Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Tork

Tork wrote: »

Everyone hates these restrictions. Unfortunately, they're the only game in town and that isn't going to change no matter what anyone says. We're going to have to put up with this crap until numbers drop. I suppose venting on boards, all day, every day gives some people here a purpose. I get the irony of my posting here too but there are people here who seem to have nothing better to do with their lives.

Not everybody hates restrictions.

There was a poster on here just a few weeks ago that said he loves it. Saving lots of money, no commute, spending more time with his family.

He admitted he didn’t care that people were suffering because somebody always has to suffer.

He’s certainly not alone. Lots of people wouldn’t admit it out straight. I actually kind of respect that he was so honest.

growleaves

Deleted User wrote: »

And the denizens of the restrictions thread have far more self awareness on their inherent biases than a world of scientists who have a long established method for weeding out bias

If you're going to get offended every time someone suggests something that runs contra to the 'official' hypotheses of the international scientific bureaucracy then that does not scream "open-minded" to me.

You have rubbished any scientist or MD with a different opinion as a know-nothing quack because it doesn't suit the claim that there is an iron-clad consensus from no which no reasonable scientist departs.

Appeal to authority is a widely-recognised logical fallacy. I'm not over-awed, especially in light of your deployment of bizarre tactics of discrediting and ridicule in lieu of welcoming intellectual inquiry (no matter how counterintuitive). Would you really be engaged in all that if you were confident? I think not.

growleaves

tigger123 wrote: »

Is there any source for NPHET saying Level 5 until May? I haven't seen it anywhere.

Covid restrictions could be needed until May unless numbers decrease, Nphet member says

Lundstram

Lundstram wrote: »

Some people are happy to sit on their holes all day long doing absolutely nothing, apart from finger wagging. That’s their choice.

Others love the outdoors and hate being cooped up. I don’t blame these people in Wicklow at all. More power to them. Fresh air and exercise is great for the head and overall health. Walking, cycling or running along main roads is dangerous, particularly in the countryside.

I hope none of them pay the fines and take it all the way to court and win.

Have to say I’ve lost all respect for Gardaí. Overpaid government puppets.

I’m not sure how the Covid fines are working but surely there will be a lot of admin involved.

I imagine they’ll end up a huge list of appeals etc and it will be unmanageable.

Like the Irish rail tickets. Appeal your fine and you buy yourself at least 4 months before they can process your appeal.

Boggles

Keyzer wrote: »

That's only one county. Over Sat and Sun in Wicklow alone it was 170.

Even if we say the average number of people per county fined was 40, we have 26 counties. That's over a 1000 people.

Its not an extraordinarily ridiculous claim from the OP.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gardai-fine-hundreds-breaching-covid-19-restrictions-across-ireland-over-weekend-1066128.html

So you have proof of 237 fines.

Cool.

Come back to me when you have proof of "thousands".

tigger123

growleaves wrote: »

Covid restrictions could be needed until May unless numbers decrease, Nphet member says

That article says there may be a need for restrictions in the coming months, but it doesn't say Level 5 restrictions.

Keyzer

Dempo1 wrote: »

Just amazes me that still after some shocking numbers of deaths and cases over the past 3 weeks, people still NOT getting it, 3 weeks of utter greed and stupidity has led to this,ALL the medical experts agree, gosh even Leaky Leo eating humble pie. Listen to the MEDICAL experts, it's NOT rocket science.

Fully agree...

Dempo1 wrote: »

Far to much is being made out of the vaccine roll out, its wonderful but will have little impact for months and still absolutely no evidence it lessons chance of transmission.

Disagree...

Vaccine roll out should be much more aggressive. The sooner the better. Yes, it will take time (given two jabs are needed for maximum efficacy) but we should be much more proactive and aggressive.

Vaccines don't lesson the chance of transmission, it will still be there, circulating. That's not how a vaccine works.

Keyzer

Boggles wrote: »

So you have proof of 237 fines.

Cool.

Come back to me when you have proof of "thousands".

Will do, I have my top reporters working on gathering the evidence you need.

growleaves

tigger123 wrote: »

That article says there may be a need for restrictions in the coming months, but it doesn't say Level 5 restrictions.

You are totally correct but my understanding from the below paragraph was that they were talking about a continuation of the present restrictions, but I see there is no unambiguous statement of that kind.

Hospitals were under significant pressure at present, said Dr Favier. If numbers were not reduced then restrictions would have to remain in place. “We’re still going to be in this situation until March, April or May,” she warned.

Kunta Kinte

Deleted User wrote: »

Should be but it won’t be.

I have always believed that eventually the rest of Europe will embarrass us into having to leave lockdown.

Either that or finances collapsing. Or people just completely giving up.

So you seem to be under the impression that the rest of Europe will be easing their comparable and indeed in some cases stricter level of restrictions much sooner than we in Ireland will. Based on what evidence?

growleaves

growleaves wrote: »

Covid restrictions could be needed until May unless numbers decrease, Nphet member says

So an individuals opinion rather than NPHET policy?

growleaves

Deleted User wrote: »

So an individuals opinion rather than NPHET policy?

I take her to be a spokesman for NPHET since she is speaking to the media in her role as a member. I suppose it is possible she is playing some kind of committee politics to try to out-flank other members of NPHET. It hadn't even occurred to me until now.

Kunta Kinte

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s a risk they might have to take.

Ever gotten a fine before? Normally there has to be an appeal process.

I’m sure anyone that really doesn’t want to pay the fine won’t have to.

For fixed charge notices there is no appeal process. Pay the fine within 28 days or face increased penalties.

growleaves

growleaves wrote: »

If you're going to get offended every time someone suggests something that runs contra to the 'official' hypotheses of the international scientific bureaucracy then that does not scream "open-minded" to me.

You have rubbished any scientist or MD with a different opinion as a know-nothing quack because it doesn't suit the claim that there is an iron-clad consensus from no which no reasonable scientist departs.

Appeal to authority is a widely-recognised logical fallacy. I'm not over-awed, especially in light of your deployment of bizarre tactics of discrediting and ridicule in lieu of welcoming intellectual inquiry (no matter how counterintuitive). Would you really be engaged in all that if you were confident? I think not.

Impressive rant. Not based on anything I have said however.

Those who I have rubbished - (Yeadon, Cummings, Levitt, Hodgkinson etc.) have being engaged in thinly disguised polemic based on flawed logic and deliberate misrepresentations. There is no scientific research it their mutterings.

There are publications that do present real data challenging assumptions on the pandemic, but these tend to be too nuanced for the contrarian rhetoric to actually pick up on.

growleaves

growleaves wrote: »

I take her to be a spokesman for NPHET since she is speaking to the media in her role as a member. I suppose it is possible she is playing some kind of committee politics to try to out-flank other members of NPHET. It hadn't even occurred to me until now.

It may be the case - but even if you look at the headline - "may be need if numbers don't decrease". If there are still 3,000 cases and 100 admissions per day come may, its not an unreasonable position to take that restriction may still be required.

Kunta Kinte

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

So you seem to be under the impression that the rest of Europe will be easing their comparable and indeed in some cases stricter level of restrictions much sooner than we in Ireland will. Based on what evidence?

Were you alive between last May and October?

Most of Europe was open while Ireland was not.
Our Taoiseach admitted we had the longest and harshest lockdown in Europe.

There are still lots of places in Europe where lockdown allows hospitality to be open.

Seriously, Was that a real question?

Captain_Crash

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

For fixed charge notices there is no appeal process. Pay the fine within 28 days or face increased penalties.

That’s because you have to accept the fixed charge notice by paying. A person is within their rights to not pay and have the case heard in court instead, a de facto appeal so to speak. The amount could be higher in court, but equally the case could also be thrown out.

Kunta Kinte

Deleted User wrote: »

Were you alive between last May and October?

Most of Europe was open while Ireland was not.
Our Taoiseach admitted we had the longest and harshest lockdown in Europe.

There are still lots of places in Europe where lockdown allows hospitality to be open.

Seriously, Was that a real question?

For example? And yeah that is a real question. Also I`m not interested in what may or may not have happened between last May and October. Totally different sItiuation throughout Europe and much of the rest of the world now. But then you know that.

Kunta Kinte

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

For example? And yeah that is a real question. Also I`m not interested in what may or may not have happened between last May and October. Totally different sItiuation throughout Europe and much of the rest of the world now. But then you know that.

Sweden, Norway, Finland, Switzerland, parts of Spain, Portugal, Italy.
And that’s just for now.

I can assure you that they’ll all be open before Ireland opens pubs.

Just like last year.

Rodin

It's great to see rules being enforced.
Far too much non-enforcement in the country of many laws/rules.

People do what you let them away with.
These people fined clearly had no fear of being caught/repurcussions.

Kunta Kinte

Captain_Crash wrote: »

That’s because you have to accept the fixed charge notice by paying. A person is within their rights to not pay and have the case heard in court instead, a de facto appeal so to speak. The amount could be higher in court, but equally the case could also be thrown out.

Could be, maybe yada yada.. Do you really think most offenders will take their chances in court of their case being thrown out?

growleaves

Rodin wrote: »

It's great to see rules being enforced.
Far too much non-enforcement in the country of many laws/rules.

People do what you let them away with.
These people fined clearly had no fear of being caught/repurcussions.

One of the fines was for a woman walking along a beach alone by herself.

Who was she going to infect in the sea air with no one around assuming she was even sick?

It is often easier to evoke phantoms than to banish them. This micro-policing may be with us for some time.

Kunta Kinte

Deleted User wrote: »

Sweden, Norway, Finland, Switzerland, parts of Spain, Portugal, Italy.
And that’s just for now.

I can assure you that they’ll all be open before Ireland opens pubs.

Just like last year.

Ah so your anti restrictions comments are actually more related to pubs not reopening any time soon than anything else? The penny has dropped.

Captain_Crash

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

For example? And yeah that is a real question. Also I`m not interested in what may or may not have happened between last May and October. Totally different sItiuation throughout Europe and much of the rest of the world now. But then you know that.

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

Ah so your anti restrictions comments are actually more related to pubs not reopening any time soon than anything else? The penny has dropped.

One of the countries that is at the top of the premier league table that MM was quick to blab on about when our numbers looked good in Nov is Finland.

Whats closed?? almost nothing. They have based their approach on encouraging hygiene, social distancing and general public awareness. Unlike here, they have not removed the fabric of general social society and deamonised people living a life for nearly a year.

This means they are less likely to go nuts because shopping, restaurants, cinemas etc have always been open, and there is no threat of them being closed. The restrictions on businesses are on capacity not industry (lets not be pedantic, there are some exceptions of course). For want of a better word, the approach there has worked because it has been consistent, they took an approach, trusted it and stuck to it.

Rodin

growleaves wrote: »

One of the fines was for a woman walking along a beach alone by herself.

Who was she going to infect in the sea air with no one around assuming she was even sick?

It is often easier to evoke phantoms than to banish them. This micro-policing may be with us for some time.

I hadn't realised the 5km distance had caveats.
Are you really arguing that we should allow people to exercise their judgement? We see now what a mess that has landed us in.
Micro-policing? Just policing to me. We need much more of it. Much more enforcement of rules.

JMNolan

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

Ah so your anti restrictions comments are actually more related to pubs not reopening any time soon than anything else? The penny has dropped.

Hate to see people personalize the issue when they can't make any counterpoint, poor way of debating issues.

growleaves

Rodin wrote: »

I hadn't realised the 5km distance had caveats.
Are you really arguing that we should allow people to exercise their judgement? We see now what a mess that has landed us in.
Micro-policing? Just policing to me. We need much more of it. Much more enforcement of rules.

Yes. We need to make the restrictions voluntary.

We need less rules (the multiplication of rules leads to incoherence and confuses people, especially with the constant changing of the rules) and less enforcement.

walus

Just wondering if we are going to get same level of transparency as they enjoy in Norway:

"NORWAY’S HEALTH REGULATOR has said that common side effects may have contributed to the deaths of 23 elderly people who are frail after they received the Covid-19 vaccine."

https://www.thejournal.ie/norway-vaccine-elderly-patients-5326967-Jan2021/

Rodin

growleaves wrote: »

Yes. We need to make the restrictions voluntary.

We need less rules (the multiplication of rules leads to incoherence and confuses people, especially with the constant changing of the rules) and less enforcement.

What part of "don't go further than 5km for exercise" is confusing?
If that confuses people then I contend they really can't be trusted to make good judgements.

growleaves

Rodin wrote: »

What part of "don't go further than 5km for exercise" is confusing?
If that confuses people then I contend they really can't be trusted to make good judgements.

The part where you go further than 5km.

What's confusing is that there are so many rules, they contradict each other and don't cohere, and they keep changing.