Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

walus

46 Long wrote: »

People have had it up to here with this ridiculous charade. A nation of five million people living in lockdown because of 30 people in ICUs.

Of course, because the deaths will follow, right hmmm?

I wonder how many lives have been saved by these level 5 restriction at the cost of 1.5 bn...

road_high

walus wrote: »

Of course, because the deaths will follow, right hmmm?

I wonder how many lives have been saved by these level 5 restriction at the cost of 1.5 bn...

We had a TCD Ivory tower academic on Primetime the other night- could not quantify whatsoever the supposed “value” of closing the likes of shops and restaurants (this was a Scientist folks- hellbent recommending measures she could not quantify)...- if I stood up in front of customers recommending them to do something and could not quantify the benefits I’d be rightly laughed out of the room.
But she empathised with them which was clearly made it all worth it. Wonder if she will ever be on the PUP?

funnydoggy

FintanMcluskey

road_high wrote: »

We had a TCD Ivory tower academic on Primetime the other night- could not quantify whatsoever the supposed “value” of closing the likes of shops and restaurants (this was a Scientist folks- hellbent recommending measures she could not quantify)...- if I stood up in front of customers recommending them to do something and could not quantify the benefits I’d be rightly laughed out of the room.
But she empathised with them which was clearly made it all worth it. Wonder if she will ever be on the PUP?

I’m astounded at the lack of accountability for what they are saying.

It’s perhaps the greatest distinction between the private and public sector.

An apprentice tradesman will be held at far greater accountability than those overpaid peacocks

road_high

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I’m astounded at the lack of accountability for what they are saying.

It’s perhaps the greatest distinction between the private and public sector.

An apprentice tradesman will be held at far greater accountability than those overpaid peacocks

And what’s more of it was going to cost them a shed load of lost money for no appreciable benefit I’d likely be lynched. But it’s fine for these lot as you say. Some scientist

DellyBelly

Minute I saw this headline https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/coronavirus-funeral-video-shows-large-crowd-in-breach-of-level-5-rules-1.4415039 I knew what part of society was involved. Pavee point come out to condemn this.. Yeah right. Another reason restrictions won't be easing any time soon..

normanoffside

According to this, only 64 of our current hospitalised cases came into Hospital with covid.

The other 211 acquired it in hospital.

So yeah, it's the fault of the young ones drinking on South William street or the people trying to make a living going to work?


https://twitter.com/RiochtConor2/status/1330122887785828352

patnor1011

Someone new, preferably not politically aligned ie without the baggage should start new anti lockdown and anti restriction party.
I will bet good money they score so high in the next election we may finaly get some change we really need after decades of all the same FFG trickery.
SF is way too far left and pretty much the same than FFGto be ever taken as a change from old guard for real.

road_high

patnor1011 wrote: »

Someone new, preferably not politically aligned ie without the baggage should start new anti lockdown and anti restriction party.
I will bet good money they score so high in the next election we may finaly get some change we really need after decades of all the same FFG trickery.
SF is way too far left and pretty much the same than FFGto be ever taken as a change from old guard for real.

I’d vote for them in a heartbeat. This dwarfs all other issues for me as it’s so fundamental to everything else going forward

facehugger99

normanoffside wrote: »

According to this, only 64 of our current hospitalised cases came into Hospital with covid.

The other 211 acquired it in hospital.

So yeah, it's the fault of the young ones drinking on South William street or the people trying to make a living going to work?


https://twitter.com/RiochtConor2/status/1330122887785828352

I would love to see a legal challenge to the restrictions from some of the so called non-essential sectors.

They have had their businesses destroyed to distract attention from the chronic mismanagement of the HSE.

patnor1011

‘No evidence’ that asymptomatic Covid-19 cases were infectious, analysis of post-lockdown Wuhan concludes

A paper that analyzed the results of a massive post-lockdown Covid-19 testing drive that included nearly every eligible resident of Wuhan, China has found no evidence that positive cases without symptoms spread the disease.
The analysis, published in the scientific journal Nature, looked at the results of a screening initiative held between May and June in Wuhan, the city where the first cases of the novel coronavirus were detected in late 2019. The origins of the virus have yet to be determined, with new studies suggesting that the disease could have been in Italy as early as September last year.

Nearly 10 million people were tested, consisting of 92 percent of all residents aged six years or older.

Incredibly, no new symptomatic cases were registered, and only 300 asymptomatic cases were detected. Subsequent tests of 1,174 close contacts of the asymptomatic cases found resulted in no new positives.

There is “no evidence that the identified asymptomatic positive cases were infectious,” the paper said, adding that the results of the massive screening program could help health authorities “adjust prevention and control strategies in the post-lockdown period.”

The analysis seems to confirm preliminary findings that were released during the screening program. Professor Lu Zuxun, from Wuhan’s Huazhong University of Science & Technology, said back in June that there was currently no evidence that asymptomatic people were passing the virus to other people, but cautioned at the time against drawing broad conclusions.

The paper’s authors acknowledged that previous studies had found evidence that asymptomatic individuals were infectious and could become symptomatic later, but theorized that Wuhan residents still testing positive for the virus after the city’s strict lockdown had a “low quantity of viral loads” and therefore were unable to pass the illness on to other people.

Wuhan was placed under a strict lockdown lasting more than 70 days. The tight regulations essentially cut off the city from the rest of China, with only one person from each household allowed to leave their residential compound for a maximum of two hours.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w

Someone needs to let Tony know....

_Kaiser_

^^ that sounds like a fundamental game changer, no?

If anyone who is asymptomatic doesn't spread it then it makes any argument for lockdown or indeed almost all of the restrictions even more untenable.

The approach then would need to be that anyone with symptoms isolates and calls their GP to arrange a test. Everyone else gets back to normal.

Or am I missing something?

Quantum Erasure

patnor1011 wrote: »

Someone new, preferably not politically aligned ie without the baggage should start new anti lockdown and anti restriction party.
I will bet good money they score so high in the next election we may finaly get some change we really need after decades of all the same FFG trickery.
SF is way too far left and pretty much the same than FFGto be ever taken as a change from old guard for real.

If were still in lockdown by the next election, we'll be ****ed one way or the other

Whatsisname

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

^^ that sounds like a fundamental game changer, no?

If anyone who is asymptomatic doesn't spread it then it makes any argument for lockdown or indeed almost all of the restrictions even more untenable.

The approach then would need to be that anyone with symptoms isolates and calls their GP to arrange a test. Everyone else gets back to normal.

Or am I missing something?

The W.H.O said in June that they think asymptomatic transmission is very rare. They immediately backtracked the next day after a hysterical response by the media.

acequion

Gervais08 wrote: »

My father’s nursing home we’re responsible for 90% of the cases in our entire county one week.

We did everything right and they let that virus in which killed him and four other residents.

And they blame pubs and people going the shops ???,

I'm really sorry for your loss Gervais08. I think you're in my county and I think I know the nursing home in question and it really is beyond disgraceful that you and others are losing loved ones to this disease a full 8 months on from the first nursing home crisis. I fully share the anger that has been posted here at the HSE, Dr Death and NPHET, who I despise. Not least for their arrogance and their manipulative blame game on ordinary people who just want to get on with their lives.

It's heartening to see so many posters here condemn them outright and condemn these disproportionate restrictions which are mostly useless and very damaging.

froog

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

^^ that sounds like a fundamental game changer, no?

If anyone who is asymptomatic doesn't spread it then it makes any argument for lockdown or indeed almost all of the restrictions even more untenable.

The approach then would need to be that anyone with symptoms isolates and calls their GP to arrange a test. Everyone else gets back to normal.

Or am I missing something?

i mean we had that and more in level 3 and it didn't work.

JRant

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

^^ that sounds like a fundamental game changer, no?

If anyone who is asymptomatic doesn't spread it then it makes any argument for lockdown or indeed almost all of the restrictions even more untenable.

The approach then would need to be that anyone with symptoms isolates and calls their GP to arrange a test. Everyone else gets back to normal.

Or am I missing something?

Complete game changer in the sense that we should just go back to the tried and trusted method of diagnosing an illness, ie. a clinical diagnosis and then a test. No symptoms = no tests.

JRant

froog wrote: »

i mean we had that and more in level 3 and it didn't work.

How so?
We got nowhere near the numbers in hospital to warrant a lockdown. At most we had a 400 people in hospital and around 40 in ICU. That was with 1200 "cases" a day.

Stormyteacup

froog wrote: »

i mean we had that and more in level 3 and it didn't work.

But if this study is trustworthy (different debate), then anyone traced as a close contact who is asymptomatic need not be tested or restrict movements as they would be a danger to no one. End of chain.

That’s if I understand it correctly.

I can’t see how asymptomatic and presymtomatic cases be distinguished from one another?

Although if they could pinpoint the threshold of viral load below which you will not transmit the virus, then that would be of enormous benefit. You wouldn’t need to know if someone was presymptomatic or asymptomatic - just apply current methods for track, trace and restrict for higher than threshold viral load. You would need to do a second test at an interval to see if viral load is increasing or not - if not, end of chain, free to go.

Not possible to do with our current set up, but in China where their Covid systems are not under pressure and if we could rely on their findings - and they discover an accepted threshold limit, then surely that would drastically alter policies to minimise spread.

JRant

Stormyteacup wrote: »

But if this study is trustworthy (different debate), then anyone traced as a close contact who is asymptomatic need not be tested or restrict movements as they would be a danger to no one. End of chain.

That’s if I understand it correctly.

I can’t see how asymptomatic and presymtomatic cases be distinguished from one another?

Although if they could pinpoint the threshold of viral load below which you will not transmit the virus, then that would be of enormous benefit. You wouldn’t need to know if someone was presymptomatic or asymptomatic - just apply current methods for track, trace and restrict for higher than threshold viral load. You would need to do a second test at an interval to see if viral load is increasing or not - if not, end of chain, free to go.

Not possible to do with our current set up, but in China where their Covid systems are not under pressure and if we could rely on their findings - and they discover an accepted threshold limit, then surely that would drastically alter policies to minimise spread.

My understanding was asymptomatic never show signs of infection while presymptomatic develop symptoms after X number of days. The evidence to say presymptomatic people spread the disease is not concrete at all.

CruelSummer

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/private-texts-sent-by-tony-holohan-to-donnelly-day-before-nphets-level-5-lockdown-recommendation-are-revealed-39775043.html

“ Nphet's advice that Sunday evening to go to Level 5 for four weeks was controversially rejected by the Coalition on Monday, October 5.

However, the worsening case numbers forced ministers to eventually accept Nphet's advice two weeks later and impose Level 5 restrictions for six weeks.”

Looks like another hit job article on the Government & Stephen Donnelly ahead of crucial decisions.
Donnelly seems next to useless and not heavily involved in decision making. But why would anyone want to leak or obtain this information now. Now we’ve a week of he said this/he said that - when no one gives a dam.
I’m suspicious Holohan also has ‘information’ on Varadkar and Martin also from their time as Ministers of health. Which is why I think call a General Election, we can’t be led by people being held to ransom by a group of advisory doctors.

CruelSummer

And while I’m here, this article is stating Holohan wants to extend Level 5.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/christmas-decisions-looming-as-tensions-grow-39775018.html

Good Lord, can someone disband NPHET? Indefinite lockdown until there’s a vaccine is Dr Holohan’s only card and he’s played it twice on the public now.

NIMAN

There is not a chance of L5 being extended, the Gov would be signing their own death warrant for the next election.

The people are expecting to be able to go do Xmas shopping etc come 2nd Dec, and I can't see the Gov stopping them.

Dr Tony will just have to bite his tongue.

CruelSummer

NIMAN wrote: »

There is not a chance of L5 being extended, the Gov would be signing their own death warrant for the next election.

The people are expecting to be able to go do Xmas shopping etc come 2nd Dec, and I can't see the Gov stopping them.

Dr Tony will just have to bite his tongue.

I just read the full article - it seems that’s what Dr Holohan is ‘thinking’ but the Government are thinking differently. Will we have the media vilifying the Government ‘for going against NPHET’ once again? This could get very messy. Especially with members of NPHET and also the Nutty Professor group (McConkey, Killeen, Ryan, Staines, Scally) constantly on the airwaves and social media platforms hounding us with lockdown, Zero Covid and other unachievable nonsense.

facehugger99

JRant wrote: »

Complete game changer in the sense that we should just go back to the tried and trusted method of diagnosing an illness, ie. a clinical diagnosis and then a test. No symptoms = no tests.

Also, no symptom = no case.

This nonsense of counting people as 'cases', splashing it as a headline and using it to justify lockdowns, needs to stop immediately.

MadYaker

CruelSummer wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/private-texts-sent-by-tony-holohan-to-donnelly-day-before-nphets-level-5-lockdown-recommendation-are-revealed-39775043.html

“ Nphet's advice that Sunday evening to go to Level 5 for four weeks was controversially rejected by the Coalition on Monday, October 5.

However, the worsening case numbers forced ministers to eventually accept Nphet's advice two weeks later and impose Level 5 restrictions for six weeks.”

Looks like another hit job article on the Government & Stephen Donnelly ahead of crucial decisions.
Donnelly seems next to useless and not heavily involved in decision making. But why would anyone want to leak or obtain this information now. Now we’ve a week of he said this/he said that - when no one gives a dam.
I’m suspicious Holohan also has ‘information’ on Varadkar and Martin also from their time as Ministers of health. Which is why I think call a General Election, we can’t be led by people being held to ransom by a group of advisory doctors.

Any evidence of that or did you just dream it up? :pac: If you honestly that is likely your logical reasoning skills need work. But then again, this is the restrictions thread :rolleyes:

drunkmonkey

NIMAN wrote: »

There is not a chance of L5 being extended, the Gov would be signing their own death warrant for the next election.

There's absolutely every chance. Sam McConkey is talking levels 6 - 10.
Our dear leaders will take mountains of debt over ignoring health advice every time.

GazzaL

It's clear at this stage that an increasing majority of people are just getting on with their lives.

dalyboy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There's absolutely every chance. Sam McConkey is talking levels 6 - 10.
Our dear leaders will take mountains of debt over ignoring health advice every time.

Whose listening to Mcdonkey anymore ?

He’s a conspiracy quack with his wild notions of 80-120k deaths back at the start. He’s an out and out pseudoscientist with his outrageous claims.

Level 8 ? Is that where we are all forcibly tied up in our houses being fed intravenously (for our own protection in case get a virus with 0.27% chance of us dying of)

drunkmonkey

The media are hedging their bets, he's been trotted out a few times this week. 3 options on the table, no easing of restrictions, some easing of restrictions or an increase of restrictions.
NPHET will be calling for more restrictions as Level 5 hasn't had the effect they wanted. Don't rule it out the kite flying has started.