Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

normanoffside

GreeBo wrote: »

Emergency.... Not day to day HSE.

The E in NPHET is for emergency

Uriel.

Hellrazer wrote: »

But hes the boss and has to take some responsibility.

but he's not, and the fact that you think he is, just demonstrates how little people know and/or want to know.

normanoffside

Boggles wrote: »

Most of NPHET's advice is published, it's not within their remit to do much else. Also you are one of the more vocal ones that are against their advice, so I don't really see what you are complaining about now.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

Most of their advise is restrictions on the public instead of improvements on Healthcare systems which is why I'm against it.
I feel they should also be actively improving our healthcare.

Anyway all you are saying just comes across as passing the buck and high level corporate speak, which is exactly what most of us feel about NPHET and the HSE.

It sounds like Tony Holohan has a dream job to be fair.

He only has to give the government advice. The only advice he ever offers is to close the country down.

The government then have to consider the whole situation including economy etc etc. They get criticised to bits if they go against Tony.

He also has no responsibilities at all around healthcare or nursing homes.

Big fat 6 figure salary and absolutely 0 accountability for anything.

A 5 year old could advise us to just stay at home.

Uriel.

normanoffside wrote: »

Most of their advise is restrictions on the public instead of improvements on Healthcare systems which is why I'm against it.
I feel they should also be actively improving our healthcare.

Anyway all you are saying just comes across as passing the buck and high level corporate speak, which is exactly what most of us feel about NPHET and the HSE.

That's not their role.

Improving our health system is the job of the Minister and of the HSE.

s.7(1) of the Health Act:

7.—(1) The object of the Executive [HSE] is to use the resources available to it in the most beneficial, effective and efficient manner to improve, promote and protect the health and welfare of the public.

Uriel.

Deleted User wrote: »

It sounds like Tony Holohan has a dream job to be fair.

He only has to give the government advice. The only advice he ever offers is to close the country down.

The government then have to consider the whole situation including economy etc etc. They get criticised to bits if they go against Tony.

He also has no responsibilities at all around healthcare or nursing homes.

Big fat 6 figure salary and absolutely 0 accountability for anything.

A 5 year old could advise us to just stay at home.

All of NPHET's advice and considerations is published:
https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/691330-national-public-health-emergency-team-covid-19-coronavirus/

take a good read through it all and see if the only advice or work NPHET does is to recommend lockdown.

Uriel.

Uriel. wrote: »

All of NPHET's advice and considerations is published:
https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/691330-national-public-health-emergency-team-covid-19-coronavirus/

take a good read through it all and see if the only advice or work NPHET does is to recommend lockdown.

I’ve read plenty of their letters before.

Thank god the government have shielded us from many of their desires.

I remember reading plenty of rubbish about TV volumes in pubs and only 1 person allowed in a car etc

the kelt

Boggles wrote: »

NPHET's job is to advise. Which they do, governance and the HSE.

Tony is not the boss of the HSE, that's not my opinion.

The HSE and governance choose whether to implement that advice.

e.g.

Glynn wrote to the HSE 3 times advising them to beef up their contact tracing before it buckled in October.

They didn't beef it up.

Now is that Glynns fault or Paul Reid's fault?

That’s my point,

The failings of the HSE which people keep making excuses on here for isn’t actually Tony Holohan’s fault, sure I have issue with stuff he has and hasn’t done but can’t blame him for that.

What I don’t understand is why people constantly make excuses for the HSE here, I mean their failings over the years have been stuff of legend and when lockdown number 1 bought enough time to rectify some failing and prepare for the situation going forward once again they failed.

And we have muppets on here who don’t feel it’s appropriate to be asking the HSE how our vaccination numbers are going because they might get burnt out giving us a number, with apologists for failure like those people we have the health service we have.

Boggles

normanoffside wrote: »

Most of their advise is restrictions on the public instead of improvements on Healthcare systems which is why I'm against it.
I feel they should also be actively improving our healthcare.

Well then that is the problem, you are obscuring facts with feelings.

Never a good mix when trying to understand a fundamental.

normanoffside

Uriel. wrote: »

That's not their role.

Improving our health system is the job of the Minister and of the HSE.

s.7(1) of the Health Act:

I haven't seen any letters to the Minister advising him to double ICU capacity

normanoffside

Boggles wrote: »

Well then that is the problem, you are obscuring facts with feelings.

Never a good mix when trying to understand a fundamental.

OK, then if Tony's only job is advising then lets look at some of his advice in this Emergency:

• NPHET advised the government and the HSE to send untested elderly patients from Hospitals to nursing homes to free up beds and subsequently brought the virus into Nursing homes en-masse..
• NPHET advised Nursing homes to allow visitors in without restrictions against HIQA advice well into the pandemic
• HPHET didn't advise to introduce testing in Nursing home staff until over 1000 nursing home residents had died.
• NPHET advised government to allow Italian Rugby Fans come to Ireland when the virus levels were low here and high in northern Italy.
• NPHET didn't advise Government to cancel St Patrick's day Parades or close pubs until public pressure made them cancel and close themselves.
• NPHET advised against use of masks until July.

I'm sure there is more, but do you still think St Tony and NPHET are doing a good job with their Advice?

Boggles

normanoffside wrote: »

OK, then if Tony's only job is advising then lets look at some of his advice in this Emergency:

• NPHET advised the government and the HSE to send untested elderly patients from Hospitals to nursing homes to free up beds and subsequently brought the virus into Nursing homes en-masse..
• NPHET advised Nursing homes to allow visitors in without restrictions against HIQA advice well into the pandemic
• HPHET didn't advise to introduce testing in Nursing home staff until over 1000 nursing home residents had died.
• NPHET advised government to allow Italian Rugby Fans come to Ireland when the virus levels were low here and high in northern Italy.
• NPHET didn't advise Government to cancel St Patrick's day Parades or close pubs until public pressure made them cancel and close themselves.
• NPHET advised against use of masks until July.

I'm sure there is more, but do you still think St Tony and NPHET are doing a good job with their Advice?

Again you are letting your ill feelings towards a particular member of NPHET color your judgement.

And TBH I don't think NPHET did actually advise half of what you listed.

But if you are asking me have NPHET made mistakes.

Absolutely, very few public health systems or governance haven't.

The 2 biggest ones for me.

Re the encouraging people to visit nursing homes, that was daft in the extreme and I called it out on here about 2 minutes after he made those comments, pretty forcibly if I remember correctly.

Mask denial was for the "greater good", a policy I completely disagreed with since day 1.

323

GreeBo wrote: »

1.83m deaths so far from covid, what number do you think it is?

Should this not read 1.83m deaths with covid, WHO guidelines, anyone who dies while having been tested positive for Covid (previous 28 days in the UK), asymptomatic or not is listed as a covid death, regardless of the actual cause of death.


eg. once the coroners were involved the CSO stats published in November list Zero Covid deaths in Ireland for last March.

Uriel.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I’ve read plenty of their letters before.

Thank god the government have shielded us from many of their desires.

I remember reading plenty of rubbish about TV volumes in pubs and only 1 person allowed in a car etc

And yet there are studies indicating that acoustic conditions can play a role in transmission. Louder environments requiring people to shout can increase transmission for obvious reasons.

UK public health guidance for the food and pub industry has included such recommendations for some time
The pubs and restaurants that could reopene in Ireland didn't have an issue with this either as it was a logical mitigating action to make such environments safer.

Your on ignorance of these kinds of things demonstrates why we have experts advising Gov and not wannabe Internet "experts"

Uriel.

normanoffside wrote: »

I haven't seen any letters to the Minister advising him to double ICU capacity

I'm not sure about doubling ICU capacity but I've definitely seen advice on capacity development

Uriel.

normanoffside wrote: »

OK, then if Tony's only job is advising then lets look at some of his advice in this Emergency:

• NPHET advised the government and the HSE to send untested elderly patients from Hospitals to nursing homes to free up beds and subsequently brought the virus into Nursing homes en-masse..
• NPHET advised Nursing homes to allow visitors in without restrictions against HIQA advice well into the pandemic
• HPHET didn't advise to introduce testing in Nursing home staff until over 1000 nursing home residents had died.
• NPHET advised government to allow Italian Rugby Fans come to Ireland when the virus levels were low here and high in northern Italy.
• NPHET didn't advise Government to cancel St Patrick's day Parades or close pubs until public pressure made them cancel and close themselves.
• NPHET advised against use of masks until July.

I'm sure there is more, but do you still think St Tony and NPHET are doing a good job with their Advice?

Can u provide copies if this advice and /or a source..?

What role did visitors to nursing homes play in causing outbreaks.

Can you link to a copy of the HIQA advice you cite.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Just off the phone to my uncle in Dublin, said a 17 year old neighbour did himself in. Community is devastated. These people deserve to be remembered, equally as important as those who passed from Covid complications. Damage wrought on mental health of extended lockdowns throughout Ireland is incalculable, let's not sweep it under the carpet.

Mental health isn't a new issue, and has been underfunded for decades. I'm not sure that the anti-lockdown stuff is helping much for mental health.

Solar2021 wrote: »

I know it's not PC but a certain demographic need some home truths and restictions put on them to let young people live imo, it's gone on too long now

It's not fair young adults are locked down for a virus that will do nothing to 99% of them to save a certain demographic that it can be devastating for and they both have the same restrictions against them, makes no sense.

Demographic based restrictions should be brought in after this lockdown imo

I wouldn't be letting them into dangerous enviroments like restaurant's, gym's etc until it's safe or they have been vaccinated

If your 10 stone overweight or 70+ years of age you know it's not safe out there, stay home would be message

You know that a lot of young adults live with older adults, right?

SusieBlue wrote: »

Sorry did you miss the worldwide shortage we experienced for PPE and sanitiser at the start of this pandemic?
That was the whole reason we had to fly to China for supplies. It was the reason they had to advise the public at the very start that masks weren’t workable or necessary, because they were trying to keep stocks for the frontline.
It was also the reason that many top clothing designers started mass producing PPE and medical gowns and how distillers started producing hand sanitiser - worldwide shortage + emergency.

https://www.thejournal.ie/nursing-homes-ireland-ppe-5107840-May2020/


The government basically exclusively took over all supply chains so that private businesses couldn’t source it themselves, and then neglected to prioritise care home workers on the frontline.
Workers are who were dealing with among the most vulnerable members of society, but instead of being prioritised or even considered many had nothing at all and the rest had to make do with their own home made PPE using supplies from hardware stores.
That is absolutely disgraceful.

Still no comment on the direct provision centres and the hospital outbreaks. I’m assuming that’s because you have yet to come up with a justification for it that makes it our fault and admonishes those in charge of any responsibility. Very telling.

You seem to be ignoring the question of what level of contingency planning these private sector businesses had done around infection control? Where were their PPE stocks before the pandemic hit?

SusieBlue wrote: »

The state isn’t being blamed for the lack of PPE, the state is being blamed for not prioritising or even considering nursing homes when they allocated said PPE.

Which parts of the health service would you deprioritise to reallocate stock to private nursing homes?

alentejo wrote: »

I really hope they tweak the 5k rule. A county or 20k rule if long term. The 5 k rule is the one I really hate

I guess the objective is to stop large numbers of people congregating at leisure spots like Bray or Glendalough. Maybe there's a better way to achieve this.

It's hard to see any reason for the 5k limit for those cycling or walking. If anything, it may well be counter productive.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Of course it’s not but seriously why is outdoor activities outlawed?

Surely nothing is safer than any outdoor activities?

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly, doing nothing is safer.

You don't need to surf or hike or golf or whatever at the best of times, certainly not during a pandemic.

You do need to keep fit and healthy during a pandemic, and outdoor activities will be a big part of this, especially with gyms closed.

Hellrazer wrote: »

But hes the boss and has to take some responsibility.

No, he's not.

normanoffside wrote: »

Tony and NPHET is just a HSE excuse making front.
No wonder as a sizeable number of the 40 NPHET members are HSE employees and Tony's job as CMO is to oversee the smooth running of the health service.

Tony's role as CMO is NOT to oversee the running of the health service, smooth or otherwise.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The pro Tony crew will be on to say his only job is to repeatedly mandate level 5 at all times while articulating his level of concern.

NPHET have actually 0 responsibility.

It’s such a clever set up, nobody can be held accountable for the complete load of bolix

Hellrazer wrote: »

Tony has Papal Infallability.

His comments last night that the health system cant cope with more increases in numbers should have been the one that gave him his p45.

Original lockdown was what we were all told was to give us time to prepare for a second wave. Obviously they didn't do this so someone has to be accountable. And as hes the CMO he should be the one at fault.

If I ****ed up that badly in work Id be gone before the day was out.

You both seem to be fairly confused about the roles and structure of NPHET, Dept Health and HSE. You might want to read up before you embarrass yourself more.

normanoffside wrote: »

Why are you such a HSE apologist?
We can all give reasons and excuses for poor performance in our work but when we keep having to give them time and time again we are eventually deemed incompetent and replaced.
At least that's how it works in the private sector....

What poor performance are you referring to specifically? And it would help if you have some understanding of who makes funding decisions and priority decisions for health services before you answer.

normanoffside wrote: »

I'm not apologising for Paul Reid.
But most of NPHET are HSE employees so NPHET may as well be writing a letter to themselves.

The Job of a CEO in a private company involves overseeing operations and management of all aspects of the company, advising different departments making sure it works correctly and in tandem.

If a company fails the buck ultimately stops with the CEO.
I don't see that a CMO is any different, if his 'advice' is falling on deaf ears he needs to be more forceful and make it happen.

Governments are not private companies. They don't sell products. They don't have customers. They don't have shareholders. Applying stuff from private companies to governments doesn't work well, as anyone who's been watching Trump will know.

Deleted User wrote: »

It sounds like Tony Holohan has a dream job to be fair.

He only has to give the government advice. The only advice he ever offers is to close the country down.

The government then have to consider the whole situation including economy etc etc. They get criticised to bits if they go against Tony.

He also has no responsibilities at all around healthcare or nursing homes.

Big fat 6 figure salary and absolutely 0 accountability for anything.

A 5 year old could advise us to just stay at home.

This sounds like the ranting of a sulky five year old to be honest. You clearly have little idea what goes into managing a pandemic, but you have amazing, unsubstantiated confidence in your ability to make judgments on the topic.

normanoffside

Uriel. wrote: »

Can you link to a copy of the HIQA advice you cite.

My apologies it was the NHI (Nursing homes Ireland) which called for a ban on all visits on 6th March but was subsequently over rules by NPHET and the HSE

https://ltccovid.org/2020/04/03/a-short-preliminary-report-on-nursing-homes-and-covid-19-measures-introduced-in-ireland/


NHI began to offer advice to private and voluntary nursing homes soon after. Less than a week after the first confirmed case of Covid-19, NHI announced on 06.03.2020 that visiting restrictions were in place across private and voluntary nursing homes in Ireland with a view to protecting residents.[3]

FintanMcluskey

Multiple comment quotes are perhaps the best cure for insomnia

Lundstram

This is some journalism. And there's many more of her like in the media in this country. "NPHET and HSE are heroes, the public at large are irresponsible idiots".

https://twitter.com/sjanemurf/status/1345372562105262081

Badly need a Ewan MacKenna or Vincent Browne type journalist asking hard questions of people on 6 figure salaries. This fawning over NPHET and the incompetent Paul Reid is just nauseating.

Captain_Crash

Lundstram wrote: »

This is some journalism. And there's many more of her like in the media in this country. "NPHET and HSE are heroes, the public at large are irresponsible idiots".

https://twitter.com/sjanemurf/status/1345372562105262081

Badly need a Ewan MacKenna or Vincent Browne type journalist asking hard questions of people on 3 figure salaries. This fawning over NPHET and the incompetent Paul Reid is just nauseating.

I actually know her, she’s a right dose!

Lundstram

Captain_Crash wrote: »

I actually know her, she’s a right dose!

Her bio: "award winning Auntie"

Sweet Jesus.

Uriel.

normanoffside wrote: »

My apologies it was the NHI (Nursing homes Ireland) which called for a ban on all visits on 6th March but was subsequently over rules by NPHET and the HSE

https://ltccovid.org/2020/04/03/a-short-preliminary-report-on-nursing-homes-and-covid-19-measures-introduced-in-ireland/


NHI began to offer advice to private and voluntary nursing homes soon after. Less than a week after the first confirmed case of Covid-19, NHI announced on 06.03.2020 that visiting restrictions were in place across private and voluntary nursing homes in Ireland with a view to protecting residents.[3]

What role do NHI Have to provide such advice? What competence and on what basis was that advice being provided?

And again what role has visitors played in causing outbreaks. The international wisdom is now thst well controlled visiting is essential to health and wellbeing of residents.

Now at level 5 notwithstanding the level of transmission around certain amount of visiting is allowed.

Simply put, its easier for nursing homes to turn themselves into prisons than deal with trying to manage safe visiting. As usual the easy way out with them. Coming at the same time as being bailed out by the State to tune of 100s of millions of euro

Captain_Crash

Lundstram wrote: »

Her bio: "award winning Auntie"

Sweet Jesus.

She’s harvesting outrage. It’s nothing unusual for her. If Tony & Co. we’re going on about the societal damage caused by badgers in the winter she’d be moaning about the Zoo selling badger teddy’s!

froog

Lundstram wrote: »

This is some journalism. And there's many more of her like in the media in this country. "NPHET and HSE are heroes, the public at large are irresponsible idiots".

https://twitter.com/sjanemurf/status/1345372562105262081

Badly need a Ewan MacKenna or Vincent Browne type journalist asking hard questions of people on 6 figure salaries. This fawning over NPHET and the incompetent Paul Reid is just nauseating.

NPHET are a purely advisory group, and their advice was not taken, or not taken fully on a few occasions. hard to blame them at all for the current mess. some blame absolutely could be put on the government for not taking NPHETs advice (i would add to appease the hysterical shrieking from lobby groups and people like many of the posters in this thread). but the majority of blame must go on people who disregarded public health advice over christmas.

i don't know why you want to give the public a free pass here, people are not mindless automatons, they have decisions to make and many many people made the wrong decisions over christmas. and here we are.

the same people blaming NPHET/government now are the exact same people who campaigned HARD to open up for christmas. you couldn't make it up.

froog

froog wrote: »

NPHET are a purely advisory group, and their advice was not taken, or not taken fully on a few occasions. hard to blame them at all for the current mess. some blame absolutely could be put on the government for not taking NPHETs advice (i would add to appease the hysterical shrieking from lobby groups and people like many of the posters in this thread). but the majority of blame must go on people who disregarded public health advice over christmas.

i don't know why you want to give the public a free pass here, people are not mindless automatons, they have decisions to make and many many people made the wrong decisions over christmas. and here we are.

the same people blaming NPHET/government now are the exact same people who campaigned HARD to open up for christmas. you couldn't make it up.

Do you know people who disregarded the advice?

We were at level 3 and people were allowed to go shopping or to restaurants. Over Christmas, people were allowed to have visitors in their homes.

Are you suggesting that people that did those things made wrong decisions?

The big problem in this country is ultimately that we were locked up needlessly for 5 months while most of the world was open.

Grandeeod

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you know people who disregarded the advice?

We were at level 3 and people were allowed to go shopping or to restaurants. Over Christmas, people were allowed to have visitors in their homes.

Are you suggesting that people that did those things made wrong decisions?

The big problem in this country is ultimately that we were locked up needlessly for 5 months while most of the world was open.

I know lots of people who disregarded the advice. They still are as of today.

People were allowed to visit restaurants in the build up to Christmas by the Government while at the same time NPHET said just because you can it doesn't mean you have too. NPHET also advised the Government to allow restaurants/pub dining or home visits. The Government allowed both.

The increasing numbers are proof that some people made wrong decisions and the Government enabled them.

froog

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you know people who disregarded the advice?

We were at level 3 and people were allowed to go shopping or to restaurants. Over Christmas, people were allowed to have visitors in their homes.

Are you suggesting that people that did those things made wrong decisions?

The big problem in this country is ultimately that we were locked up needlessly for 5 months while most of the world was open.

does the current situation not show you why we locked down? not even a tiny bit?

i mean my god, think about it for just a few seconds.

froog

froog wrote: »

does the current situation not show you why we locked down? not even a tiny bit?

i mean my god, think about it for just a few seconds.

I think it’s you that needs to have a good think about that...

Did you want us to remain in permanent lockdown from last March? Because that’s what you are implying.

froog

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it’s you that needs to have a good think about that...

Did you want us to remain in permanent lockdown from last March? Because that’s what you are implying.

you don't seem to understand how a lockdown reduces cases so i think we're done here.