England v Ireland Autumn Nations Cup | 21.11.20 KO 15:00 | RTE 1 Read Post #5

lawrencesummers

mfceiling wrote: »

Constructive?

You've hammered the lad at every opportunity. There's no constructive criticism with you towards Keenan. There's an agenda there and it's plain to see.

Naw, I’ve just objected to the poster that said he was flawless in his performance, but apparently some people have an agenda that doesn’t allow criticism of their favourite players.

sydthebeat

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

To be fair Jonny May destroyed him. For the first try May just jumped at the right time and Keenan didn't. It was a childish error in the nature of international rugby

First try was no where near Keenan fault.

He's jumping with the flight of the ball rather than into it, as may was. The player jumping towards the flight always had the upper hand. He was left in that position cos Lowe had ended up narrow.

Calling that a "childish error" is quite ignorant of the game

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

First try was no where near Keenan fault.

He's jumping with the flight of the ball rather than into it, as may was. The player jumping towards the flight always had the upper hand. He was left in that position cos Lowe had ended up narrow.

Calling that a "childish error" is quite ignorant of the game

Keenan didn't get his jump right though.

mis-timed it and tried to bring his body back towards the ball when he realised that he had got it wrong but was then off-balance and made it easy for May.

if he had timed his jump correctly he could have actually contested for it against May properly and stopped the try

he made a mistake

https://youtu.be/tCZeq2-g5f0?t=171

sydthebeat

Keenan jumping backwards
May jumping forwards

If you don't know the difference in difficulty of both those situations then I suggest you go out and practise them.
Take it from me, they are not the same

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

Keenan jumping backwards
May jumping forwards

If you don't know the difference in difficulty of both those situations then I suggest you go out and practise them.
Take it from me, they are not the same

the guy going forward has an advantage yes.

doesn't mean that Keenan didn't mis-time it, which he did.

if he chose a better angle he wouldn't have been jumping backwards also.

Ardillaun

Holy God, just watched Healy outpace Lowe for May's second try. Was Earls still covering Daly on the wing there when May passed by? Some sort of a desperate dive might have looked better.

pickarooney

glasso wrote: »

heard a comment on newstalk that almost an insulting approach to the second half by England. Just kick a couple of penos, put it out to 3 scores required for Ireland - just tackle them until the clock is against them - England didn't even need to push for more scores or worry about possession as they don't need to against Ireland.

Ireland's success in the last 10 to 15 years has always been based around having a solid 10 and a fairly rigid game plan - until that player is found, anointed and THEN developed with enough experience not looking good for being competitive in the 6N, never mind the WC.

Imagine if we changed the plan a little so as not to be completely dependent on having a world class 10?

Japan and Australia make do without one.

sydthebeat

glasso wrote: »

the guy going forward has an advantage yes.

doesn't mean that Keenan didn't mis-time it, which he did.

if he chose a better angle he wouldn't have been jumping backwards also.

Yeah, I guess if he could teleport across the pitch then he could choose what angle to catch the ball from. It's not like the ball kicker has any influence on that decision at all.

lawrencesummers

pickarooney wrote: »

Imagine if we changed the plan a little so as not to be completely dependent on having a world class 10?

Japan and Australia make do without one.

You would think by now we would have learned how to play without a world class 10 alright.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

Yeah, I guess if he could teleport across the pitch then he could choose what angle to catch the ball from. It's not like the ball kicker has any influence on that decision at all.

If you think that he made a good job of that jump you're deluded

sydthebeat

glasso wrote: »

If you think that he made a good job of that jump you're deluded

I said the try wasn't his fault, and picked up another poster on calling it a "childish error"

You seem intent on blaming him for it though, so off you go.....

First Up

glasso wrote:

If you think that he made a good job of that jump you're deluded

I think what was being explained to you is that the circumstances around the cross kick placed Keenan at a considerable disadvantage in jumping for it.

clsmooth

glasso wrote: »

If you think that he made a good job of that jump you're deluded

I’m surprised you’d don’t realise what being stuck between a rock and hard place looks like. But then I guess that helps explain your strange argument. What percentage chance would you give both May and Keenan of winning the ball once it left Farrell’s foot?

Nothwthstanding any advantage may had, keenan mistimed his jump by jumping too early.

He didn't judge the flight of the incoming ball correctly.

As a result the ball was behind him and it was easy for may.

Easy seen in this link

https://youtu.be/tCZeq2-g5f0?t=171

VANG1

Great players make mistakes , give the boys a break. They gave everything out there against one of the worlds best teams. We will be better with the experience. It’s very easy to criticise young players from your sofa. Have you ever played in Twickenham?

VANG1

VANG1 wrote: »

Great players make mistakes , give the boys a break. They gave everything out there against one of the worlds best teams. We will be better with the experience. It’s very easy to criticise young players from your sofa. Have you ever played in Twickenham?

the main point here was posters making out that it's all down to May's advantage - it's not.

Ireland were dominated in the end by a superior team - but the chances of competing with are less if the precision isn't on point.

the penalty leading to England's opportunity was another error beforehand that led to the cross-kick

then obviously a few minutes later the lineout mess led to May creating another chance.

clsmooth

In fairness, I can see glasso’s point but seems a bit much focussing on that moment. The damage was done before and I’m not sure i’d back too many players to reclaim that ball in that position (certainly none available to line up at 15 for us)

sydthebeat

we've seen countless great full backs being beating in the air with crossfield kicks like that.... i just find it very distasteful to call it a childish error and to apportion blame for the try onto keenan when the damage was done inside him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOhlT0LdeCA

crosskicks compilation defence - I've seen it all now

sydthebeat

glasso wrote: »

crosskicks compilation defence - I've seen it all now

yeah, imagine showing other successful crossfield kicks in a discussion about cross field kicks....

mind blowing !!!

clsmooth

glasso wrote: »

crosskicks compilation defence - I've seen it all now

Great! You should have a more informed opinion now

just to show your ridiculousness - youtube compilation battle

Great catches!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oLXY0mtvts

Former Former Former

Keenan should have done better. He put himself in a position where he either made a clean high catch or May walked in unopposed. He needed to arrive a half-second later and make it more of a contest. Winning the ball wasn't necessary, just stop them from getting it.

I wouldn't slaughter the guy for it but it's hard to see Kearney or even Larmour making that error.

First Up

glasso wrote:

Nothwthstanding any advantage may had, keenan mistimed his jump by jumping too early.

He didn't judge the flight of the incoming ball correctly.

Running back while tracking a ball coming over your shoulder can sometimes lead to mis-timed jumps, not least when competing with a world class winger moving at top speed.

You can tell us your solution when you are ready.

sydthebeat

glasso wrote: »

just to show your ridiculousness - youtube compilation battle

Great catches!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oLXY0mtvts

ah yes


LOADS of examples of the player running forward onto the ball flight winning the aerial battle

thanks for proving my point

This is how you do it

https://youtu.be/0oLXY0mtvts?t=96

aloooof

Glasso, do you at least agree that it wasn't a (checks notes) "childish error"?

First Up

First Up wrote: »

Running back while tracking a ball coming over your shoulder can sometimes lead to mis-timed jumps, not least when competing with a world class winger moving at top speed.

You can tell us your solution when you are ready.

so yes he mis-timed it.

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

Glasso, do you at least agree that it wasn't a (checks notes) "childish error"?

I never said that - different poster - check back

I wouldn't say something so silly.

It was an error though.

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

Glasso, do you at least agree that it wasn't a (checks notes) "childish error"?

to be fair to glasso, it wasnt he who called it a "childish error"

phog

I don't know how I feel, did the scoreline flatter us or did we deserve more from the game. We were a bit like Connacht last week we had scoring opportunities but just couldn't cross the line or dot the ball down but then we lost a few set pieces again this week which is disheartening. At times this game reminded me of watching the likes of Munster v Sarries or other powerful teams, we do enough to stay in the game but always needed a bit of luck to try pass them out. It was an awful game for Byrne to have to start but the ball died for us when he got it, they knew he was going to pass it out and were ready to get man and ball.

One grain of comfort was we had a few players we have with very few caps v a team that was almost full strength and that has to give us hope for the future.

First Up

glasso wrote:

so yes he mis-timed it.

Yes, under extenuating circumstances.

shootermacg

glasso wrote: »

so yes he mis-timed it.

I'd never blame Keenan for that try. I've seen pretty much every Irish FB and quite a few others getting caught by those.

aloooof

glasso wrote: »

I never said that - different poster - check back

I wouldn't say something so silly.

It was an error though.

sydthebeat wrote: »

to be fair to glasso, it wasnt he who called it a "childish error"

Yep, didn't mean to imply you did say it, just wanted to see how far apart the opinions were on it.

My own take is that, if it was an error, I think it's a comparatively minor one in the context of the rest of the day.

molloyjh

GIVE NEW GUYS A CHANCE!!!!!

LOOK AT THAT CHILDISH MISTAKE THE NEW GUY MADE!!!!!!!

Who'd want to be a pro rugby player, eh?

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

GIVE NEW GUYS A CHANCE!!!!!

LOOK AT THAT CHILDISH MISTAKE THE NEW GUY MADE!!!!!!!

Which want to be a pro rugby player, eh?

I agree, exactly right. The young lads just can't hack it anymore and Ireland need to bring back the old veterans like John Hayes.

I know that's what you meant so there's no need to reply.

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

Yep, didn't mean to imply you did say it, just wanted to see how far apart the opinions were on it.

My own take is that, if it was an error, I think it's a comparatively minor one in the context of the rest of the day.

yes I had mentioned the penalty given away beforehand that gave England the opportunity in the first place

anyway 2 mistakes and Ireland were two tries down in short order

not unlike earlier in the year in the last game with Sexton's juggler impersonation and Stockdale leaving the ball

mistakes due to England pressure but nonetheless you're not going to be at the races against a good team like that if you lack basic precision

Then England didn't even have to push - just play to their strengths and push it out to 3 scores needed for Ireland and run down the clock a bit and game over

a consolation try and not looking hammered on the scoreboard is scant consolation.

England never had to push for a big scoreboard - that's even worse imo

UAEguy2020

It also appears Rob Kearney has never made a mistake in his career...

First Up

glasso wrote:

just to show your ridiculousness - youtube compilation battle

Great catches!

Do you have any that were similar to what Keenan was dealing with?

glasso

glasso wrote: »

This is how you do it

https://youtu.be/0oLXY0mtvts?t=96

First Up wrote: »

Do you have any that were similar to what Keenan was dealing with?

see above - already posted - it was in the video that I originally linked from WC 15

similar enough to prove the point

First Up

glasso wrote:

similar enough to prove the point

All the catches in that clip were made by players running towards a dropping ball. Keenan wasn't.

First Up

First Up wrote: »

All the catches in that clip were made by players running towards a dropping ball. Keenan wasn't.

he mistimed his jump - this has been accepted - he jumped too early

with an oncoming player also going for the ball you don't plan to catch the ball behind you - that was a misjudgement of timing / flight of the ball

he needed to be in front of May and either

1. catch it

2. be in front of May to put him off / contest for ball so nobody catches it

3. if May catches it at least be in front of him to block him from cruising in for a try

it was a difficult situation no doubt but it wasn't dealt with in a way that made if difficult for May

I'd say at this point let's just accept that and move on

lawred2

alright time to unfollow

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

alright time to unfollow

you ledge-bag

Kraftwerk

Kraftwerk wrote: »

The reaction to the loss in the wider social media baffles me. That was a seasoned first string England team in Twickenham. While Ireland have a new head coach, new players/missing key starters, new captain, new style of play (or in the process of changing anyway). And Ireland still didn't get blown away despite not even having a lineout.

Its also a made up competition to fill the gap of the autumn Internationals. It's a development opportunity. And tbh it was a fantastic experience for everyone involved. If you criticise Bryne for not developing due to having an armchair ride at leinster then you have to allow for the fact that himself and everyone else got a hell of a lot of experience from that game. England put on a defensive masterclass with sharp counter attacking. You don't come up against that often or get the chance to use it as a development game.

I agree with all of that. We're 3 years out from a World Cup. Better to get these defeats now with a long term view of peaking in 2023. All our great years in Irish rugby have so often coincided with the middle of a world cup cycle. Let's experiment now, try young players, take a few lumps and learn from them.

I think we should already be planning without Sexton. There was so much talk of him retiring from international rugby in 2015/16 - seems mad to think he's still playing even now. He will not improve by the next world cup. The only way is down. Let's give some young players experience and let the best of them take over.

theVersatile

Keenan was literally running towards the ball as well? As in coming forward onto it? I'm so confused by this argument

First Up

GP wrote:

England are definitley a bit more "hardnosed" at the moment than Ireland were on the week-end and I don't think they will be pushed around that easily.

glasso wrote:

with an oncoming player also going for the ball you don't plan to catch the ball behind you - that was a misjudgement of timing / flight of the ball

What "planning" could he do? They were both running towards where the ball would drop. May had a better angle on it as it was in front of him. Keenan had it coming over his shoulder. Yes, he mis-timed his jump - for that reason.

First Up

First Up wrote: »

What "planning" could he do? They were both running towards where the ball would drop. May had a better angle on it as it was in front of him. Keenan had it coming over his shoulder. Yes, he mis-timed his jump - for that reason.

time it right and be in front of May, not past May and past the ball

isn't it obvious from video link that he got that wrong

he jumped too early. that's why it was behind him.

what is left to keep discussing this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCZeq2-g5f0&feature=youtu.be&t=171

aloooof

Dipping my toe back in here after largely avoiding the place over the weekend...

1. Thought POM and Earls our best performers, closely followed by Doris and Porter.
   
   Earls' height occasionally gets mentioned as being targeted for kicks, but he wins more than his fair share, and when he doesn't on our kick, he puts real pressure as soon as the defender catches and returns to ground.
   
   
2. Keenan was incredibly secure under the high ball (personally, wouldn't be too harsh on him for the try).
   
   I did think his kicking was quite poor tho, and he doesn't bring the same level of threat (both attacking and physically) that Stockdale does.
   
   
3. Lowe's kicking also, especially early on, was poor. Thankfully, our poor return kicking in general wasn't that much of an issue, given how much possession we had. Our kicking from half-back needed to be a lot better tho. (And on that note...)
   
   
4. Don't want to be too critical of Byrne; having your first 2 Test starts in Twickenham is as tough as it gets.
   
   It did seem like for the first 15-20 mins, he (and JGP) were trying a varied kicking game (albeit with average execution, largely due to the England pressure). But from there on out, he seemed to revert to playing too deep and releasing it far too early. He didn't really offer any running threat and telegraphed some of his passing pretty early.
   
   He did defend well (one brilliant shot on JJ who received a pass off the back of a maul) but if and when he gets another opportunity, he'll need to bring it flatter and release it later.
   
   
5. CJ atypically quiet. Amongst his poorest games I've ever seen him play, I would wager.
   
   
6. James Ryan as well wasn't quite at the pitch of what we've come to expect from him (and hasn't been of late). Part of me feels he was trying to do too much, trying to have a big influential moment that might shift the momentum, and that was as much a cause for his high penalty count as anything.
   
   
7. I hate criticising referee's and TMO's, but 2-3 pretty obvious high tackles around the neck were missed. That's pretty incongruous when the TMO specifically interjected for Roux's fairly innocuous (but correct) penalty.
   
   Having said that, they did ping 2 players for changing their line when escorting a kick back, which was becoming something of an annoyance.
   

GreeBo

I didnt think Englands defense was that monumental, we made it tackling practice for them but just running into them, we had no trickery or nous to make them think about anything other than blitz the ball carrier, a few grubbers, chips in behind or even some inside passes to change direction might have opened them up and forced them to hold back a bit, giving the entire backline some room and allowing the pack to have a ruck to run onto rather than "over" to.

Much rather see a poor performance because we have the next wave of players involved early, these games are largely irrelevant in the big scheme of things, now the 6 Nations is a different challenge...we have to have sorted out tactics by then or we will be undone by England, France and possibly Scotland.