Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Captain_Crash

Stormyteacup wrote: »

This is interesting. I wonder if they have enough staying power to exhaust Irish judicial system as I can’t see them getting a result here.

It will certainly be interesting and I'm intrigued to find out the governments defense. We have the proportionality test in Ireland which I foresee coming into the mix. Basically, the government will have to be able to display the actions taken are proportionate to the risk.

A debate on that would need its own thread, but I'm interested to know how the government feel restrictions are proportionate and what data set they used to arrive at that conclusion. The High Court is different to a press conference, if you make a claim you have to back it up so lets see what happens.

SAMTALK

dalyboy wrote: »

He was out on his numbers by 60 times the actual death numbers.
So because other “experts” got it so wrong it’s a free pass ?

Back at the early stages no one knew what was around the corner

hindsight is a wonderful thing isnt it

Penfailed

dalyboy wrote: »

He was out on his numbers by 60 times the actual death numbers.
So because other “experts” got it so wrong it’s a free pass ?

They ALL got it wrong at the start.

Seweryn

Deleted User wrote: »

Someone will be along soon to tell you that closing pubs obviously prevented those 118000 deaths.

Well, to be honest I can't even find their claimed 2k deaths (or 1700 up to that point in time), never mind 100k.

dalyboy

SAMTALK wrote: »

Back at the early stages no one knew what was around the corner

hindsight is a wonderful thing isnt it

Forget hindsight.

Restrictions were introduced as a direct consequence of these models.
Where has accountability gone in Ireland?

BeefeaterHat

SAMTALK wrote: »

Back at the early stages no one knew what was around the corner

hindsight is a wonderful thing isnt it

Well why are we doing the exact same thing as we did in the early stages despite the gift of hindsight?

SAMTALK

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

Well why are we doing the exact same thing as we did in the early stages despite the gift of hindsight?

Maybe the restrictions worked ? And to be fair we are not doing the exact same things now.

There is way more movement now than back in March / April. People are moving about and mixing more

_Kaiser_

Penfailed wrote: »

Ah, c'mon. Those figures bandied about at the start were based on inaccurate modelling. He wasn't the only one to do so. It was similar all over the world. It's cheap point scoring.

Except he, NPHET and the Government are still using these (thankfully!) wildly overstated numbers and risk assessments as a basis to justify the measures 9 months later.

Look at the reality in the perspective of a population of 5 million people.. minimal ICU cases, minimal deaths (2000, most of whom died WITH CV-19, not because of it, and half of whom were the direct result of mismanagement around nursing homes), many people only realise they have this "deadly virus" when they're told they tested positive, and the way we test people in the first place is questionable itself.

What's also come to light is Tony H's crusade against alcohol (as evidenced by the seminar in March he insisted could go ahead) and he's leveraging this "crisis" to push that agenda

polesheep

SAMTALK wrote: »

Maybe the restrictions worked ? And to be fair we are not doing the exact same things now.

There is way more movement now than back in March / April. People are moving about and mixing more

In defiance of the restrictions that are still in place.

BeefeaterHat

SAMTALK wrote: »

Maybe the restrictions worked ? And to be fair we are not doing the exact same things now.

There is way more movement now than back in March / April. People are moving about and mixing more

The restrictions worked because people thought covid killed 3-4% of people who caught it and hospitalized a fifth. Now we know that's not the case so why are we still taking the sledgehammer approach? Also considering the cost of restrictions in terms of jobs and national debt they'd want to bloody work to be blunt.

FintanMcluskey

Penfailed wrote: »

Ah, c'mon. Those figures bandied about at the start were based on inaccurate modelling. He wasn't the only one to do so. It was similar all over the world. It's cheap point scoring.

Ah, c’mon.

Those very models are still being used to justify the EUs longest and strictest policy.

You seem to miss the point a lot.

It’s not cheap point scoring, it’s calling out bull****

Ginger n Lemon

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Ah, c’mon.

Those very models are still being used to justify the EUs longest and strictest policy.

You seem to miss the point a lot.

It’s not cheap point scoring, it’s calling out bull****

Penfailed missing the point? ah no

FintanMcluskey

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

The restrictions worked because people thought covid killed 3-4% of people who caught it and hospitalized a fifth. Now we know that's not the case so why are we still taking the sledgehammer approach? Also considering the cost of restrictions in terms of jobs and national debt they'd want to bloody work to be blunt.

Using the initial figures is the equivalent of a mechanic using a dodgy oil pressure gauge and knowing it’s faulty.

The engine oil pressure isn’t low, but his gauge says it is so he must keep replacing the oil pump at all costs.

The lack of responsibility is vexing

Rrrrrr2

SAMTALK wrote: »

Maybe the restrictions worked ? And to be fair we are not doing the exact same things now.

There is way more movement now than back in March / April. People are moving about and mixing more

Right we must have full cost benefit analysis figures published and presented to us now- it’s too late and completely inadequate to be told “restrictions worked” without hard quantifiable figures. The asks and cost being forced on certain people are far too great for anything less

SAMTALK

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Right we must have full cost benefit analysis figures published and presented to us now- it’s too late and completely inadequate to be told “restrictions worked” without hard quantifiable figures. The asks and cost being forced on certain people are far too great for anything less

Look I'm as tired and fed up as anyone and want things to go back to normal as soon as possible, but people saying government and NPHET are wrong and trying to close down pubs, get people to tow the line, it's all a hoax etc is wearing

Every country is doing what needs to be done for themselves and everyone of them are doing it based on their own country and not on what others are doing.

Ok I question a lot of things they are throwing out but come on do people seriously think they are not trying to do whats best for the country

SAMTALK

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

The restrictions worked because people thought covid killed 3-4% of people who caught it and hospitalized a fifth. Now we know that's not the case so why are we still taking the sledgehammer approach? Also considering the cost of restrictions in terms of jobs and national debt they'd want to bloody work to be blunt.

Maybe it wasnt the case because of the restrictions ?

facehugger99

The restrictions worked in the same way that burning down the house sorted the rodent issue.

SAMTALK

facehugger99 wrote: »

The restrictions worked in the same way that burning down the house sorted the rodent issue.

So what would you have done

FintanMcluskey

SAMTALK wrote: »

So what would you have done

Set traps I imagine

Rrrrrr2

SAMTALK wrote: »

Look I'm as tired and fed up as anyone and want things to go back to normal as soon as possible, but people saying government and NPHET are wrong and trying to close down pubs, get people to tow the line, it's all a hoax etc is wearing

Every country is doing what needs to be done for themselves and everyone of them are doing it based on their own country and not on what others are doing.

Ok I question a lot of things they are throwing out but come on do people seriously think they are not trying to do whats best for the country

I never said any of those- i want to see a cost benefit analysis of lockdowns- i think given the scale of what's been asked of select businesses and sectors that is the least they deserve to see.
If they "are doing what is best for the country" then this should be no problem to provide and NPHET/Government and kindly provide me the calculations and evidence. In detail.

facehugger99

SAMTALK wrote: »

So what would you have done

Oh, I don't know, maybe spent the last 10 months and €10's of billions of euros ramping up hospital capacity and telling the easily identifiable vulnerable groups to take extra precautions.

I wouldn't have burnt the economy to the ground, destroyed thousands of viable businesses and put hundreds of thousands out of work over a virus that's harmless to the vast, vast majority.

I've said it before, but if Covid happened 20 years ago, the response would be entirely different. The reaction to it has been mainly driven by hysteria fueled by social-media. The politicians', being the cowardly vote-chasers they are, have pissed billions of our euros away placating the mob.

Ginger n Lemon

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Set traps I imagine

Brilliant :):)

Fintan you are on fire this morning

Lockdown is the equivalent of a patient coming in with broken finger, only to get their arm cut off as solution.

Captain_Crash

SAMTALK wrote: »

Ok I question a lot of things they are throwing out but come on do people seriously think they are not trying to do whats best for the country

My honest view, no! If politics has thought me one thing in this country its that most people involved have a "whats in it for me" mindset. You'll find the odd good one here and there but most are charlatans.

MM: Wanted to be T-Shock at all costs,
Leo: Wanted to step away while the going was good knowing what was coming
SD: Has a ministerial position that often leads to the big gig further down the line
SF: Have a "never interrupt your enemy when they're making mistakes" mantra
Greens: In government, need we say any more

And all of them know a sudden shift in policy could be fatal to some political careers. We have a perfect political storm here and its resulted in you and I bearing the brunt of it.

SAMTALK

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

I never said any of those- i want to see a cost benefit analysis of lockdowns- i think given the scale of what's been asked of select businesses and sectors that is the least they deserve to see.
If they "are doing what is best for the country" then this should be no problem to provide and NPHET/Government and kindly provide me the calculations and evidence. In detail.

I didn't mean to infer you did. Im saying a lot of posts have these theorys

Yes, its shocking to see what's happening to jobs business etc, and again I dont agree with a lot of things they are doing but people calling for their heads on a plate and the hate towards Tony Holohan is unbelievable. Tony Holohan is doing the job he is paid to do whether we agree with him or not.

Do you think if they published figures people would stop all this and say ok fair play continue as you were

Ginger n Lemon

Man due in court over robbery of shop in Dublin city yesterday
The theft occurred on Moore Street yesterday morning.

https://www.thejournal.ie/moore-street-robbery-dublin-5279306-Nov2020/

Only gonna get more desperate from here on. Lockdown effects, crime goes up, cancer deaths go up, unemployment goes up, but apparently we are saving lives. :rolleyes:

BeefeaterHat

SAMTALK wrote: »

Maybe it wasnt the case because of the restrictions ?

Nowhere has had a death toll of 3-4% or hospitalization of 20% whether they went into balls to the wall lockdown or not.

SAMTALK

facehugger99 wrote: »

Oh, I don't know, maybe spent the last 10 months and €10's of billions of euros ramping up hospital capacity and telling the easily identifiable vulnerable groups to take extra precautions.

I wouldn't have burnt the economy to the ground, destroyed thousands of viable businesses and put hundreds of thousands out of work over a virus that's harmless to the vast, vast majority.

I've said it before, but if Covid happened 20 years ago, the response would be entirely different. The reaction to it has been mainly driven by hysteria fueled by social-media. The politicians', being the cowardly vote-chasers they are, have pissed billions of our euros away placating the mob.

But come on werent we all terrified back in March because we didnt know what was heading our way

If they didnt ramp up hospital capacity there would have been a different outcry. they were damned if they did and damned if they didnt

Ginger n Lemon

SAMTALK wrote: »

But come on werent we all terrified back in March because we didnt know what was heading our way

If they didnt ramp up hospital capacity there would have been a different outcry. they were damned if they did and damned if they didnt

Such as?

BeefeaterHat

SAMTALK wrote: »

I didn't mean to infer you did. Im saying a lot of posts have these theorys

Yes, its shocking to see what's happening to jobs business etc, and again I dont agree with a lot of things they are doing but people calling for their heads on a plate and the hate towards Tony Holohan is unbelievable. Tony Holohan is doing the job he is paid to do whether we agree with him or not.

Do you think if they published figures people would stop all this and say ok fair play continue as you were

Tony Holohan is doing what he does best, cover his own arse and get compensated very generously by the state for doing so.

SAMTALK

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Such as?

Such as , Why are we not preparing our hospitals for this virus that none of us knew anything about