Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Rrrrrr2

brokekeyboard wrote: »

Religion??? There is only one fanatical side here engaging in faith.

Yes. The pro lockdowners. With their blind cult like faith in lockdowns. And more lockdowns because we’ve not been believing hard enough in them

SusieBlue

brokekeyboard wrote: »

We know that house parties and schools have been a problem. We also know from tracing that infections have been acquired at restaurants.

We also had at one stage a low prevalence of the virus but complacency allowed it to catch up and/or newly imported cases

No, the problem has been the fact that the virus is completely out of control in nursing homes and in hospitals, and it’s been pretty much consistently like this since March.
Of the 274 patients covid confirmed patients in Irish hospitals last week, 211 caught the virus in the hospital after they were admitted. That is an absolutely disgraceful, shameful number.
As well as that, huge numbers of staff have contracted it in hospitals too (which counts as a ‘workplace cluster’ according to NPHET, thus conveniently alleviating them of any responsibility).

The government have had 9 months to get these situations under control but instead they have their fingers in their ears while Tony H tries to get yet another piece of emergency legalisation rushed through to legally prevent people from drinking flat pints on wet November evenings.
Meanwhile, the elderly, the people all these lockdowns are supposed to be ‘protecting’, are still getting infected in huge numbers and dying every single day in our nursing homes and hospitals while both the government and NPHET completely neglect them.

Absolutely NONE of that is the fault of the public.
This is completely on the government/nphet, this isn’t a new emergency situation, they’ve have 9 months to come up with better plans and protocols and they have utterly failed.
And until they accept and admit their gross negligence, which has cost many lives already, I have no interest in listening to pearl clutching comments complaining about house parties.
House parties are not generally frequented by 80+ year old elderly people with severe underlying health conditions. They aren’t the problem here, and all talking about them does is distracts from the real issues that are actually causing more cases and more deaths.

Rrrrrr2

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

This thread has taken some bonkers turn tonight. This lockdown really is effecting people's mental health.

Well does that not tell you something? If that’s what you believe then you’ll accept how damaging they are. People’s mental health btw is extremely important- It’s not currency for dismissal or ridicule

growleaves

brokekeyboard wrote: »

Slavery, eugenics, religion and the great reset.

Ok

Lol

My point is just that what's right might be popular, unpopular, official policy or fringe.

I don't like the idea of an iron consensus which attempts to shut out other opinions or pretend they don't exist.

I use the past as a comparison since I know we didn't have these extreme measures for similar outbreaks 40 or 50 years ago.

fin12

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

This thread has taken some bonkers turn tonight. This lockdown really is effecting people's mental health.

No sh*t Sherlock.

lawrencesummers

Tormey said we should disband NPHET and many others have called for it.


Personally I dont agree.

They should just be rebranded as the ‘National Irish Covid Communication Emergency Response State’

Or NICCERS for short, because it’s clear that they are not responding to public health and they are only working on one illness.

drunkmonkey

CruelSummer

If the Government cave on restaurants reopening, I’m going to organise numerous house ‘get togethers’ with takeaway. It would be more controlled in the restaurant / pub environment but I’ll be doing it either way.
Anecdotally - no one is following the 5km, house visit ban or many more of the level 5 restrictions. Yet people who actually generate employment in Ireland, small businesses continue to be closed indefinitely.
Does anyone remember being on this thread in April/May where it was discussed how Dr Holohan would cancel Christmas if he got the chance? And here we are months later.
People need to seriously wake up and start asking questions about what exactly we’re agreeing to tolerate and do in the name of ‘public health’.

SusieBlue

brokekeyboard wrote: »

I think this line of thinking is just trying to discredit everything because of one common mistake. No one is perfect. Mistakes were made and are to be learned from.

There are plenty of vulnerable people who do not live in nursing homes and that is why we can't just go **** it.

Most of the cases and most of the deaths are directly linked to the mismanagement of nursing homes and hospitals by our government and NPHET.
These ‘mistakes’ have cost a lot of lives, I thought we were all about saving lives? We’ve had 9 months to learn, it isn’t happening, instead they’re just bestowing more restrictions and lockdowns on the public who aren’t at fault for this mismanagement.

I would suggest that the vulnerable people who don’t live in nursing homes take responsibility for their own health and protect themselves as best they can with whatever level of risk they are comfortable with.
We didn’t lockdown 5 million people to protect them before this and it isn’t sustainable to do it going forward either.

Any comment on the 211 people who caught covid while hospitalised for other health issues last week?
Do you not think it’s a bit shady that they didn’t disclose that?

Fodla

Penfailed wrote: »

Many believe it's a load of nonsense.

Yes, they dismiss them all saying 'new normal' as a coincidence. the increasingly widespread use of 'build back better' as a coincidence, the head of a major global organisation calling for every aspect of our societies to be revamped, for a new economic model, and describing the idea of going back to normal as a "fiction" as nothing to worry about.

Cork2021

7th December gastropubs and restaurants to open

normanoffside

What is this madness? Even the newsreader can't keep a straight face.


https://twitter.com/powercut79/status/1332072576395436033

funnydoggy

George Lee looking like a manager at Dunnes tonight.

lawrencesummers

CruelSummer wrote: »

If the Government cave on restaurants reopening, I’m going to organise numerous house ‘get togethers’ with takeaway. It would be more controlled in the restaurant / pub environment but I’ll be doing it either way.
Anecdotally - no one is following the 5km, house visit ban or many more of the level 5 restrictions. Yet people who actually generate employment in Ireland, small businesses continue to be closed indefinitely.
Does anyone remember being on this thread in April/May where it was discussed how Dr Holohan would cancel Christmas if he got the chance? And here we are months later.
People need to seriously wake up and start asking questions about what exactly we’re agreeing to tolerate and do in the name of ‘public health’.

If the HSE and NPHET were collecting and releasing accurate data on infections it would put strength to their arguments.

If they could say that ‘ X’amount of infections occurred in wet pubs during the last opening and that’s why they should stay closed then it might wash.

If they could say accurately how much school infection there is then people might operate differently.

The problem is that “community transmission” which translates to “we haven’t been able or willing to trace it” is no longer talked about and now “household acquired infection” is the new buzz term.

If majority of people are getting infected at home then they need to go ffurthet and start to trace to actual root of the infection, because it doesn’t get into a house through the answering machine.

The data and tracing the HSE are doing is still wholly inadequate.

We are not dealing in facts, because they are not dealing in facts because they don’t collect and analyse enough data.

acequion

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Bill Tormey is on primetime shortly.

He looks rared up and ready to go.


If you ever meet a more ignorant man in your life let me know.

What is your issue with Bill Tormey? Unless you're a lockdown fanatic and I don't get that impression from your posts.

I like and respect Dr Tormey but he wasn't that articulate tonight because the man was clearly extremely frustrated and I don't blame him.

As for Anthony Staines and his zero Covid and we'll be in and out of lockdown til next Christmas rubbish, he's a complete nutter and should not be given so much air time!

domrush

Cork2021 wrote: »

7th December gastropubs and restaurants to open

Source?

Stormyteacup

Cork2021 wrote: »

7th December gastropubs and restaurants to open

Yes apparently just confirmed on tonight show. Looks like has been provisionally decided to open them. Expect stepping up of direct appeals to public from NPHET to put pressure on government to cave.

lawrencesummers

acequion wrote: »

What is your issue with Bill Tormey? Unless you're a lockdown fanatic and I don't get that impression from your posts.

I like and respect Dr Tormey but he wasn't that articulate tonight because the man was clearly extremely frustrated and I don't blame him.

As for Anthony Staines and his zero Covid and we'll be in and out of lockdown til next Christmas rubbish, he's a complete nutter and should not be given so much air time!

My opinion on him was formed and reinforced long before Covid.

SusieBlue

brokekeyboard wrote: »

If we don't clean up our act we will be in and out until the vaccine is available and distributed.

We get to choose with our behaviour.

We will be in and out of lockdown regardless of what happens. We had less than 5 cases and no deaths per day during the summer and the government still wouldn’t lift lockdown. Even though we had excellent behaviour and made a fantastic achievement to get numbers so low, they still wouldn’t budge.
I don’t have any faith they’d do any differently in the future.
The only reason any restrictions are being lifted at all this time around is because they know it would be political suicide to cancel Christmas - once again they’re more interested in saving their own necks than anything else.

Their only solution to any issue surrounding covid is lockdown, lockdown, and more lockdown.

acequion

brokekeyboard wrote: »

If we don't clean up our act we will be in and out until the vaccine is available and distributed.

We get to choose with our behaviour.

Go and clean up your own act!! I really find it hard to stomach such patronising, insulting remarks about normal and natural human behaviour.

Also, why did you choose my post to issue your dictate to? My post is asking a specific question to another poster, nothing to do with you!

CruelSummer

brokekeyboard wrote: »

Why are we here?

We’re here because we didn’t look for data, accountability, and crucially silenced opposing views. Nursing homes and hospitals are where the issues are, you know, the most vulnerable our overlords profess to be most concerned for.
Funny, they seem more concerned with closing down businesses, creating difficulties for healthy people to exercise, socialise, attend work and live.

Oh and the ‘open everything now’ crew aren’t a fringe view. And that’s thanks to RTE, NPHET and our media beating the public with a stick all summer re Covid. Even the most diligent supporter of the restrictions have thrown in the towel and want to live.

speckle

normanoffside wrote: »

What is this madness? Even the newsreader can't keep a straight face.


https://twitter.com/powercut79/status/1332072576395436033

Perhaps an escalator or chair stair lift might be easier for him. rofl took me ages to type this reply as I was laughing so much. Best giggle all week. thanks

acequion

lawrencesummers wrote: »

My opinion on him was formed and reinforced long before Covid.

I'm even more curious! Is it the man you dislike or his stance on Covid?

normanoffside

SusieBlue wrote: »

We will be in and out of lockdown regardless of what happens. We had less than 5 cases and no deaths per day during the summer and the government still wouldn’t lift lockdown. Even though we had excellent behaviour and made a fantastic achievement to get numbers so low, they still wouldn’t budge.
I don’t have any faith they’d do any differently in the future.
The only reason any restrictions are being lifted at all this time around is because they know it would be political suicide to cancel Christmas - once again they’re more interested in saving their own necks than anything else.

Their only solution to any issue surrounding covid is lockdown, lockdown, and more lockdown.

5 cases a day and they still wouldn't open the pubs, restaurants or allow sports. and yet we were never going for a zero covid policy.
'Not where we need to be' according to Tony even though we were never trying for 0 and yet 5 was too much.

Anyone still listening to these frauds is a lunatic.

CalamariFritti

normanoffside wrote: »

I don't think they should be denied visits. But things like antigen tests could be used to mitigate risks and allow more safe visits, as could weekly testing of staff.
These are measures that NPHET don't recommend we use to help keep the residents safe.

Meanwhile perfectly healthy and low risk people are denied what are considered normal civil liberties.
The whole response is illogical.

I'm with you on that as you probably know.

normanoffside

brokekeyboard wrote: »

With hindsight they were right, harsh as it is.

Running wets pubs with any normalcy is diametrically opposed to how we contain a contagious virus.

What are you talking about?

Almost every country in Europe had a more or less normal summer. As cases dropped, their countries reopened.
We had practically no normal life despite the lowest cases in Europe and yet again despite having the lowest cases we have no end to it.

At least others had a few months of normality, we have had no normality since March.

SusieBlue

SusieBlue wrote: »

We will be in and out of lockdown regardless of what happens. We had less than 5 cases and no deaths per day during the summer and the government still wouldn’t lift lockdown. Even though we had excellent behaviour and made a fantastic achievement to get numbers so low, they still wouldn’t budge.
I don’t have any faith they’d do any differently in the future.
The only reason any restrictions are being lifted at all this time around is because they know it would be political suicide to cancel Christmas - once again they’re more interested in saving their own necks than anything else.

Their only solution to any issue surrounding covid is lockdown, lockdown, and more lockdown.

100% plus the summer is conducive to all conditions favourable to low cases..we are all outdoors...we are heathier with sunshine and vitamin D on tap, its too hot to sit inside so we are in our gardens especially visiting family...and drum roll.......schools are closed....and still everythings closed.

CalamariFritti

Deleted User wrote: »

The studies putting it this low have been thoroughly debunked. Reviews of the Ionnidas study have suggested those studies included in his meta analysis that actually have any scientific basis puts it at at least 0.5%. The convergence in western settings with larger populations in excess of 65 is towards 0.65%.

Given the level of cases in Belgium is only starting to slow with massive restrictions and that they are already at 0.13% of the population having died, the 0.25% rate is definitely an underestimate. It would require over 50 % of the population to have been infected and consequently the spread of the virus would slow all by itself

I am sorry but this is total nonsense. They cannot possibly have been thoroughly or not thoroughly debunked because no one has any clue how many people in western countries have actually been infected or not. Data compiled from regions where it has gone through comes in at those 'low' numbers. So do the few representative studies that have been carried out.

Ioannidis is a meta study. As in it aggregates over 70 local studies. He also came to the conclusion that local fluctuations occur mainly due to demographics. The corrected median comes in that 'low'.

acequion

brokekeyboard wrote: »

I already have thank you very much. It is the behaviour of the herd that counts for everything, I can only do my own part.

Nothing personal at all???

Can you appreciate how frustrating I find it being restricted even more because of the actions of others? We are facing the same problem.

As long as you try to control the actions of others you're going to find yourself very frustrated.

And personally I have not one jot of sympathy for your frustration. I have a horror of people on the high moral ground dictating to and attempting to control,with zero regard for the autonomy of others.

I personally take my own responsibility to take my own precautions and I mind my own business when it comes to others. It's an approach I'd recommend!

brokekeyboard

brokekeyboard wrote: »

You told me you are mathematically inclined. They have paid a price for that normality as clearly shown by the numbers, have they not?

Maybe you think it was worth it which is a different argument about the price of life essentially and fair enough if sports and socialising have a higher value to you.

I understand the point you're trying to make. But also understand that the average age of people dying from Covid is the average of people dying anyway.

It's also clear that any deaths where Covid was tested present are marked as Covid deaths, regardless of whether Covid was the primary cause of death or not.

All deaths are tragic, but keep the numbers in perspective.