Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

peter kern

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

The restrictions worked because people thought covid killed 3-4% of people who caught it and hospitalized a fifth. Now we know that's not the case so why are we still taking the sledgehammer approach? Also considering the cost of restrictions in terms of jobs and national debt they'd want to bloody work to be blunt.

as for your first point
well in italy and some other nations in europe they are back at those 3-4 percent now.
and their Icu beds occupation at the same level as they were in march https://www.statista.com/statistics/1119163/covid-19-patients-in-icu-since-the-outbreak-italy/

it does show that not being very quick in decision making you have risks.
i agree we can debate about your 2nd point but the first point is the virus is still as much or as little dangerous than it was in the first wave
a couple of days ago italy recorded the 2nd highest mortality number in a day since the pandemic outbreak and they had brought down their numbers even lower than ireland in the summer.

BeefeaterHat

SAMTALK wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Can you actually make an argument rather than use emojis like a 12 year old please?

facehugger99

SAMTALK wrote: »

Can you point out where I projected my hysteria onto others ?

Sure, no problem - surprised you can't remember.

SAMTALK wrote: »

But come on werent we all terrified back in March

FintanMcluskey

SAMTALK wrote: »

Absoutely, I was talking about back at the start when no one what's was going to happen

Some questioned from the very beginning.

They were immediately silenced, like the doctor Harris appointed to the medical council and forced to resign.

Also the mechanics of Lombardy were vastly incomparable to any region in Ireland.
10m citizens in an area the size of Munster, also one of the oldest populations in the world.

A highly transmissible virus that effects the elderly will put pressure on hospitals in a region like that.

Although the hospitals in that region come under pressure every flu season

Fodla

peter kern wrote: »

as for your first point
well in italy and some other nations in europe they are back at those 3-4 percent now.
and their Icu beds occupation at the same level as they were in march https://www.statista.com/statistics/1119163/covid-19-patients-in-icu-since-the-outbreak-italy/

it does show that not being very quick in decision making you have risks.
i agree we can debate about your 2nd point but the first point is the virus is still as much or as little dangerous than it was in the first wave
a couple of days ago italy recorded the 2nd highest mortality number in a day since the pandemic outbreak and they had brought down their numbers even lower than ireland in the summer.

But the problem with these death numbers is the classifying of deaths that are clearly not COVID deaths as COVID deaths. A man fell from a ladder in Croatia recently and COVID was put down as the cause of death. It's impossible to know how many people have died from COVID-19. And that's without getting it 'died of' vs 'died with'.

fin12

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Holohan has achieved nothing any other pen pushing autocrat wouldn’t have (ie not very much). (Some) People speak in reverence like he banished Covid or something. He contributed to the worst economic damage in Europe and fairly middling Covid stats that are comparable to anywhere else.

Yes and another woman from the cervical cancer scandal died a few days ago. How he is still in a job is beyond me. Such an insult to all the families and victims. No justice.

SAMTALK

facehugger99 wrote: »

Sure, no problem - surprised you can't remember.

How is that projecting fear into others ?

You want to me to say well done for seeing what was coming ?

So when this started back in March we werent to listen to NPHET or the government or WHO ?

BeefeaterHat

peter kern wrote: »

as for your first point
well in italy and some other nations in europe they are back at those 3-4 percent now.
and their Icu beds occupation at the same level as they were in march https://www.statista.com/statistics/1119163/covid-19-patients-in-icu-since-the-outbreak-italy/

it does show that not being very quick in decision making you have risks.
i agree we can debate about your 2nd point but the first point is the virus is still as much or as little dangerous than it was in the first wave
a couple of days ago italy recorded the 2nd highest mortality number in a day since the pandemic outbreak and they had brought down their numbers even lower than ireland in the summer.

Covid doesn't kill that many people. The WHO reckon 700 million people had covid a couple of months ago. Does that mean theres 20 million people dead no one knows about? Confirmed cases doesn't equal all cases. So many cases have light to no symptoms you'll never catch them all unless you tested everyone constantly

SAMTALK

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

Can you actually make an argument rather than use emojis like a 12 year old please?

Ok sorry for offending you

I think maybe he did a little more than that. Better ?

Fodla

SAMTALK wrote: »

Ok sorry for offending you

I think maybe he did a little more than that. Better ?

Can you be more specific? I can't think of a single positive thing Anthony has done. But it'd take me a year to describe the damage he's done.

facehugger99

SAMTALK wrote: »

How is that projecting fear into others ?

You want to me to say well done for seeing what was coming ?

So when this started back in March we werent to listen to NPHET or the government or WHO ?

Listen to the WHO?

Good idea

Governments should not impose national lockdowns if the number of COVID-19 cases continues to rise.

That's according to Dr David Nabarro, the World Health Organization's special envoy on COVID-19 and professor of Global Health at Imperial College London

Allinall

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Why do you link an article talking about March - June 2020? We are in November. Now unless you assume that lockdown in March is the same as lockdown in November, except for
- no mortgage breaks
- permanent unemployment has increased
- Part time staff are no longer on 350 euros PUP but rather on 200 euros
- in general, 20% + of population has endured multiple months of reduced income

Combination of above = increase in crime. But then you were suggesting to me in other thread that Irish corporation tax receipts in August were from 2020 period.... :rolleyes: funny enough when CT receipts for 2020 started to come in October onward they were nearly 1bn less than for same period 2019.

Where's the evidence that crime has increased?

Irish corporation tax receipts in August were mainly from 2020 period.

Johnboy1951

SAMTALK wrote: »

Look I'm as tired and fed up as anyone and want things to go back to normal as soon as possible, but people saying government and NPHET are wrong and trying to close down pubs, get people to tow the line, it's all a hoax etc is wearing

Every country is doing what needs to be done for themselves and everyone of them are doing it based on their own country and not on what others are doing.

Ok I question a lot of things they are throwing out but come on do people seriously think they are not trying to do whats best for the country

Their actions over the past number of months have most definitely caused me to question the government's motives.

SAMTALK

facehugger99 wrote: »

Listen to the WHO?

Good idea

So us people here on boards are better qualified ?

SAMTALK

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Their actions over the past number of months have most definitely caused me to question the government's motives.

I'm not being funny here, but what do you think they're motives are

polesheep

SAMTALK wrote: »

But it's not like it was in March. Have a look around

And again I will say this was new and yes back in March we didnt have to wear masks

Again I'll say I dont agree with a lot of what's happening but come on we cannot knock them for things done at the beginning because we knew very little about this virus

That's not really true. Back in early March an immunologist told me, "This virus will spread through the population like a flu. It will mostly affect the old and the vulnerable and all we can do is slow it down until we get some form of herd immunity, ideally through a vaccine." That was actually quite a bit to know about Covid and we don't really know much more today.

AssetBacked2

Fodla wrote: »

Absolutely. I have been saying for months now that this is a social media pandemic. No social media, or any media, and people wouldn't have noticed there was a pandemic going on.

It's backed by data. Covid is part of a list of other potential issues those with underlying illnesses have but is certainly not something the vast, vast majority would even know they had unless they were told.

There are people on Facebook that buy into 5G and anti-vaccine conspiracy theories, but there are people on twitter that (in my informed observation as I have experience with but no longer use Twitter nor Facebook) also operate in bubbles and end up being unable to see the wood from the trees on a lot of issues.

Covid is the perfect example of where journalists, medics and general social media addicts have been licking the holes off each other on covid to the point where they think that healthy scepticism about the seriousiousness of covid or pointing out hypocrisies in the restrictions amounts to you being part of the Facebook conspiracy nuts. For them, if you are not with them you are against them. It is tragic as these people can be apparent influential voices in the public domain (i.e. politicians, journalists) and yet lack the ability to deal with any challenge to their world views.

Smoothrider

I was told a similar thing by a consultant back in March, sars 2 simply accelerates the deaths of those who would otherwise be dying in a few weeks / months time. It is not the proximate cause of death in almost all cases. This is actually quite demonstrable because we are not seeing any excess death, and there's been none at all since March / April. There has been in fact a deficit in deaths since April, month on month, which continues up to the present. It will probably quite likely that for the year as a whole there will be no excess deaths at all which is something that is literally impossible for a 'killer virus'.

Johnboy1951

Fodla wrote: »

But the problem with these death numbers is the classifying of deaths that are clearly not COVID deaths as COVID deaths. A man fell from a ladder in Croatia recently and COVID was put down as the cause of death. It's impossible to know how many people have died from COVID-19. And that's without getting it 'died of' vs 'died with'.

As has been long pointed out the best means of gauging the effects of Covid is to look at all-cause mortality and compare it to previous years.
Doing this makes it VERY clear what the number of deaths is that COULD be attributed to Covid ...... within a small percentage variation.
OK, because 'flu' deaths will be reduced in the Winter, the Covid deaths will rise, but this cannot be determined.
The main point being the effects outside the normal is due to Covid ....... and anyone who has studied those figures have determined minimal extra deaths in the period.

During April and into May, a lockdown was a reasonable response.
The country should have been fully open during the Summer .... Covid is not active during the Summer.
Coming into Winter strong advise to the public about hygiene and social distance measures and mask wearing if they have symptoms should have been sufficient.

All of this information was available in their own figures of hospitalisations, deaths etc.etc.

All they had to do was to read it ...... understand it ...... and act accordingly.
They failed on one of those three - I still wonder which - and have destroyed the economy due to their actions.

So, yes, when we knew little of this virus, a serious reaction was warranted (April).
The gov. actions since then have been catestrophic for the country and near criminal.

For the record here ....... yes in April I was very concerned and locked myself up and followed the strictist restriction measues.

By June I had sufficient information to know that this virus is seasonal, and its 'deadly' effects much promoted here and elsewhere, was nonsense.
If I could have this info, there is no excuse for our government not to have it much earlier.

Covid has caused very little damage over and above what is normally experienced.

Our governments actions have destroyed the economy and caused an unknown amount of fear, hysteria, social isolation and all its consequences.

As for NPHET ......
Who appointed them?
Who chose to accept their advise to the exclusion of all other advise?
Who implemented their advise?

facehugger99

SAMTALK wrote: »

So us people here on boards are better qualified ?

Given the old adage about arguing - I think it's time to finish this discussion.


You've suggested that we were all terrified in March - we weren't.

You suggested that we follow WHO advice - we didn't.

You think Tony's doing a great job - come back to us in a couple of years when you're paying the bill for this nonsense.

Fodla

SAMTALK wrote: »

I'm not being funny here, but what do you think they're motives are

Control and deliberately destroying the economy and society so that they can be "built back better" as part of the upcoming Great Reset. Not a conspiracy theory. It can be read about on the World Economic Forum website. Many leaders around the word are saying "build back better". That can't be a coincidence.

Johnboy1951

SAMTALK wrote: »

I'm not being funny here, but what do you think they're motives are

My biggest problem in all of this is that I cannot fathom what it might be.
That alone is cause of concern.

I guess it might well be down to complete and utter ignorance and stupidity?
...... or something else .....

Fodla

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

My biggest problem in all of this is that I cannot fathem what it might be.
That alone is cause of concern.

I guess it might well be down to complete and utter ignorance and stupidity?
...... or something else .....

See my post above for what I believe to be the only plausible explanation.

BeefeaterHat

SAMTALK wrote: »

So us people here on boards are better qualified ?

Going by your logic, someone can never criticize a film or a footballer or a song etc because you can just play the ' I'd like to see you do better' argument

SAMTALK

SAMTALK wrote: »

I'm not being funny here, but what do you think they're motives are

For FF and FG, I definitely think they are trying to go for the “we saved thousands of lives” and put people before the economy. And also just following other countries to an extent.

NPHET I believe have more sinister agendas. They’d love to get pubs closed permanently.

I think it’s a bit naive to suggest neither have agendas outside the pandemic.

SAMTALK

facehugger99 wrote: »

Given the old adage about arguing - I think it's time to finish this discussion.


You've suggested that we were all terrified in March - we weren't.

You suggested that we follow WHO advice - we didn't.

You think Tony's doing a great job - come back to us in a couple of years when you're paying the bill for this nonsense.

I took that back in a further post to say there was a great level of concern so why not quote that .

No where did I saw Tony Holohan was doing a great job

SAMTALK

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

Going by your logic, someone can never criticize a film or a footballer or a song etc because you can just play the ' I'd like to see you do better' argument

If you read back on my posts, I have said they did not get everything right

It seems to be you either have to be 100% with them or 100% against them

I just think there is a middle ground

SAMTALK

Deleted User wrote: »

For FF and FG, I definitely think they are trying to go for the “we saved thousands of lives” and put people before the economy. And also just following other countries to an extent.

NPHET I believe have more sinister agendas. They’d love to get pubs closed permanently.

I think it’s a bit naive to suggest neither have agendas outside the pandemic.

It was a genuine question. I have my doubts that the government are willing to see the country on its knees so they can save thousands of lives.

Why would NPHET want pubs closed permanently

Fodla

SAMTALK wrote: »

It was a genuine question. I have my doubts that the government are willing to see the country on its knees so they can save thousands of lives.

Why would NPHET want pubs closed permanently

Because Anthony hates alcohol and destroying society and the economy is necessary in order to be able to 'build back better'.

Smoothrider

There is no 'outside the pandemic' at present.

The HSE are being shielded from the pandemic by Nphet, who in fact are the HSE. It is one small sector of society looking after itself and to hell with everyone else. Nphet do not give a tupenny curse about you granny and never did. They've been bolting the stable door long after horses have flown. Remember, they released all of those vulnerable patients in acute care hospital beds back into nursing homes in March / April. They refused to apply visiting restrictions to nursing homes in March and said masks were counter productive. This is not ten years ago, this March 2020. They continued to hype the 'case' numbes during the summer even though it was entirely inactive at that time because it's seasonal. And, they're now lining everyone up for lockdown 2021, probably right up to the end of April. How anyone in their right mind can have any faith in Nphet & their mickey mouse PCR 'case' numbers is beyond me.