Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

SusieBlue

Uriel. wrote: »

But the point is in all of this, is that you are saying the sector wasn't supported on the basis of "evidence" provided by the commercial representative body of that sector.

It was mentioned in the Dail in June that at time about 27m euro of PPE had been given to nursing homes up to that point, with deliveries happening as early as the beginning of March.

So you take issue with me believing the NHI and the various media reports from March - June that nursing homes were under resourced, but believe the government line blindly with no question. Right. It’s not like they’d have any motivation to lie at all.

normanoffside

GreeBo wrote: »

So you blame the guy who kept telling us, even when numbers were low, that if we didn't follow the advice numbers would climb and lockdown would return?

What did you want him exactly to say in June for example?
What could be have said that wasn't negative and wouldn't have caused the current outbreak earlier?

He literally kept telling us that this would happen and now you blame him when it happens? It boggles the mind.
I hope you warmed up before those mental gymnastics.

They were never going to climb very high in the summer as the rest of Europe showed.
We were supposed to be taking example from the rest of Europe which had travel, dining, pubs and schools opened from April and May but instead we cancelled the leaving cert and still had museums closed in August despite single and double digit daily case numbers

They were always going to climb again as it got cold and people flocked indoors.

Hopefully we have learned to stop sneaking at people having pints on the street and the like as it clearly has little effect in spread compared to indoor congregations.

GreeBo

SusieBlue wrote: »

Maybe distribute supplies a bit more evenly instead of leaving one sector with absolutely nothing and no way of protecting itself during a worldwide pandemic?
Do you really think that’s an acceptable standard?

Care home residents are there typically there because they are either so elderly they cannot look after themselves, or they have underlying conditions which mean they cannot look after themselves.
Hence as soon as the virus ripped through those settings, many residents ended up dying.
To date the vast majority of coronavirus deaths occurred in these homes and I don’t think it’s a contrary opinion to think they should have been taken better care of and given more consideration rather than being left completely exposed.

That one sector should have been much easier to keep safe, their social interactions should have been zero, the mistake was letting visitors into care homes.

GreeBo

normanoffside wrote: »

They were never going to climb very high in the summer as the rest of Europe showed.
We were supposed to be taking example from the rest of Europe which had travel, dining, pubs and schools opened from April and May but instead we cancelled the leaving cert and still had museums closed in August despite single and double digit daily case numbers

They were always going to climb again as it got cold and people flocked indoors.

Hopefully we have learned to stop sneaking at people having pints on the street and the like as it clearly has little effect in spread compared to indoor congregations.

Summer?

Australia and Brazil are laughing at you right now buddy.

Uriel.

SusieBlue wrote: »

So you take issue with me believing the NHI and the various media reports from March - June that nursing homes were under resourced, but believe the government line blindly with no question. Right. It’s not like they’d have any motivation to lie at all.

As I said above, the Dail record indicates the amount of PPE that was being provided at the time, while accepting supplies were constrained.
NPHET has published a number of papers and a catalogue of correspondence between the State and NHI
Theyve been very transparent. Its all there to read.

How much have NHI/private nursing homes spent on PPE? No one knows because they won't say

normanoffside

GreeBo wrote: »

Summer?

Australia and Brazil are laughing at you right now buddy.

I’m not your buddy.

GreeBo

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Of course it’s not but seriously why is outdoor activities outlawed?

Surely nothing is safer than any outdoor activities?

Exactly, doing nothing is safer.

You don't need to surf or hike or golf or whatever at the best of times, certainly not during a pandemic.

GreeBo

normanoffside wrote: »

I’m not your buddy.

That's the bit of my post you replied to? Tells it all really.

Uriel.

GreeBo wrote: »

That one sector should have been much easier to keep safe, their social interactions should have been zero, the mistake was letting visitors into care homes.

Yes. Exactly they should have stopped all visitors and staff entering the nursing homes.
If staff didn't go to work there'd be very limited risk of covid outbreaks in nursing homes

GreeBo

Uriel. wrote: »

Yes. Exactly they should have stopped all visitors and staff entering the nursing homes.
If staff didn't go to work there'd be very limited risk of covid outbreaks in nursing homes

Staff should be expected to be capable of maintaining safe conditions compared to random visitors.

Uriel.

GreeBo wrote: »

Staff should be expected to be capable of maintaining safe conditions compared to random visitors.

And yet that's not the international experience so there you go. There was no or limited visiting to nursing homes from about mid-March and yet outbreaks were occurring in April, May and June etc.

MrMusician18

SusieBlue wrote: »

Not this again.
I held gatherings in my home during the summer and into September as per the rules.
I believe my only transgression was having 7 guests over instead of the maximum 6, but justified it because most of the guests were from the same household, and fell under the maximum amount of households mixing.
We played board games, watched Netflix and drank wine. Throwing parties, indeed :rolleyes:
If you have any further issues with my posts please report them to a Mod cause I have no intention of rehashing old arguments with you.

Yes this again. You find fault with the governments approach, yet you've freely admitted to breaking them yourself.

It's easy to blame others, to blame government but not yourself. If I recall correctly you were calling for further opening and relaxation on some spurious "mental health" bollocks.

SusieBlue

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Yes this again. You find fault with the governments approach, yet you've freely admitted to breaking them yourself.

It's easy to blame others, to blame government but not yourself. If I recall correctly you were calling for further opening and relaxation on some spurious "mental health" bollocks.

Yes, if I recall correctly you said I should be prosecuted and imprisoned for a lengthy period for having one extra person over to my house when restrictions were relaxed somewhat during the summer and in early autumn.
I was unbothered by your hysterical overreaction then and I’m unbothered now.
I know I have done my best since March even if that isn’t good enough for you.
The fact that you are still referring to the ever worsening mental health crisis in this country as ‘bollocks’ makes your alleged concern for the vulnerable and elderly seem completely disingenuous, btw.

If you have any issues with my posts please report to a Mod rather than derail the thread by bringing up an argument we had elsewhere nearly 4 months ago.

Mean Laqueefa

GreeBo wrote: »

It's "killing you" that you can't surf?

ones hobby and drive to do something difficult and try become there best self at it is amazing , you should never mock someone when they loose there chance at chasing it

Windmill100000

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Two thirds of the deaths in December were due to nursing home and hospital outbreaks. We completely failed to even try put actions in place to stop that from happening.

The delay in reporting cases is because the IT system is outdated and has failed.

Contact tracing has failed.

Vaccines have been left sitting in freezers and our leaders “Don’t know” when asked why we hadn’t started vaccinating.

The longest/harshest restrictions in Europe hasn’t worked well at all.

Our leaders have failed us again and again. And that’s without even getting into the economy and other health issues.

What do you mean we did nothing? Where I work, wards with breakouts had all patients and staff tested, wards were closed and deep cleaned and not reopened for days. What can we do? Put patients in a tent and demolish hospitals?

Hospitals have to prioritise all patients and that means segregating covid positive from covid negative patients. It's very difficult when wards are closed and patients are telling us they are sick to death of being moved around.

Edit: And covid isnt the only infection. MRSA, VRE, CPE, MDRO posive patients all need isolation. Patients with these infecttions have to be in either single rooms or cohorts. Covid has added to the nightmare but we are doing the best we can. No one is going in to work unaware of the crisis and the serious implications of outbreaks.

CruelSummer

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Yes this again. You find fault with the governments approach, yet you've freely admitted to breaking them yourself.

It's easy to blame others, to blame government but not yourself. If I recall correctly you were calling for further opening and relaxation on some spurious "mental health" bollocks.

The smugness in some posters over our current crisis is shocking, like it’s a prize won or trophy gained. Mocking mental health also as an issue sums up your views to me.
As I’ve witnessed, even the most self righteous NPHET and restrictions supporters are the exception to the rules when it applies to them.
The biggest issue here is George Lee, NPHET and the Zero Covid Professors cried wolf too many times with the previous strain, over the summer and early Autumn. Now we’ve the new version on our shores, which bafflingly Dr Gascon is trying to deny, and the Wolf Criers pleas got lost on a certain section of society. The boards posters are not the ones you should worry about, it’s those who couldn’t be bothered at all.

CruelSummer

Windmill100000 wrote: »

What do you mean we did nothing? Where I work, wards with breakouts had all patients and staff tested, wards were closed and deep cleaned and not reopened for days. What can we do? Put patients in a tent and demolish hospitals?

Hospitals have to prioritise all patients and that means segregating covid positive from covid negative patients. It's very difficult when wards are closed and patients are telling us they are sick to death of being moved around.

This is true and glad to hear that. The new strain seems to be confirmed as up to 50% more transmissible.
I’m afraid I’ve heard of a hospital in the West where both groups of patients were put together pending the outcome of their tests. And only then separated if some tested positive. This hospital now has a substantial outbreak of Covid.

Windmill100000

CruelSummer wrote: »

This is true and glad to hear that. The new strain seems to be confirmed as up to 50% more transmissible.
I’m afraid I’ve heard of a hospital in the West where both groups of patients were put together pending the outcome of their tests. And only then separated if some tested positive. This hospital now has a substantial outbreak of Covid.

I cant speak for all hospitals, but to say we are doing nothing is unfair. Space is a problem. There are only so many beds at the best of times. Unfortunately we cant take patients off elsewhere. They are in the hospital because they need 24/7 access to medical staff, drugs, and specialised equipment. Not just covid patients, all patients.

Add to this staff getting sick at short notice. A lot of agency staff don't want to work at the moment for obvious reasons, so full staff at all times is often not possible. Even one sick member of staff at short notice is a nightmare.

I know some people think frontline staff are kicking back. It's not my experience at all. If your ward is closed you are moved elsewhere to fill in for those out sick.

CruelSummer

Windmill100000 wrote: »

I cant speak for all hospitals, but to say we are doing nothing is unfair. Space is a problem. There are only so many beds at the best of times. Unfortunately we cant take patients off elsewhere. They are in the hospital because they need 24/7 access to medical staff, drugs, and specialised equipment. Not just covid patients, all patients.

Add to this staff getting sick at short notice. A lot of agency staff don't want to work at the moment for obvious reasons, so full staff at all times is often not possible. Even one sick member of staff at short notice is a nightmare.

I know some people think frontline staff are kicking back. It's not my experience at all. If your ward is closed you are moved elsewhere to fill in for those out sick.

True and I certainly don’t think hospital staff do nothing. I’ve huge respect for them and all they do.

Windmill100000

CruelSummer wrote: »

True and I certainly don’t think hospital staff do nothing. I’ve huge respect for them and all they do.

Thank you and I appreciate many feel similar. No one is looking for a medal. We are doing our job, but seeing people insinuate we are just sitting back and letting things go out of control by doing nothing is wrong.

Hopefully things start to improve soon because every single person is sick of it.

My own mental health is suffering, like many, many others, but that is a story for another day.

Captain_Crash

GreeBo wrote: »

the mistake was letting visitors into care homes.

Not according to NPHET!

https://www.thesun.ie/news/5408102/coronavirus-in-ireland-tony-holohan-nursing-home-visitors/

*I agree tho, it was a big mistake!

Windmill100000

Windmill100000 wrote: »

What do you mean we did nothing? Where I work, wards with breakouts had all patients and staff tested, wards were closed and deep cleaned and not reopened for days. What can we do? Put patients in a tent and demolish hospitals?

Hospitals have to prioritise all patients and that means segregating covid positive from covid negative patients. It's very difficult when wards are closed and patients are telling us they are sick to death of being moved around.

Edit: And covid isnt the only infection. MRSA, VRE, CPE, MDRO posive patients all need isolation. Patients with these infecttions have to be in either single rooms or cohorts. Covid has added to the nightmare but we are doing the best we can. No one is going in to work unaware of the crisis and the serious implications of outbreaks.

That’s just my experience. My GP wears a mask, a visor and PPE. He takes temperature checks before you can enter as well.

But I was able to casually stroll into 2 Dublin hospitals last year and most staff didn’t even wear a mask.

So the high percentage of healthcare workers testing positive and hospital outbreaks weren’t too surprising to me.

To be honest though, hospitals are lower on my list of priorities. Nursing homes was and still is the main issue.

With the billions we have to spend, I refuse to believe that not more could be done to keep it out.

HBC08

normanoffside wrote: »

They were never going to climb very high in the summer as the rest of Europe showed.
We were supposed to be taking example from the rest of Europe which had travel, dining, pubs and schools opened from April and May but instead we cancelled the leaving cert and still had museums closed in August despite single and double digit daily case numbers

They were always going to climb again as it got cold and people flocked indoors.

Hopefully we have learned to stop sneaking at people having pints on the street and the like as it clearly has little effect in spread compared to indoor congregations.

Museums opened on June 29th.

average_runner

normanoffside wrote: »

They were never going to climb very high in the summer as the rest of Europe showed.
We were supposed to be taking example from the rest of Europe which had travel, dining, pubs and schools opened from April and May but instead we cancelled the leaving cert and still had museums closed in August despite single and double digit daily case numbers

They were always going to climb again as it got cold and people flocked indoors.

Hopefully we have learned to stop sneaking at people having pints on the street and the like as it clearly has little effect in spread compared to indoor congregations.

Yep were meant to be taking the example of Europe. Europe had a xmas lockdown and we didnt. Now we will have a extra long lockdown

average_runner

average_runner wrote: »

Yep were meant to be taking the example of Europe. Europe had a xmas lockdown and we didnt. Now we will have a extra long lockdown

We didn’t follow Europe and open between May and September when cases were near 0 at times.

So it’s obviously a complete failure if we need another longer lockdown.

Windmill100000

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That’s just my experience. My GP wears a mask, a visor and PPE. He takes temperature checks before you can enter as well.

But I was able to casually stroll into 2 Dublin hospitals last year and most staff didn’t even wear a mask.

So the high percentage of healthcare workers testing positive and hospital outbreaks weren’t too surprising to me.

To be honest though, hospitals are lower on my list of priorities. Nursing homes was and still is the main issue.

With the billions we have to spend, I refuse to believe that not more could be done to keep it out.

I'm absolutely astounded most staff were not wearing a mask. I have not seen someone without a mask since they became mandatory at work - staff and visitors. I'm also surprised you were able to casually stroll in as only the actively dying are allowed visitors and even that is organised in advance. You can of course casually stroll into reception to drop off or collect clothes but getting onto wards is a very different story. Occasionally a patient that is highly agitated, who has dementia for example is allowed a short visit. However, this is very rare. Porters have a list of names of people allowed to visit (as determined by ward manager) and only those on that list are allowed in. One at a time, two at a stretch if family support is needed at end stage of life.

Have you approached the hospital about your experience? Let them know what you saw?

Your experience couldn't be more different to mine.

PPE is not 100%. Patients are seen by many staff, nurses, carers, consultants, dieticians, physio etc. With the amount of people coming in providing hands on care (social distancing isnt possible for people that need assistance walking or feeding), the virus can spread, even with gloves, mask etc.

average_runner

My dad was in and out of the hospital for last 6 months, every time he got a test when getting admitted and a test when leaving.

In the nursing home the restrictions in place are tight. No one in or out. Staff limit their interactions outside the place.

Biggest problem in Ireland is the people knowingly going into the community with the virus. 4 people attended the a&e at home knowingly they had the virus .

Then you had the funeral in wexford, the gaa pub celebrations in gorey, waterford and mullingar all causing out breaks.

This behaviour has to stop, if not lockdown will stay for a long time.

average_runner

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We didn’t follow Europe and open between May and September when cases were near 0 at times.

So it’s obviously a complete failure if we need another longer lockdown.

Its a complete failure because of a small percentage behaviour.
A house down the road had s new years eve party for feck sake. Luckily the street reacted and they all left.

Lockdown wont get cases down to zero, but will reduce them alot. Better than if left open

average_runner

Windmill100000 wrote: »

I'm absolutely astounded most staff were not wearing a mask. I have not seen someone without a mask since they became mandatory at work. I'm also surprised you were able to casually stroll in as only the actively dying are allowed visitors and even that is organised in advance. Occasionally a patient that is highly agitated, who has dementia for example is allowed a short visit. However this is very rare. Porters have a list of names of people allowed to visit (as determined by ward manager) and only those on that list are allowed in. One at a time, two at a stretch if family support is needed at end stage of life.

Have you approached the hospital about your experience? Let them know what you saw?

Your experience couldn't be more different to mine.

PPE is not 100%. Patients are seen by many staff, nurses, carers, consultants, dieticians, physio etc. With the amount of people coming in providing hands on care (social distancing isnt possible for people that need assistance walking or feeding), the virus can spread, even with gloves, mask etc.

Totally agree with you. We had the same experience on access etc. Was delighted to see how tight the hospital was run. Credit to all.

The person complaining, can you name the hospital to prove you are not stirring?

the kelt

average_runner wrote: »

Its a complete failure because of a small percentage behaviour.
A house down the road had s new years eve party for feck sake. Luckily the street reacted and they all left.

Lockdown wont get cases down to zero, but will reduce them alot. Better than if left open

But having lockdowns and expecting 100% to the letter obedience isn’t feasible, possible or even planned for.

Lockdowns are down for two reasons.

One to reduce case numbers and lessen the strain on medical services which we done.

Secondly to buy ourselves time, time to put in the proper infrastructure, proper systems and procedures in place to deal with subsequent waves during the pandemic.

Which to be honest we haven’t done, a test and trace system that’s a joke and an IT system that can’t cope with more than 2000 cases a day by all accounts.

None of that is on joe soap public.