England v Ireland Autumn Nations Cup | 21.11.20 KO 15:00 | RTE 1 Read Post #5

shootermacg

We lost the kicking game today. Keenan was immense in the air, but his decision making with ball in hand could definitely use some work. Lowe didn't do much wrong...or right. Earls was good.

I don't think we've found our starting back 3 yet. I hope AF tries the rest of the competition to try out the other options. Some guys are great trainers, others are great players and some are both.

I've keep Keenan, he's showing a lot of promise, but I'd also give Daly a run at 15. Put Stockdale back on the wing and the other place is Conway / Earls.

Thought Farrell did well and got us go forward ball, which was hard to do considering how far behind the line he was getting the ball.

Murrays passing seems to have really improved. Multiple times he was putting the ball in front of the runner and that was my main gripe with how he was playing. I'm glad even at this age he's willing to change his style.

It's also funny how SA and England are winning games based on a style that Joe Schmitt practically invented and won everything with in 2018.

WoollyRedHat

thomas 123 wrote: »

Zebo. He’s miles better. 😀

How many miles better?ðŸ˜

WoollyRedHat

shootermacg wrote: »

We lost the kicking game today. Keenan was immense in the air, but his decision making with ball in hand could definitely use some work. Lowe didn't do much wrong...or right. Earls was good.

I don't think we've found our starting back 3 yet. I hope AF tries the rest of the competition to try out the other options. Some guys are great trainers, others are great players and some are both.

I've keep Keenan, he's showing a lot of promise, but I'd also give Daly a run at 15. Put Stockdale back on the wing and the other place is Conway / Earls.

Thought Farrell did well and got us go forward ball, which was hard to do considering how far behind the line he was getting the ball.

Murrays passing seems to have really improved. Multiple times he was putting the ball in front of the runner and that was my main gripe with how he was playing. I'm glad even at this age he's willing to change his style.

It's also funny how SA and England are winning games based on a style that Joe Schmitt practically invented in 2018.

Lowe was underwhelming but only his second game in a green shirt to be fair to him.

applehunter

Get Farrell out.

On such a memorable day to have an Englishman managing our team is a spit on the face.

wittycynic

The big take away from this game is we don't seem to be going anywhere. Farrell is, what, seven games in, and we don't seem to be seeing any positive evolution in our game.

Keep it narrow, truck it through the phases.

There wasn't a hint that we had any idea how to break England down, or challenge England's approach. Again.

You can take losses like that when they are part of your journey towards implementing a brilliant overall game strategy. There is no meaningful evidence of that happening.

Is it wise to persist with a team of coaches who don't appear to have the vision to make us serious contenders against the best teams in the world?

WoollyRedHat

applehunter wrote: »

Get Farrell out.

On such a memorable day to have an Englishman managing our team is a spit on the face.

It's tomorrow for one thing?

shootermacg

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Lowe was underwhelming but only his second game in a green shirt to be fair to him.

I wasn't having a go at Lowe at all, just didn't see much of him. I think the back 3 is a work in progress and I'd like AF to try out all the options before settling on a combination for the next 6N.

Akrasia

applehunter wrote: »

Get Farrell out.

On such a memorable day to have an Englishman managing our team is a spit on the face.

You would probably be happier in life if you dropped the hatred and that massive chip o your shoulder

Should we have Sacked Schmidt because he wasn't Irish?

WoollyRedHat

shootermacg wrote: »

I wasn't having a go at Lowe at all, just didn't see much of him. I think the back 3 is a work in progress and I'd like AF to try out all the options before settling on a combination for the next 6N.

Well he was poor in chasing back for the lineout blunder try, POM was ahead of him to defend which isn't great.

shootermacg

wittycynic wrote: »

The big take away from this game is we don't seem to be going anywhere. Farrell is, what, seven games in, and we don't seem to be seeing any positive evolution in our game.

Keep it narrow, truck it through the phases.

There wasn't a hint that we had any idea how to break England down, or challenge England's approach. Again.

You can take losses like that when they are part of your journey towards implementing a brilliant overall game strategy. There is no meaningful evidence of that happening.

Is it wise to persist with a team of coaches who don't appear to have the vision to make us serious contenders against the best teams in the world?

There were plenty of signs had had given a totally different game-plan to the one that was implemented. But after about 15 minutes the players decided to go with tight pods of 3, so it's on the players who certainly didn't implement the territory game that he set out for them.

WoollyRedHat

Akrasia wrote: »

You would probably be happier in life if you dropped the hatred and that massive chip o your shoulder

Should we have Sacked Schmidt because he wasn't Irish?

I think he's more the anti-English persuasion than anti-NZ if I had to guess

lawrencesummers

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

You are right, England are currently the better team and their players are currently in better form. You will find very few arguments from anyone there.

But statements like "nobody would get into their 15 or 23", are completely redundant if these opinions constantly change with form.

Two years ago we were talking about Ireland in the same way that we are talking about England right now.

If the point you are trying to make is that England wouldn't want to change their winning formula right now and that their players are in better form, yeah no **** pal. But it seems like an utterly pointless discussion.

If it’s so pointless then no need to reply, but on current form, and the form of the last 12 - 24 months nobody from the Irish side is much better than their English counterpart.

That’s relevant because it shows how far behind them we are.

wittycynic

shootermacg wrote: »

There were plenty of signs had had given a totally different game-plan to the one that was implemented. But after about 15 minutes the players decided to go with tight pods of 3, so it's on the players who certainly didn't implement the territory game that he set out for them.

That's certainly possible (they kicked a bit early on) but it's a big assumption to say that the players decided to play differently to how they were instructed. And this didn't seem to be corrected at half time either, when it might have been.

lawrencesummers

shootermacg wrote: »

We lost the kicking game today. Keenan was immense in the air, but his decision making with ball in hand could definitely use some work. Lowe didn't do much wrong...or right. Earls was good.

I don't think we've found our starting back 3 yet. I hope AF tries the rest of the competition to try out the other options. Some guys are great trainers, others are great players and some are both.

I've keep Keenan, he's showing a lot of promise, but I'd also give Daly a run at 15. Put Stockdale back on the wing and the other place is Conway / Earls.

Thought Farrell did well and got us go forward ball, which was hard to do considering how far behind the line he was getting the ball.

Murrays passing seems to have really improved. Multiple times he was putting the ball in front of the runner and that was my main gripe with how he was playing. I'm glad even at this age he's willing to change his style.

It's also funny how SA and England are winning games based on a style that Joe Schmitt practically invented and won everything with in 2018.

Immense in the air.
Come off the stage.

Five Eighth

We've had it good for over a decade. Our golden generation have moved on.

Kearney, Horgan, O Driscoll, Darcy, Bowe, O Gara/Sexton, Stringer/Murray, Clohessey/Healy, Flannery, Hayes, O Connell, O Callaghan, Wallace, Heaslip, Leamy. We'll be a long time waiting to see the likes of O Driscoll and O Connell in an Irish jersey again.

We also had more strength in depth.

We must just get used to being an average side - the 'new normal' (sorry).

Ardillaun

rodge123 wrote: »

That’s brutal from ref not spotting Keenan been dragged in a headlock

The (DAZN) commentators said nothing about it either.

lawrencesummers

applehunter wrote: »

Get Farrell out.

On such a memorable day to have an Englishman managing our team is a spit on the face.

While your nationalistic pride is completely outraged dont forget our best available outhalf is English as well.

ElisaAtWar

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Lowe was underwhelming but only his second game in a green shirt to be fair to him.

Funny, but he was the one of the back 3 I thought cemented his place. There ya go. It's clear folks see different things

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/ghook/status/1330236924594954240?s=19

D.Q

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

It's crash test dummy tactics.

Mmm Mmm Mmm mmm

molloyjh

Bazzo wrote: »

I would say the lineout is the single biggest contributor to what lost the game. Convert any of the 3(?) early kicks to the corner and that's a very different game. Their second try which was their only 7 pointer also came from one of those lineouts.

Our scrum got minced in the first half, I don't think anybody would deny that.

I think it's fair to say molloy that those were probably both bigger issues than our midfield today. But yes agreed we should have seen more creativity in the midfield, don't think Byrne helped there at all to be honest, big improvement when Burns came on.

Your first paragraph suggests had we kicked rather than gone for the corner then the game would have been different. That means the decision making was the issue there, not the line out. And yes they scored off a line out, but 7 points with 60 mins left on the clock should not be the reason we lost a game where we dominated possession. There was LOADS of time left to turn things around at that point.

We won all of our scrums. I dont know the penalty count from scrums, but I'd be surprised if they were much different.

The line out contributed, but IMO wasn't the biggest factor. Our inability to do much of anything at all with the huge amounts of possession we had was why we lost that game. We conceded 12 of the 18 points in the first 20 mins. For the remainder of the game we dominated possession and only won that 60 mins 6-7. That to me screams that we simply couldn't do anything with the ball when we had it. Because we had ample time and possession on the ball to turn things around, regardless of the line out (did we lose many after that?).

mfceiling

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ghook/status/1330236924594954240?s=19

Is he still alive?

Christ.

Bazzo

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ghook/status/1330236924594954240?s=19

Did you actually see whose tweet you're quoting?

ElisaAtWar

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ghook/status/1330236924594954240?s=19

Ross Byrne is never going to do anything too interesting. So the english coach measured the game exactly and credit to him

Burkie1203

Bazzo wrote: »

Did you actually see whose tweet you're quoting?

He aint wrong tho

Bazzo

molloyjh wrote: »

Your first paragraph suggests had we kicked rather than gone for the corner then the game would have been different. That means the decision making was the issue there, not the line out. And yes they scored off a line out, but 7 points with 60 mins left on the clock should not be the reason we lost a game where we dominated possession. There was LOADS of time left to turn things around at that point.

We won all of our scrums. I dont know the penalty count from scrums, but I'd be surprised if they were much different.

The line out contributed, but IMO wasn't the biggest factor. Our inability to do much of anything at all with the huge amounts of possession we had was why we lost that game. We conceded 12 of the 18 points in the first 20 mins. For the remainder of the game we dominated possession and only won that 60 mins 6-7. That to me screams that we simply couldn't do anything with the ball when we had it. Because we had ample time and possession on the ball to turn things around, regardless of the line out (did we lose many after that?).

No, I'm not suggesting we had to kick for the posts rather than the corner, in fact I specifically said "convert" - as in score in any manner from those kicks to the corner rather than just weakly turn over possession.

I think I've pretty succinctly outlined why the lineout(or more accurately the set piece in general) was the biggest factor in the loss to be honest but if you don't agree that's obviously your perogative.

Just as an aside winning your own put in to a scrum doesn't mean you're not getting minced, being marched back and getting the ball out under pressure is still being bested.

And yes, off the top of my head the lineout continued very very badly throughout the match, though improved slightly as the match went on.

OldRio

Porter did the full 80mins and the scrum got better.
Fair play.

Solutionking

Didn't play well. I am a huge fan of R Byrne but I don't see international standard in him. He isn't helped with having to get every one of his starts in Twickers v a very very good England team. Everyone talks about Eddie Jones but the coaching team he has behind him is incredible and at least 1 if not two of the lads would walk in as a international manager on their own
In terms of today. Lineout was a disaster, POM was picked for lineout and it didn't work again and he offered zero around the pitch. Time to call it a day for him against the top team, maybe he can stay in squad and play as captain against the lesser teams but he isn't up to it.
Do we have a time machine for Earls? please
JGP done ok, Byrne had a nightmare. Really wanted Burns to come on earlier and he showed flashes like he did against Wales so hopefully he starts next day out.
I find it strange that people on here call for change, then when these players make a mistake they go nuts. The point of this competition is to bring in new players. Try out new ideas and that is what is happening. Hopefully will continue.
Keenan had a good game but he is not Stockdale who is a monster when you compare the two of them. I still see my backs as 11. Lowe, 14, Larmour, 15 Stockdale. Keenan etc as back up.
Doris done well, Stander maybe it was me but I didn't see much of him but I could be wrong. I don't remember much of him.
Farrell done well at 13 but we need Ringrose at 13, AKi was busy.

It was always going to be a hard day at the office. I do fear Catt is not the right man, but very very early to tell yet

Burkie1203

Solutionking wrote: »

POM was picked for lineout and it didn't work again and he offered zero around the pitch.

Byrne had a nightmare.

POM was fine. Gave away a thick penalty (wasn't the only one), had a couple of decent carries etc. The problem is so many others were crap so this gets elevated to something it's not. Doris was excellent in the 2nd half. Stander was awful.

Our 2nd row was poor.

JGP mixed the good and bad.



Byrne just doesn't bring enough at this level. Jackson exiled and Carbery injured is a killer.

lawrencesummers

Burkie1203 wrote: »

POM was fine. Gave away a thick penalty (wasn't the only one), had a couple of decent carries etc. The problem is so many others were crap so this gets elevated to something it's not. Doris was excellent in the 2nd half. Stander was awful.

Our 2nd row was poor.

JGP mixed the good and bad.



Byrne just doesn't bring enough at this level. Jackson exiled and Carbery injured is a killer.

What was the result of the penalty he gave away?
Did it gift England 3 points or save 5/7?

I wouldn’t say that was a stupid penalty.
It was a necessary one unfortunately.

Ardillaun

England's suffocating defensive style flatters well beaten teams on the scoreboard. They didn't need to do anything more than keep tackling and winning the rucks today, a feat only made possible by incredible fitness. Poor old Stander didn't get a look in, just sidelined. Positives for us were a scrum that rallied when it looked like it was going to collapse completely, POM's contribution which I did not expect (regarding that run back, didn't he play on the wing in his youth?), and a lovely try by Stockdale. As has been noted, more chips and grubbers were called for (from as many players as possible, not just the out half) and what about trying to break through undermanned rucks?

kingofthekong

lawrencesummers wrote: »

What was the result of the penalty he gave away?
Did it gift England 3 points or save 5/7?

I wouldn’t say that was a stupid penalty.
It was a necessary one unfortunately.

The maul was on our 22 so i think it was unlikely that a try was at risk

England kicked closer to Irelands line from the pen not sure how long after England got the crossfield kick for the try

lawrencesummers

kingofthekong wrote: »

The maul was on our 22 so i think it was unlikely that a try was at risk

England kicked closer to Irelands line from the pen not sure how long after England got the crossfield kick for the try

They had beaten our defence to the maul, impossible to say it saved a try, but it looked necessary at the time

thomas 123

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

How many miles better?ðŸ˜

100 country miles

Solutionking

Burkie1203 wrote: »

POM was fine. Gave away a thick penalty (wasn't the only one), had a couple of decent carries etc. The problem is so many others were crap so this gets elevated to something it's not. Doris was excellent in the 2nd half. Stander was awful.

Our 2nd row was poor.

JGP mixed the good and bad.



Byrne just doesn't bring enough at this level. Jackson exiled and Carbery injured is a killer.

Carbery has to be discounted. Burns, Healy and H Byrne has to be options. Other players let them move on. No point bringing back in Madigan at this stage

KaneToad

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Well he was poor in chasing back for the lineout blunder try, POM was ahead of him to defend which isn't great.

I think they may have run different lines. PO'M being more direct.

lawrencesummers

KaneToad wrote: »

I think they may have run different lines. PO'M being more direct.

The line wasn’t the problem. The speed, or lack there of was the problem

AbusesToilets

Solutionking wrote: »

Carbery has to be discounted. Burns, Healy and H Byrne has to be options. Other players let them move on. No point bringing back in Madigan at this stage

There's always Jackson, if sanity ever reigns again

lawrencesummers

The wheels have come off.

VayNiice

It's tough for Ross Byrne. He's shown very little at international level but he's been unfortunate with the circumstances of his two biggest games being in Twickenham.

It's worth remembering that he's older than guys like Curry, Underhill, Dupont, Ntamack etc so it's hard to give him the excuse of being young. He's also played enough high profile leinster games (and played well) that I think it's fair to expect more from him.

TRANQUILLO

Absolutely smashed up. Delighted.You love to see it. Ireland are dreadful.

Mod: Dealt with, no need to report or quote.

theVersatile

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

Absolutely smashed up. Delighted.You love to see it. Ireland are dreadful.

Don't know which is more sad the thought of an English man going into an Irish boards forum to gloat or an Irishman glad to see is country lose.

lawrencesummers

VayNiice wrote: »

It's tough for Ross Byrne. He's shown very little at international level but he's been unfortunate with the circumstances of his two biggest games being in Twickenham.

It's worth remembering that he's older than guys like Curry, Underhill, Dupont, Ntamack etc so it's hard to give him the excuse of being young. He's also played enough high profile leinster games (and played well) that I think it's fair to expect more from him.

Byrne isn’t the biggest problem we have, he’s not looking like the next Sexton but he needs more time.

He’s inexperienced at this level and trying to fill the boots of the 10 that guided us through a golden time in Irish rugby.

degsie

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

Absolutely smashed up. Delighted.You love to see it. Ireland are dreadful.

Gerrourouadat and back to home base witcha.

lawrencesummers

landofthetree wrote: »

None of our players took the knee.

I can only imagine the reaction from the Irish media and public if it was their other way around or from our soccer team.

And that’s a wrap.

aloooof

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Yes there are various areas where a lineout can malfunction. However we knew before the game that Kelleher's ability to hit his targets past two is suspect. Consequently it was on Ryan to ensure that we called to the front and make life easy on our hooker and also give us a better chance to secure set piece ball. Our first lineout today was a throw between 4 and 6 and it went crooked. After that, considering what happened in France, it should have been obvious that the primary concern was to secure possession.

I think you’re massively over-simplifying things, tbh. You mention France; didn’t Ryan call it to 2 in the France game, we got driven straight into touch and he got criticised for that, also? I don’t think it’s as straightforward as you’re making out.

VayNiice

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Byrne isn’t the biggest problem we have, he’s not looking like the next Sexton but he needs more time.

He’s inexperienced at this level and trying to fill the boots of the 10 that guided us through a golden time in Irish rugby.

Nobody is expecting him to be the next sexton. What is expected is that he can impose himself on the game and put some structure on our game. He's standing way to deep when looking to move the ball and not kicking enough either.

Billy Burns had more of an impact in his short cameo off the bench.

Hes played enough big games for leinster that's its reasonable to expect him to at least stay afloat at test level.

awec

I thought Ryan was very poor today tbh and was lucky it was Roux subbed and not him.

Captains armband provided some protection from the hook.

ToddDameron

England were very impressive defensively against a team that played into their hands with unimaginative rugby. Their attacking opportunities largely came off of Ireland's silly errors. I'm not really getting the doom and gloom, don't gift them scores and maybe go for the posts a couple of times and there is really not much in it, considering we were awful in attack. I don't think I've ever expected to win in England, and they didn't score tries for fun, so not sure why the media is pointing to this as a massive failure. When we did get creative we scored.

awec

VayNiice wrote: »

Nobody is expecting him to be the next sexton. What is expected is that he can impose himself on the game and put some structure on our game. He's standing way to deep when looking to move the ball and not kicking enough either.

Billy Burns had more of an impact in his short cameo off the bench.

Hes played enough big games for leinster that's its reasonable to expect him to at least stay afloat at test level.

He gets a free ride at Leinster. Niall OConnor would look good in this leinster team.

Byrne staying on for 72 minutes was a farce. Unfortunately the reluctance to sub a underperforming 10 is a bad habit that Farrell appears to have picked up from his predecessor.

Burns coming on was such a low risk decision that should have been made far earlier.