Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

JRant

Windmill100000 wrote: »

Level 6: Stay home and do not look out windows.

Seriously, I agree with you. He's off the scale now. Where can he go from here?

Schools shut till the summer. Construction halted for 2/3 months. Yet, they still won't ban flights or have strict quarantine for people arriving into the country and I'd include people from the North in that.

normanoffside

KaneToad wrote: »

What do you blame it on?

Honestly, the exaggerated level of concerns, restrictions and scaremongering when virus levels were low have had a knock on effect.

A bit like the boy who cried wolf, people stopped listening and when we got a bit of freedom in the past few weeks (in the middle of winter) that all had a knock on effect.

FintanMcluskey

normanoffside wrote: »

Honestly, the exaggerated level of concerns, restrictions and scaremongering when virus levels were low have had a knock on effect.

A bit like the boy who cried wolf, people stopped listening and when we got a bit of freedom in the past few weeks (in the middle of winter) that all had a knock on effect.

I am honestly convinced this is one the reasons.

Irish media was saturated with Covid information when cases were at a rate of about 20 cases a day last Summer when Europe had returned to normal.

People have become desensitised to all the information.

CruelSummer

I think Ireland should form an all party, national Government to get through this crisis. I see the pathetic tweets from Paddy Cosgrave and Luke Ming tonight trying to politically point score their way through this, no one needs this at the present time. A new national strategy should be agreed and voted on by all parties in the Dáil. This might help Government with their messaging.

I certainly have not been a supporter of the prolonged negativity since March and getting open for the summer by the skin of our teeth. It has caused people to simply not believe the health authorities when they really need them to listen.
Have been hearing of outbreaks due to unofficial ‘pubs’ having ‘gatherings’ over the Christmas. Having George Lee & the zero Covid Professor group on as the grim reapers for months on end has backfired badly.

Uriel.

SusieBlue wrote: »

The state isn’t being blamed for the lack of PPE, the state is being blamed for not prioritising or even considering nursing homes when they allocated said PPE.

The HSE took over the entire manufacturing supply chain, knowing that this would mean private nursing homes would be left exposed, and then did nothing to help them.
The outbreaks in nursing homes is responsible for the majority of the deaths since all this started.
Perhaps the death rate would not have been so high if they had been provided with PPE when it was made available, visitors had been banned when the virus was rampant, and hospitals hadn’t discharged covid positive patients back to care homes in order for free up beds for a surge that never came.
No one else is responsible for that apart from the HSE/the state, and I’m quite sure the inevitable enquiry will prove as much in a few years.
They completely dropped the ball when it came to protecting our most vulnerable.

The HSE didn't take over the entire supply chain.
If you have any evidence of this please provide it.
The HSE has completely bailed the private nursing homes out.
The available PPE was prioritised towards hospital services.
In February and into early March there was no international evidence or understanding of the impact of covid on older persons/Nursing homes. The world was watching the unfolding crisis in Italian hospitals and responded accordingly. Its very easy to take the knowledge, including scientific knowledge we have now and apply it retrospectively to February and March.

There is no evidence of the impact of visitors to nursing homes in context of transmission. Its widely accepted that the primary risk is staff carrying in the virus. But either way, legally, the only person that can restrict visiting is the person running the nursing home.

Packing old people unnecessarily into hospitals would not have provided a happy outcome for anyone.

Uriel.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Two thirds of the deaths in December were due to nursing home and hospital outbreaks. We completely failed to even try put actions in place to stop that from happening.

The delay in reporting cases is because the IT system is outdated and has failed.

Contact tracing has failed.

Vaccines have been left sitting in freezers and our leaders “Don’t know” when asked why we hadn’t started vaccinating.

The longest/harshest restrictions in Europe hasn’t worked well at all.

Our leaders have failed us again and again. And that’s without even getting into the economy and other health issues.

You say we completely failed to put any actions in place to stop nursing homes outbreaks?
The world has failed then.
As all of the international evidence shows. When case rates are high care homes are going to be a escalated risk. That's the reality. The speed of spread with the care home effectively then done to good management and Mitigation, including infection control.

alentejo

I fear that Tony will have us locked down till May.

Jank1

Now with the vaccine here the panic should very much be winding down but instead the fear porn has been ramped up to 11 recently with insane suggestions such as closing down schools again.

JRant

Jank1 wrote: »

Now with the vaccine here the panic should very much be winding down but instead the fear porn has been ramped up to 11 recently with insane suggestions such as closing down schools again.

It's not only a suggestion but all the smart money is on schools being shutdown for a month or two now. Dr Tony wants Level 5+ which means the schools must close. But don't think for one second that they'll stop 10's of thousands piling down the M1 come Monday morning.

alentejo

alentejo wrote: »

I fear that Tony will have us locked down till May.

Personally, I’m braced to be locked down until the week after Easter. That’s what I’m mentally gearing up for

Micky 32

Deleted User wrote: »

Personally, I’m braced to be locked down until the week after Easter. That’s what I’m mentally gearing up for

At this stage i’d say the lockdown will last until the vaccines start to take effect.

SusieBlue

Uriel. wrote: »

The HSE didn't take over the entire supply chain.
If you have any evidence of this please provide it.
The HSE has completely bailed the private nursing homes out.
The available PPE was prioritised towards hospital services.
In February and into early March there was no international evidence or understanding of the impact of covid on older persons/Nursing homes. The world was watching the unfolding crisis in Italian hospitals and responded accordingly. Its very easy to take the knowledge, including scientific knowledge we have now and apply it retrospectively to February and March.

There is no evidence of the impact of visitors to nursing homes in context of transmission. Its widely accepted that the primary risk is staff carrying in the virus. But either way, legally, the only person that can restrict visiting is the person running the nursing home.

Packing old people unnecessarily into hospitals would not have provided a happy outcome for anyone.

I posted the evidence a few pages ago, you must have missed it so I’ll post it again:

https://www.thejournal.ie/nursing-homes-ireland-ppe-5107840-May2020/

“Suppliers have confirmed to NHI and members that they are not in a position to supply as they state that they are supplying all such products exclusively to HSE at this time,” he said.

The HSE exclusively took over all supply chains, leaving the the nursing homes completely exposed and unable to access PPE of their own accord.
As per the above link they contacted the government stating their concerns as far back as February, but their requests fell on deaf ears.
To sum it up, they hoarded all supplies for themselves & then ignored the cries for support and help from the NHI.
They were completely negligent in that regard.

Elderly people are more vulnerable to pretty much everything.
Even that much was clear back in the early days of the pandemic because it’s common sense.
You might be eager to relieve the government of any responsibility but they did have a responsibility to that sector and to those vulnerable people, to keep them safe. They failed.

We knew the illness was highly infectious and that it could possibly be transmitted by asymptomatic carriers from the start, and yet we still allowed all of this to happen.
Expecting our frontline workers to take care of our most vulnerable citizens with nothing more than a pair of €1.50 goggles from a hardware store to protect both parties is indefensible.

I have to say your propensity for excusing the downright negligence the government and HSE have shown to this sector is absolutely shocking, particularly when it’s widely accepted by even the most dedicated lockdown supporters that they royally screwed up their management of it.

JRant

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Personally, I’m braced to be locked down until the week after Easter. That’s what I’m mentally gearing up for

Yep, that's the smart thing to do. I'm doing the same myself. There's no point in thinking this is for 6 weeks only. I really do feel for all those people out of work now indefinitely. What must they be thinking at this time of the year with bills piling in on top of them.

FintanMcluskey

JRant wrote: »

Yep, that's the smart thing to do. I'm doing the same myself. There's no point in thinking this is for 6 weeks only. I really do feel for all those people out of work now indefinitely. What must they be thinking at this time of the year with bills piling in on top of them.

I’m mentally prepared until June

Which means posting **** every day for 6 months on here

Micky 32

Micky 32 wrote: »

At this stage i’d say the lockdown will last until the vaccines start to take effect.

For sure there’ll be some kind of lockdown until vaccines are showing to be having an effect. I can live quite happily with a long term level 3, then 2, until later the year. It’s the level 5 that I am preparing myself to be under until Easter

alentejo

Deleted User wrote: »

For sure there’ll be some kind of lockdown until vaccines are showing to be having an effect. I can live quite happily with a long term level 3, then 2, until later the year. It’s the level 5 that I am preparing myself to be under until Easter

I really hope they tweak the 5k rule. A county or 20k rule if long term. The 5 k rule is the one I really hate

GreeBo

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Where did you see the 2m additional deaths?

I was using perspective about starvation deaths.

I know many virtue signallers couldn’t give 2 hoots about children starving in the 3rd world.

It does however indicate Covid is a 1st world illness

1.83m deaths so far from covid, what number do you think it is?

Great... Perspective... Compare starvation to dehydration... Do we ignore starvation now? Why would you ignore or discount covid deaths?
First world problem? Virtue signallers?

GreeBo

LAZYIRISH wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/eight-more-people-die-with-flu-26618389.html

35 deaths???

alentejo

alentejo wrote: »

I really hope they tweak the 5k rule. A county or 20k rule if long term. The 5 k rule is the one I really hate

Yes, I agree. The travel limits are the worst part of this. that I can’t get out surfing in Sligo is killing me. I hope so much that I’ll be able to drive out there after Easter.

Uriel.

SusieBlue wrote: »

I posted the evidence a few pages ago, you must have missed it so I’ll post it again:

https://www.thejournal.ie/nursing-homes-ireland-ppe-5107840-May2020/



The HSE exclusively took over all supply chains, leaving the the nursing homes completely exposed and unable to access PPE of their own accord.
As per the above link they contacted the government stating their concerns as far back as February, but their requests fell on deaf ears.
To sum it up, they hoarded all supplies for themselves & then ignored the cries for support and help from the NHI.
They were completely negligent in that regard.

Elderly people are more vulnerable to pretty much everything.
Even that much was clear back in the early days of the pandemic because it’s common sense.
You might be eager to relieve the government of any responsibility but they did have a responsibility to that sector and to those vulnerable people, to keep them safe. They failed.

We knew the illness was highly infectious and that it could possibly be transmitted by asymptomatic carriers from the start, and yet we still allowed all of this to happen.
Expecting our frontline workers to take care of our most vulnerable citizens with nothing more than a pair of €1.50 goggles from a hardware store to protect both parties is indefensible.

I have to say your propensity for excusing the downright negligence the government and HSE have shown to this sector is absolutely shocking, particularly when it’s widely accepted by even the most dedicated lockdown supporters that they royally screwed up their management of it.

Actually my issue is not to absolve the government of anything. But I'm completely amazed at how much absolution is provided to the service providers. NHI, the commercial lobby organisation for private providers said something so it must be true? Because they'd have no reason to pass the book to the State at all. Indeed its all the state's fault and no responsibility for the providers that get over a 1,000 a week for every resident they care for. If they struggled to get PPE why weren't NHI working with all 450 private nursing homes pooling their resources and getting their own PPE?

On the asymptomatic transmission the first cases weren't reported in scientific journals until well into the pandemic, so you're wrong there. Again, as I say, retrospective application of subsequent knowledge.

FintanMcluskey

GreeBo wrote: »

1.83m deaths so far from covid, what number do you think it is?

1.83m covid deaths does not mean excess deaths.

Look at the age and location of many of those deaths

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, I agree. The travel limits are the worst part of this. that I can’t get out surfing in Sligo is killing me. I hope so much that I’ll be able to drive out there after Easter.

It's "killing you" that you can't surf?

SusieBlue

Uriel. wrote: »

Actually my issue is not to absolve the government of anything. But I'm completely amazed at how much absolution is provided to the service providers. NHI, the commercial lobby organisation for private providers said something so it must be true? Because they'd have no reason to pass the book to the State at all. Indeed its all the state's fault and no responsibility for the providers that get over a 1,000 a week for every resident they care for. If they struggled to get PPE why weren't NHI working with all 450 private nursing homes pooling their resources and getting their own PPE?

On the asymptomatic transmission the first cases weren't reported in scientific journals until well into the pandemic, so you're wrong there. Again, as I say, retrospective application of subsequent knowledge.

Because there was a worldwide shortage, they couldn’t obtain it because our government (and indeed every other government in the world) was taking over supply chains to ensure that private businesses and homes wouldn’t stockpile it ( a la toilet roll & hand sanitiser) so that there would be adequate supply for the frontline, where it was needed most.
The frontline includes hospitals and all their staff, gardaí, supermarkets, pharmacies, nursing homes, paramedics, and other such essential services.

They then failed to include the nursing homes in the initial or even subsequent stages of distribution of said PPE meaning the staff & residents were completely exposed.
How many times does it have to be explained? Do you not remember the stories of people trying to stockpile pretty much everything back in March?
That’s why the governments had to intervene.
That’s why they couldn’t buy it themselves and that’s why it’s pretty disgraceful that the government didn’t help them of their own accord or when they outright asked for it.

For someone who claims not to be making excuses for them you sure are doing a good job of defending them from every angle possible.

GreeBo

normanoffside wrote: »

Honestly, the exaggerated level of concerns, restrictions and scaremongering when virus levels were low have had a knock on effect.

A bit like the boy who cried wolf, people stopped listening and when we got a bit of freedom in the past few weeks (in the middle of winter) that all had a knock on effect.

So you blame the guy who kept telling us, even when numbers were low, that if we didn't follow the advice numbers would climb and lockdown would return?

What did you want him exactly to say in June for example?
What could be have said that wasn't negative and wouldn't have caused the current outbreak earlier?

He literally kept telling us that this would happen and now you blame him when it happens? It boggles the mind.
I hope you warmed up before those mental gymnastics.

Uriel.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Because there was a worldwide shortage, they couldn’t obtain it because our government (and indeed every other government in the world) was taking over supply chains to ensure that private businesses and homes wouldn’t stockpile it ( a la toilet roll & hand sanitiser) so that there would be adequate supply for the frontline, where it was needed most.
The frontline includes hospitals and all their staff, gardaí, supermarkets, pharmacies, nursing homes, paramedics, and other such essential services.

They then failed to include the nursing homes in the initial or even subsequent stages of distribution of said PPE meaning the staff & residents were completely exposed.
How many times does it have to be explained? Do you not remember the stories of people trying to stockpile pretty much everything back in March?
That’s why the governments had to intervene.
That’s why they couldn’t buy it themselves and that’s why it’s pretty disgraceful that the government didn’t help them of their own accord or when they outright asked for it.

For someone who claims not to be making excuses for them you sure are doing a good job of defending them from every angle possible.

Yes it's terrible. The private providers said they did everything they could themselves. But needed more help from the government and it didn't come according to them. I fully believe what they say. Why would they lie or exaggerate things.

GreeBo

SusieBlue wrote: »

Because there was a worldwide shortage, they couldn’t obtain it because our government (and indeed every other government in the world) was taking over supply chains to ensure that private businesses and homes wouldn’t stockpile it ( a la toilet roll & hand sanitiser) so that there would be adequate supply for the frontline, where it was needed most.
The frontline includes hospitals and all their staff, gardaí, supermarkets, pharmacies, nursing homes, paramedics, and other such essential services.

They then failed to include the nursing homes in the initial or even subsequent stages of distribution of said PPE meaning the staff & residents were completely exposed.
How many times does it have to be explained? Do you not remember the stories of people trying to stockpile pretty much everything back in March?
That’s why the governments had to intervene.
That’s why they couldn’t buy it themselves and that’s why it’s pretty disgraceful that the government didn’t help them of their own accord or when they outright asked for it.

For someone who claims not to be making excuses for them you sure are doing a good job of defending them from every angle possible.

So take it from hospitals full of sick and old people to give it to care homes full of well old people?

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

It's "killing you" that you can't surf?

Jesus. You know what I mean. Is that really necessary?

SusieBlue

GreeBo wrote: »

So take it from hospitals full of sick and old people to give it to care homes full of well old people?

Maybe distribute supplies a bit more evenly instead of leaving one sector with absolutely nothing and no way of protecting itself during a worldwide pandemic?
Do you really think that’s an acceptable standard?

Care home residents are there typically there because they are either so elderly they cannot look after themselves, or they have underlying conditions which mean they cannot look after themselves.
Hence as soon as the virus ripped through those settings, many residents ended up dying.
To date the vast majority of coronavirus deaths occurred in these homes and I don’t think it’s a contrary opinion to think they should have been taken better care of and given more consideration rather than being left completely exposed.

FintanMcluskey

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus. You know what I mean. Is that really necessary?

Of course it’s not but seriously why is outdoor activities outlawed?

Surely nothing is safer than any outdoor activities?

Uriel.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Maybe distribute supplies a bit more evenly instead of leaving one sector with absolutely nothing and no way of protecting itself during a worldwide pandemic?
Do you really think that’s an acceptable standard?

Care home residents are there typically there because they are either so elderly they cannot look after themselves, or they have underlying conditions which mean they cannot look after themselves.
Hence as soon as the virus ripped through those settings, many residents ended up dying.
To date the vast majority of coronavirus deaths occurred in these homes and I don’t think it’s a contrary opinion to think they should have been taken better care of and given more consideration rather than being left completely exposed.

But the point is in all of this, is that you are saying the sector wasn't supported on the basis of "evidence" provided by the commercial representative body of that sector.

It was mentioned in the Dail in June that at time about 27m euro of PPE had been given to nursing homes up to that point, with deliveries happening as early as the beginning of March.