If the world goes completely vegan

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What does that mean? There are initiatives in Scotland at the moment where they've fenced off areas from sheep, and native trees have flourished, which has led to an increase in wildlife.
Sheep love saplings so if you let them loose on hills nothing can grow there.

Do Gooders were advocating for what you are now. One or 2 dominant plants began smothering out much of our native flora. That wasn't the case when the sheep were there. That is why they had to put the sheep back up, to bring balance to the whole situation. Balance is very important!

The Scottish could learn alot from us, you know.

Thelonious Monk

Bigbooty wrote: »

Complete untrue. The total amount of soy meal consumed globally is about 250 million tonnes while soy oil is around 55 million tonnes. The cost per ton of soy Meal around 300-400 dollars a ton while soy oil is 700-800. 97% of all meal is used in animal agriculture. Soy meal is not a byproduct.

Also 97% of Brazilian soy is genetically modified, which is banned for human consumption in many countries and is rarely used to make tofu and soya milk in any case

https://www.isaaa.org/resources/publications/biotech_country_facts_and_trends/download/Facts%20and%20Trends%20-%20Brazil.pdf

Unearthly

Good to see the Soy thing cleared up with science. I had a feeling the stuff constantly posted that Soy is used more for humans than livestock was nonsese

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Also 97% of Brazilian soy is genetically modified, which is banned for human consumption in many countries and is rarely used to make tofu and soya milk in any case

https://www.isaaa.org/resources/publications/biotech_country_facts_and_trends/download/Facts%20and%20Trends%20-%20Brazil.pdf

So if it’s banned for human consumption then how does it work if it’s consumed by animals and then those animals are consumed by humans ?

Thelonious Monk

You can talk about vegans importing peppers from Spain but look at this, animal feed comes from places as far flung as Vietnam and Fiji

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/where-are-animal-feed-imports-coming-from/

Hardly seems sustainable.

Say my name

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well given that 55% of our fruit and veg comes from my neck of the woods in North Dublin, a small area, it kinda looks like beef and dairy is all we produce elsewhere.

And our strawberries from wexford and Spain. And tillage in the south and east.

Are you sure of that 55% figure.
Must be a lot less.
The number of veg growers decreased by half in the last twenty years due to consumers and the market.

Thelonious Monk

Say my name wrote: »

And our strawberries from wexford and Spain. And tillage in the south and east.

Are you sure of that 55% figure.
Must be a lot less.
The number of veg growers decreased by half in the last twenty years due to consumers and the market.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-20242443.html

Fingal county provides around 55% of the country’s fresh produce, which includes soft fruits and berries, apples, lettuces, peppers, asparagus, potatoes, onions, and carrots.

Gary kk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/coexistence-soybeans-factsheet.pdf



That's from the US Dept of Agriculture for e.g.

Yeah look when the hulls/ beans are pressed and we get 18 or 19 present oil then the leftover is sent for animal feed. That is commonly acknowledged. It's not in different fields or plants, rather it's the same hulls for both.

Thelonious Monk

I have nothing against farmers doing their thing to make money. I just think our planet is sick and the food system for us is ridiculously unsustainable. I'm sure we could all still have some meat, sometimes, but we can't keep destroying habitats to produce food, we could produce enough food for all of us using less land and give more back to nature, if we all just ate less meat.

Say my name

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-20242443.html

Any more recent accounts?

Thelonious Monk

Say my name wrote: »

Any more recent accounts?

Can't be bothered looking now, but still you can see that a tiny part of the country grows a huge percentage of the fruit and veg, and it shows how we need to diversify. I know a lot of the land isn't suitable but a lot of it is.

Gary kk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You can talk about vegans importing peppers from Spain but look at this, animal feed comes from places as far flung as Vietnam and Fiji

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/where-are-animal-feed-imports-coming-from/

Hardly seems sustainable.

If you read on down past the head line you will see where it says mainly from byproduct.

Oh this is a second source that says animal feed is mainly derived from byproducts. Go you well done.

Thelonious Monk

Gary kk wrote: »

Yeah look when the hulls/ beans are pressed and we get 18 or 19 present oil then the leftover is sent for animal feed. That is commonly acknowledged. It's not in different fields or plants, rather it's the same hulls for both.

Someone should contact the Dept of Ag in USA and let them know that they're spreading misinformation and that all their soy is actually primarily grown not for animal feed.

Gary kk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Someone should contact the Dept of Ag in USA and let them know that they're spreading misinformation and that all their soy is actually primarily grown not for animal feed.

Did they say it was grown mostly for animal feed or that most of went for animal feed. There is a difference I guess I most check after.

That's me for today. Slan.

Thelonious Monk

Gary kk wrote: »

Did they say it was grown mostly for animal feed or that most of went for animal feed. There is a difference I guess I most check after.

That's me for today. Slan.

It does say it's primarily for animals. Oiche mhaith.

Say my name

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I have nothing against farmers doing their thing to make money. I just think our planet is sick and the food system for us is ridiculously unsustainable. I'm sure we could all still have some meat, sometimes, but we can't keep destroying habitats to produce food, we could produce enough food for all of us using less land and give more back to nature, if we all just ate less meat.

But your producing meat from a sustainable plant that feeds microbes in the soil and sequesters carbon.
That meat means you've a denser bone mass and less likely to get strokes.
I've dung beetles on farm that feed badgers, foxes, herons, crows, raven, swallows, swifts. It all comes from the cow.

Covering farms in polythene tunnels is no answer either.
Blaming habitat loss purely on livestock is not correct. There's a whole ecosystem in Ireland dependent on livestock farming.

Your veg and tillage farms degrade soil more than any other.
Regenerative farming uses all the bases of farming. It's balance to go forward.

Markcheese

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Can't be bothered looking now, but still you can see that a tiny part of the country grows a huge percentage of the fruit and veg, and it shows how we need to diversify. I know a lot of the land isn't suitable but a lot of it is.

There used to be quite a couple of veg growing areas in cork , ( just 20 years ago ) ..
With the the exception of 2 or 3 growers there gone , it just didn't pay ..

El Tarangu

EastTyrone wrote: »

What do vegans think of the fact that drinking soya milk is destroying the rainforest?

Wrong.

White Clover wrote: »

Wrong again. The waste left over is fed to livestock once the oil has been extracted for humans.

This falsehood has been proffered 10 times so far on this thread with zero evidence, and in fact loads of evidence to the contrary suggesting that no, it isn't just convenient, left over soy fed to animals.

"Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production. "

http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf

El Tarangu

Say my name wrote: »

But your producing meat from a sustainable plant that feeds microbes in the soil and sequesters carbon.

- Methane
- Rainforest devastation to plant soy to feed to Irish cattle

Gary kk

El Tarangu wrote: »

Wrong.



This falsehood has been proffered 10 times so far on this thread with zero evidence, and in fact loads of evidence to the contrary suggesting that no, it isn't just convenient, left over soy fed to animals.

"Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production. "

http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf

Hey morning the agri farm link above those say that the majority of feed imported to ireland is a byproduct.

El Tarangu

EastTyrone wrote: »

And the fact that a large majority of vegetables eaten in the eu come from spain with its miles upon miles of plastic greenhouses destroying the local environment, taking up ground water and depleting natural groundwater sources?

Gas - are vegans the only people who like to nibble on a tomato? Do non-vegans restrict themselves to eating only chard and brussels sprouts in the winter? Vegans make up a tiny % of the population, do you think they are the ones eating the tonnes of Spanish peppers in the supermarket?

This post is completely irrelevant to any discussion on the merits or otherwise of the veganism - complete troll post.

El Tarangu

Gary kk wrote: »

Hey morning the agri farm link above those say that the majority of feed imported to ireland is a byproduct.

It says "mainly" (no %), and then follows that up with of course, this figure does "not account for straight products like barley or maize".

Not convinced.

Gary kk

El Tarangu wrote: »

It says "mainly" (no %), and then follows that up with of course, this figure does "not account for straight products like barley or maize".

Not convinced.

Look I am sure there are some companies that wont allow soy grown for a Vegan market be used as animal feed after but the majority just want the money which I guess is fair enough.

You don't have to be convinced but the facts are there if you want to find them.

Markcheese

Incidentaly ,I doubt many farmers in Ireland would agree with destruction of rain forest to produce soya ( or more likely beef in brazil,) or palm oil in indonesia ,
Some will purchase accordingly ,some won't think that far ..
An awful lot of the straight grains in the world used for animal feed tend to be for pigs and poultry , ( which we do produce here too ,) rather than sheep and cattle ( which are our big export ) ,
And I'm intrigued to know what animal feed we import from fiji ..

Bigbooty

Markcheese wrote: »

And I'm intrigued to know what animal feed we import from fiji ..

Meal from coconut husks most likely.

Faith

I'm noticing some quite respectful debate taking place on this thread recently (some, not all!) and I think it's great. Just wanted to feed that back, as I'm sure it seems like we only complain about bad behaviour. Trying to find some common ground, acknowledging the bits you agree with, trying to see the perspective of others - that's great to see. I can see the effort that some of you are putting in, and I wanted to acknowledge it.

El Tarangu

Jjameson wrote: »

I agree with your first point
That’s a fairly simplistic and hugely flawed analogy, . To fix food productions impact on the planet the first thing to look at is any link to oil gas coal.
Then food waste.
But economics dominate all logic.

This thread seems to be mainly farmers asking "vegans" why they haven't solved all the myriad problems of agri-business.

I'm intrigued to know what role importing cattle, finishing them on grass (and some degree of feed imported from Fiji or Vietnam, probably), killing them, and then exporting the carcasses to far-flung places, has to play in decoupling our food production from its reliance on fossil fuels.

Thelonious Monk

Faith wrote: »

I'm noticing some quite respectful debate taking place on this thread recently (some, not all!) and I think it's great. Just wanted to feed that back, as I'm sure it seems like we only complain about bad behaviour. Trying to find some common ground, acknowledging the bits you agree with, trying to see the perspective of others - that's great to see. I can see the effort that some of you are putting in, and I wanted to acknowledge it.

I only think this has been possible because a certain poster has been banned, otherwise forget about it

Tilikum17

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I only think this has been possible because a certain poster has been banned, otherwise forget about it

100%. Most of the farmers are grand on here

Faith

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I only think this has been possible because a certain poster has been banned, otherwise forget about it

Tilikum17 wrote: »

100%. Most of the farmers are grand on here

Whatever the reason may be, it would be great if it could continue in this vein. It shows there can be room for opposing viewpoints and debate if done respectfully and considerately.