stuff

The 2008 horror was long ingrained in the memory of everyone

drunkmonkey

GreeBo wrote: »

Go home monkey, you are drunk.

Show me anywhere in the world that's manager to isolate this virus and I'll buy into the bull**** it even exists.