Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Boggles

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

From reading your posts above though, you don't feel the same rules should apply to teachers if schools are similarly closed?

Schools closed to children, or all children does not equate to not utilizing the teachers.

10 months we have had to plan for it.

Time for the department to enact the plan they said they had.

Boggles

Ace2007 wrote: »

Why had the unions who are so vocal not once come out and offered the teachers to work the summer months, for the good our of children, the good of our health and to get over this pandemic.

Unions don't set the timetable, the department does.

Ace2007

Boggles wrote: »

Unions don't set the timetable, the department does.

Of course, the unions simply do what they are told - we never have any PS Strikes at all?

The unions can still come out and offer - like i said they are very vocal when they aren't happy about something - so why not in the hour of need for the country offer to help students and teach in the summer?

JRant

Boggles wrote: »

So you can't back up your accusation against me?

Would you be as good as to retract it so please.

You want the citation, you look it up.
Are you saying now that you are anti lockdown and restrictions?

_Kaiser_

Boggles wrote: »

Schools closed to children, or all children does not equate to not utilizing the teachers.

10 months we have had to plan for it.

Time for the department to enact the plan they said they had.

Is that a bit like the "living with Covid" plan the Government said they had, or us all buying the HSE time in the spring last year to get their plans in place and yet they are still complaning about capacity (as they do every year during the winter)

Those sorts of plans?

Yes, some teachers did actually provide a solid WFH/remote learning experience for students last year but by all accounts from the threads at the time this was the exception, not the norm - many students got a weekly worksheet and a list of things to do.. if that.

You expect it to be somehow different this time round?

Kermit.de.frog

JRant wrote: »

You want the citation, you look it up.
Are you saying now that you are anti lockdown and restrictions?

There is no pro or anti lockdown. The restrictions are there to protect public health.

Being accepting of them does not, and never has, equated to any desire to see harm done to businesses.

FintanMcluskey

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

There is no pro or anti lockdown. The restrictions are there to protect public health.

Being accepting of them does not, and never has, equated to any desire to see harm done to businesses.

No absolutely not. The restrictions are to prevent the spread of Covid

All other public health concerns have fallen behind Covid

the kelt

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Is that a bit like the "living with Covid" plan the Government said they had, or us all buying the HSE time in the spring last year to get their plans in place and yet they are still complaning about capacity (as they do every year during the winter)

Those sorts of plans?

Yes, some teachers did actually provide a solid WFH/remote learning experience for students last year but by all accounts from the threads at the time this was the exception, not the norm - many students got a weekly worksheet and a list of things to do.. if that.

You expect it to be somehow different this time round?

To be fair it should be different this time around is the point because the DOE have had 10 months to plan for this whereas the last time it was literally days.

My suspicion though is much like the HSE when given time to put plans and procedures in place for further escalation of COVID cases they actually completely wasted this time and the DOE have done exactly the same, failed and wasted this time.

That’s why they’re so loathe to close schools as it will be further evidence that the government and DOE, HSE you name it were afforded time by the first lockdown to ensure going forward everything was in place for the future but once again we have yet another failure.

Schools will close and people will realise nothing has been done to make sure everything can go as smoothly as possible and better than the last time, another failure just like the it systems not being upgraded to cater for bigger numbers and the lack of a proper test and tracing system etc.

Time afforded to us by the first lockdown all down the drain so they’ve nothing left other than lockdown and hoping the vaccine gets rolled out quickly which you know won’t happen, cos well the HSE etc

_Kaiser_

the kelt wrote: »

To be fair it should be different this time around is the point because the DOE have had 10 months to plan for this whereas the last time it was literally days.

My suspicion though is much like the HSE when given time to put plans and procedures in place for further escalation of COVID cases they actually completely wasted this time and the DOE have done exactly the same, failed and wasted this time.

That’s why they’re so loathe to close schools as it will be further evidence that the government and DOE, HSE you name it were afforded time by the first lockdown to ensure going forward everything was in place for the future but once again we have yet another failure.

I think it's more than that.

Reopening schools (and keeping them open) was the key promise of Micheal Martin's Government when they took power. If they are forced to close them now you can be sure much will be made of the point that they couldn't do even that ONE thing (and noting that they haven't been successful in much else!)

It's a political decision IMO. Nothing to do with DoE plans or health at all.

Captain_Crash

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Likely? I was certainly here in Jan 2020, and highly probable to certain that it was here in Nov/Dec 2019. Considering its transmissiblity, if it was here it had to have been in fairly high numbers.

Its confirmed to have been in France as early as 3 December 2020*, that was the day first known patient in Europe was admitted to hospital (not known to be Covid at the time). Its safe to say that person wasn't the first person in Europe to have it!

Added to that, the 2019 World Military Games were held in Wuhan in October, and multiple competitors had to pull out with flu like symptoms, including several French servicemen. Ireland had a few competitors at the games also.

*Double check that date, it was Early Dec tho.

The first case in France was someone whose partner/spouse worked at Charles deGaulle airport with its 2 direct flights to Wuhan. Hardly widespread, and if memory serves me right it was late December.

And the only way you can say with certainty it was here in January is if a sample returns a positive test

the kelt

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think it's more than that.

Reopening schools (and keeping them open) was the key promise of Micheal Martin's Government when they took power. If they are forced to close them now you can be sure much will be made of the point that they couldn't do even that ONE thing (and noting that they haven't been successful in much else!)

It's a political decision IMO. Nothing to do with DoE plans or health at all.

I agree there’s also a huge political element to it, that’s why they’re delaying making a decision and hoping NPHET etc make the decision for them.

You know the line will be we wanted to keep the schools open but taken out of our hands, straight from the Boris Johnson book of governance, leave it until there’s only one decision left and then claim you’re hands are tied, nothing to do with me.

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

So for about 6 weeks the highly transmissible virus was circulating with absolutely no mitigation measures but only did so in “low numbers” until the 1st cases were detected here?

1 on the 27th of January for example, becomes 3 on the 3rd of Feb, 9 on the 10th, 27 on the 17th, 81 on the 24th and 243 at the start of March. This is taking the upper estimate of the R0.

What we have had in the past 4 weeks is 300 become 600 become 1200 become 2400 become 4800

Boggles

Ace2007 wrote: »

Of course, the unions simply do what they are told - we never have any PS Strikes at all?

The unions can still come out and offer - like i said they are very vocal when they aren't happy about something - so why not in the hour of need for the country offer to help students and teach in the summer?

I think you are overestimating the power of the school unions.

If you look at the actual facts of the matter and what they have called for since schools reopened, none have been granted.

1. More robust testing and tracing.
2. Teachers to be at least included in the top 10 in the vaccination roll out.
3. Close the schools a day and a half early.

etc.

The vast majority of teachers want to do their job during the pandemic, it's up to the department of education to put in place a system that allows them to that.

So instead of Norma "Cyborg 5000" Foley lying to everyone that schools will be opening as planned, she should be publishing the Plan B to give everyone involved time to plan.

I suspect though Plan B doesn't exist in any meaningful form.

Boggles

JRant wrote: »

You want the citation, you look it up.

You want me to look up your BS accusation?

How would one go about doing that exactly?

I think we will leave there if you are not noble enough to retract your dishonest accusation and apologize.

Ace2007

Boggles wrote: »

I think you are overestimating the power of the school unions.

If you look at the actual facts of the matter and what they have called for since schools reopened, none have been granted.

1. More robust testing and tracing.
2. Teachers to be at least included in the top 10 in the vaccination roll out.
3. Close the schools a day and a half early.

etc.

The vast majority of teachers want to do their job during the pandemic, it's up to the department of education to put in place a system that allows them to that.

So instead of Norma "Cyborg 5000" Foley lying to everyone that schools will be opening as planned, she should be publishing the Plan B to give everyone involved time to plan.

I suspect though Plan B doesn't exist in any meaningful form.

The unions know thought that

1. Was highly unlikely given the numbers involved

2. Unions pushing teachers to get it over other much need services/personally though - that would never end well. Teachers unions need public on their side.
Nursing homes, ICU Nurses, hospitals, the elderly in community, those caring for elderly/vulnerable in society etc. Given all the evidence of it not affecting children as bad - you can understand why teachers weren't a priority. Again public image would be shocking for the unions if teachers were to get it before say hospital staff, or those looking after sick in the community. etc.

3. Why did they not suggest added a day and half on at the end of the year to compensate for closing early?


There is no system though that can ensure all students taught. We saw the threads last year where parents were left doing the work with students/children and the most teachers did was to send a sheet with stuff once a week.

Just like there is no system that a bar manager with a wet pub can go into work during level 5 lockdown - he just has to stay at home and get the pup.

The government had a very clear 5 level plan. The issue was that people chose to ignore it - and then chose to ignore the advice at xmas time.

I'd said it many times before - if the virus' mortality rate was as high for young people as it was for the elderly - people would have behaved very differently over xmas - whether pubs were opened or not.

CruelSummer

JRant wrote: »

With the likely closing of schools coming up will the government make the difficult decision to put all teachers on PUP. There may be a case for secondary school teachers remaining employed but there is absolutely nothing to justify it with primary teachers. Some difficult decisions to be made but the unions are probably correct in wanting schools closed for a period of time.

Well if that's the case, I hope teacher's sit back, relax and enjoy their time on PUP. Time to sit on boards.ie all day long on PUP and start slagging off other sections of the public service instead of offering solutions, or heck even joining the teaching profession as they have it so easy.
It's as if schools closing are somehow their fault. Teachers have worked all the way through, and the majority don't want them closed. But the chip on the shoulder brigade would turn even those who want them open against the idea. First in line to complain at the school I'm sure if there's a missed case if testing cannot be carried out on symptomatic people.

Captain_Crash

Deleted User wrote: »

The first case in France was someone whose partner/spouse worked at Charles deGaulle airport with its 2 direct flights to Wuhan. Hardly widespread, and if memory serves me right it was late December.

Your correct, it was 27 December, but the person doesn't know where they got it. The patient suspects his spouse, who worked near CDG but not at the airport. The below article suggests is was in France as early as Nov '19.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52526554

Deleted User wrote: »

And the only way you can say with certainty it was here in January is if a sample returns a positive test

True, and I cant find any evidence of old flu swabs being retested here so we'll never know for sure. But with the amount of travel around Europe during the festive season, its highly likely that it was here prior to Jan 2020. Especially considering the "bad dose" that was rampant around xmas that year. This is what we call in law, "the balance of probabilities".

Boggles

Ace2007 wrote: »

2. Unions pushing teachers to get it over other much need services/personally though - that would never end well. Teachers unions need public on their side.
Nursing homes, ICU Nurses, hospitals, the elderly in community, those caring for elderly/vulnerable in society etc. Given all the evidence of it not affecting children as bad - you can understand why teachers weren't a priority.

As far as I am aware 100% of all teachers are adults, the vaccine hasn't been tested on kids anyway.

I don't anyone was calling for teachers to be given vaccines ahead of people working with the most vulnerable.

All though some countries have put teachers on the same roll out plan as nurses.

CruelSummer

Ace2007 wrote: »

The unions know thought that

1. Was highly unlikely given the numbers involved

2. Unions pushing teachers to get it over other much need services/personally though - that would never end well. Teachers unions need public on their side.
Nursing homes, ICU Nurses, hospitals, the elderly in community, those caring for elderly/vulnerable in society etc. Given all the evidence of it not affecting children as bad - you can understand why teachers weren't a priority. Again public image would be shocking for the unions if teachers were to get it before say hospital staff, or those looking after sick in the community. etc.

3. Why did they not suggest added a day and half on at the end of the year to compensate for closing early?


There is no system though that can ensure all students taught. We saw the threads last year where parents were left doing the work with students/children and the most teachers did was to send a sheet with stuff once a week.

Just like there is no system that a bar manager with a wet pub can go into work during level 5 lockdown - he just has to stay at home and get the pup.

The government had a very clear 5 level plan. The issue was that people chose to ignore it - and then chose to ignore the advice at xmas time.

I'd said it many times before - if the virus' mortality rate was as high for young people as it was for the elderly - people would have behaved very differently over xmas - whether pubs were opened or not.

Did you expect teacher's to somehow have the super human capabilities of beaming a hologram of themselves into each and every home of multiple children during Lockdown 1, and oversee each and every one of their tasks individually and simultaneously? These 'teachers' with their extraordinary abilities seem to really be sitting back, while the poor parents actually had to try and educate, while given very clear guidelines from a Professional. And still they failed miserably.
Young children cannot sit and listen on Zoom, ever tried it with them?

Those pesky Unions calling for testing and tracing. It's not as if Joe Public are looking for scapegoats and wouldn't be first to the national media to complain about how 'unsafe' schools are if they reopen. How 10 people in class X are coughing and spreading the virus to the 90 year old around the corner...
There are even posters during the last Level 5 thinking of reporting teachers for 'singing' in their classrooms...

JRant

CruelSummer wrote: »

Well if that's the case, I hope teacher's sit back, relax and enjoy their time on PUP. Time to sit on boards.ie all day long on PUP and start slagging off other sections of the public service instead of offering solutions, or heck even joining the teaching profession as they have it so easy.
It's as if schools closing are somehow their fault. Teachers have worked all the way through, and the majority don't want them closed. But the chip on the shoulder brigade would turn even those who want them open against the idea. First in line to complain at the school I'm sure if there's a missed case if testing cannot be carried out on symptomatic people.

So do I but it would be yet another massive failing by the government and particularly the DES who have repeatedly let both students and teachers down this past 10 months.

Of course, it won't come to that and teachers will not be on any type of PUP. However, what we will be left with is a completely nonstandardised approach to teaching depending on the school/teacher with little to no guidance from the DES.

They won't even have the decency to give parents, pupils and teachers time to act before making their announcement later in the week.

ShyMets

Well I see the main Covid thread is a cornucopia of joy today.

Somewhat glad some of the posters on there aren't running the country. We literally wouldn't be leaving our houses for the next three months

JRant

CruelSummer wrote: »

Did you expect teacher's to somehow have the super human capabilities of beaming a hologram of themselves into each and every home of multiple children during Lockdown 1, and oversee each and every one of their tasks individually and simultaneously? These 'teachers' with their extraordinary abilities seem to really be sitting back, while the poor parents actually had to try and educate, while given very clear guidelines from a Professional. And still they failed miserably.
Young children cannot sit and listen on Zoom, ever tried it with them?

Those pesky Unions calling for testing and tracing. It's not as if Joe Public are looking for scapegoats and wouldn't be first to the national media to complain about how 'unsafe' schools are if they reopen. How 10 people in class X are coughing and spreading the virus to the 90 year old around the corner...
There are even posters during the last Level 5 thinking of reporting teachers for 'singing' in their classrooms...

They don't need magical powers to do any of what you described. My own daughter had ZERO face time with her teacher from March to June. A weekly email with page numbers was about as advanced as it got.

I know other parents in different schools who had the exact opposite experience and the teachers were online all day communicating and help the children.

The problem is there were/are no guidelines as to what is the acceptable standard. I envisage Plan B will be just more of Plan A.

sprucemoose

ShyMets wrote: »

We literally wouldn't be leaving our houses for the next three months

nah two would be enough probably

CruelSummer

JRant wrote: »

So do I but it would be yet another massive failing by the government and particularly the DES who have repeatedly let both students and teachers down this past 10 months.

Of course, it won't come to that and teachers will not be on any type of PUP. However, what we will be left with is a completely nonstandardised approach to teaching depending on the school/teacher with little to no guidance from the DES.

They won't even have the decency to give parents, pupils and teachers time to act before making their announcement later in the week.

I think DOE should push the blended learning button option now and take in half the numbers onsite at school on a rota basis while cases are so high. It would at least keep children in touch with their class teachers and school, and would definitely stop any big slide in standards which will inevitably happen as January is usually a month where a huge amount of work is covered.
Not sure NPHET would go for blended learning as it involves school drop offs, teachers onsite, etc. But it is the least worst option in my opinion.
The biggest issue is testing, all procedures to keep schools opened involved policy and procedures put in place if a case/suspected case arises at a school. If as Paul Reid suggested this morning, testing may have to be 'prioritised' in the coming weeks, and these cases couldn't get a test - a lot of the ground work and procedures in place in schools to keep them open goes out the window. They need priority, that way you could argue they could do blended approach for January, full reopen for Feb onwards.

Ace2007

CruelSummer wrote: »

Well if that's the case, I hope teacher's sit back, relax and enjoy their time on PUP. Time to sit on boards.ie all day long on PUP and start slagging off other sections of the public service instead of offering solutions, or heck even joining the teaching profession as they have it so easy.
It's as if schools closing are somehow their fault. Teachers have worked all the way through, and the majority don't want them closed. But the chip on the shoulder brigade would turn even those who want them open against the idea. First in line to complain at the school I'm sure if there's a missed case if testing cannot be carried out on symptomatic people.

Is it the fault of anyone in the private sector who lost their job or is stuck on pup either? Why is it fair that they suffer financially but teachers and any other PS workers that find themselves unable to work get full pay and pension accrual.

People just want as much equality as possible. Once we get over Covid, and the next election - there will be more taxes to pay back all the money borrowed, why is it fair that private sector works pay the same level as tax as PS who didn't suffer any of the cuts?

That's the argument plain and simple. Why don't the government just pay the private sector workers their full wage instead of the pup?

GreeBo

Silentcorner wrote: »

OK "chief", let me make this very clear...I spend as little time on social media as I can as it is full of sanctimonious idiots who have bought wholesale into the hysteria currently being pumped into the population day in day out.

What you can't seem to fathom it is probably people with broken legs that are catching this virus whilst in hospital that are driving the numbers, my own relative caught in whilst in an isolation room in hospital.

I don't know why regions around the world are reacting the way they are, like I don't know the reason there hasn't been developed a rapid, cheap, accurate testing kits which allow many of us return to normality safely... I don't know why we are not focused on therapeutics...it's like the only way out of this are vaccines that have been developed in record time.

I don't know what is going on, but as previously pointed out to you...the world is headed to a financial and economic devastation that will do a lot more damage than the virus has since it got here!!!

Ah, so you are one of the global conspiracy fellas?

Btw, can you show me where we are hiding the 500000 hospital beds it would take to deliver 5k infections per day?

GreeBo

SusieBlue wrote: »

66 of the 101 deaths in December were from hospital outbreaks and nursing homes. Any comment on that?

Breaking news:
People in hospitals and nursing homes are already sick and dying.

GreeBo

TallyRand wrote: »

Here and largely around the world, the lockdowns is basically politics at work.......total hysteria.

A 99.7% recovery rate virus that, lets be straight here, Only really affects very old or people with underlying issues and the prevention method is ludicrous lockdowns. Definitely going to be case study on reactions and affects on a mass scale to normally fairly rational people

You are confusing survival rate with recovery rate, educate yourself.

GreeBo

growleaves wrote: »

You were desperate to ban Christmas and stung when you were rebuked by so many people.

The public are increasingly unimpressed and many have twigged that they might as well use their brief windows of freedom to the full between sandwich-lockdowns.

You will be back next year trying to cancel Christmas again on one pretext or another.

You have one trick in your bag of tricks, which is to agitate to close down businesses and force people into isolation then claim it is never safe to come out.

That same public who are testing positive at a rate of 5k a day, those guys yeah?
I can't believe the government which in to the bedrooms and infected then all.

So, still waiting on a single credible reason we to why you think the government, nphet, HSE or this particular poster would want a lockdown?
Who benefits from a lockdown?
You reckon it's a sneaky play by the government to..... What exactly? Piss off the voting public?

Perhaps they are being selfish and trying to keep all the elderly FFG courts alive a bit longer?

Kermit.de.frog

growleaves wrote: »

You were desperate to ban Christmas and stung when you were rebuked by so many people.

The public are increasingly unimpressed and many have twigged that they might as well use their brief windows of freedom to the full between sandwich-lockdowns.

You will be back next year trying to cancel Christmas again on one pretext or another.

You have one trick in your bag of tricks, which is to agitate to close down businesses and force people into isolation then claim it is never safe to come out.

It's amazing how factual and true this isn't.