Housing Department: New plan to end direct provision is unworkable

Citizen2011

Anybody that falls for that is a moron. There is no way in hell that Aramark served up a bread roll for xmas dinner. Set up.

PearseCork92

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I think the Irish are the last people to be pontificating about economic migrants tbh.

If they're economic migrants, let them apply for a visa at an Irish consulate instead of rolling up at Dublin Airport with cock n' bull stories.

I'm in favour of helping victims of war and political dissidents by the way. Funnily enough, people with the fiddle out for people with dubious stories and frustrating attempts to deport them harm the state's capacity to look after genuine cases.

Example: According to UNHCR data, there were 12 applications for protection/asylum from US citizens. Can anyone tell me why we're entertaining such applications?

smurgen

Kivaro wrote: »

This, to me, smacks of a Margaret Cash-type orchestrated picture. It tries to convey the Irish public as the Ebenezer Scrooge character in Dickens' 'A Christmas Carol"; especially with the XMas lunch reference in the Tweet.
How dystopian of us Irish .....

In the meantime, we continue to spend billions of euros on asylum seekers; the vast majority of whom are bogus, but they will continue to live for free in Ireland with all the welfare services imaginable until they obtain amnesty. Rest assured that even after we provide new asylum seekers with free housing after 3 months of arrival at Dublin airport, it will never be enough for the likes of Roderic O' Gorman. We will have to continue to give and give while others in Ireland are deprived; all for the sake of "progressive" values or the optics of being a diverse society; albeit a contrived and enforced diverse society.

Not at all. To be it shows the catering that we pay dearly for is sub standard. Just like the accommodation is sub standard. The joke is on the tax payer here.

enricoh

Citizen2011 wrote: »

Anybody that falls for that is a moron. There is no way in hell that Aramark served up a bread roll for xmas dinner. Set up.

Absolutely, stirring s#&t for suckers to get outraged over.
Cue more calls for funding and own door accommodation from those employed in this scam industry. They'll probably get it too!

GT89

smurgen wrote: »

Imagine we're paying Aramark about 6 million a year for this:

https://twitter.com/GrainneClose/status/1342822865276727297?s=19

I'm sure the homeless Irish living on the street would be delighted with that

_Kaiser_

PearseCork92 wrote: »

Let it all play out and hammer anyone who defends this at the ballot box. If we could have confidence that people receiving their own door accommodation were genuine cases, Irish people have a heart.

However, from what we know of the entire asylum-seeking system, it's all a big fat joke. The population will soon get sick of Chilean people 'afraid of earthquakes' or fake LGBT people from South Africa being handed the keys to a new build.

Charity begins at home. We have a big enough housing list, homelessness, and workers struggling to pay rent or buy somewhere as it is.

By the time we get to the ballot box and this has become a big enough electoral issue, the damage will already have been done as we're seeing in certain parts of Dublin and elsewhere now.

New arrivals should be held in a location near the airport/ports and given one application, one appeal if denied (both to be heard within a fortnight) and then back to where they came from if still unsuccessful. That's where our resources should be going and the fastest and fairest way to ensure the genuine few are identified and given (temporary) aid.

suicide_circus

GT89 wrote: »

I'm sure the homeless Irish living on the street would be delighted with that

I doubt they would be but i've become somewhat cynical of that kind of staged photo. It's like Ms Cash except with a crap sandwich instead of 8 kids in a garda station.

Bubbaclaus

suicide_circus wrote: »

I doubt they would be but i've become somewhat cynical of that kind of staged photo. It's like Ms Cash except with a crap sandwich instead of 8 kids in a garda station.

In their school uniforms in the middle of Summer

OneEightSeven

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I think the Irish are the last people to be pontificating about economic migrants tbh.

Irish people who migrated to other countries are the last people to pontificate about economic migration. The ones who remained here can pontificate as much as they please.

I'm not going to vote for any party who supports giving rent allowance schemes or social housing to immigrants or bogus asylum seekers and no false equivalence about Irish people migrating is going to change my mind.

goose2005

smurgen wrote: »

Imagine we're paying Aramark about 6 million a year for this:

https://twitter.com/GrainneClose/status/1342822865276727297?s=19

also, this is lunch, not dinner. And most are not Christian, so serving an elaborate meal on December 25 could be perceived as a micro-aggression

Bonniedog

As above, the way to solve Direct Provision is quick decisions at port of entry. Genuine cases - based on country of origin - can then be catered for. the rest sent packing.

Very few genuine asylum seekers get here. After all the talk about Syrians, only a very small number have arrived in Ireland. lots of bogus Syrians of course. Some who would know more about the Holloway High Road than the road to Damascus.

The fact that there are people allowed stay here claiming to be political refugees from the US is absurd. But so too is claiming to be a political refugee from South Africa or Nigeria or any European country.

Topgear on Dave

Bonniedog wrote: »

The fact that there are people allowed stay here claiming to be political refugees from the US is absurd.

Ah cmon now, for real?

Eric Cartman

Its just more magic money tree logic

They should get good food, but they should also get own door accommodation, but we should allow them-to stay and never deport them and allow more in.

Honestly how are we going to pay for any of this , have millions in their own apartments with gourmet cooked lunch delivery.

Utter lunacy

Kivaro

When Roderic O' Gorman pushes out this new plan in 2021, it will be obvious that it will cause competition for housing. The Department of Housing was already chastised for releasing their report on how the asylum "own door" plan would cause Irish people to become homeless, which is an abhorrent situation that we find ourselves in.

Regarding competition; it would be reasonable to presume that Africans and other non-EU groups currently in London (for example), upon hearing about this free "own door" housing opportunity in Ireland, could decide to seek asylum in Ireland by simply flying into Dublin. On the other side of the coin, let's envision a young person in Ireland who becomes unemployed due to the Worldwide Pandemic and now finds himself/herself seeking assistance for housing due to circumstances beyond his/her control.

Even though we are one of most per-capita indebted countries on the planet, money will not be an issue i.e. HAP is readily available for the local needs and the asylum HAP will be made available for those arriving in Ireland seeking asylum. So the only issue will be the availability of suitable housing. With the backing of the Children's Minister Roderic O' Gorman, the multitude of asylum/migrant NGOs, RTE & the Irish Times etc., and with the possibility of racism accusations for making the wrong decision, who do you think will get the limited housing currently available in certain local authority areas?
Now multiply this by many thousands per year seeking asylum versus Irish people looking for housing. This is why the Department of Housing stated that homelessness of Irish people will be one consequence of this new asylum plan.

Doesn't seem fair, does it?

Wibbs

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I think the Irish are the last people to be pontificating about economic migrants tbh.

The same worn out threadbare "argument" that keeps being peddled as if Irish emigration is a mirror of the current form. Only it isn't and for a few reasons and I'll explain why because this silly argument seems to have legs:

1) In the vast majority of cases Irish immigrants were going to ex colonies of Europe founded upon and utterly reliant upon immigration. When those nations reached a population level that didn't require immigration in such numbers their criteria became significantly more limited and numbers let through dropped off a cliff. Getting into America in the 1890's was mostly a case of having the fare to get there, getting into American today? Well have a go and see.

2) The Irish and other immigrant groups going to such places had no social safety net, no social welfare, no social housing. It was sink, swim or charity. And a fair amount of exploitation.

3) European nations today are very different societies that have quite different needs. Cheap low education labour is a contracting market. We are not colonies that required masses of non native people. Ireland in particular has the highest birth rate in the EU so doesn't fit into that usual oh "we need more babies" stuff, though that is still peddled here. Well it's the same multicultural script everywhere, no sense in changing it.

As an aside multiculturalism as a politic as well as being steeped in the oppressed/oppressor narrative, is also a politic of those ex European New World colonies because they had to deal with it by virtue of their very design. Or it's a politic of European nations who were colonisers where many of the colonised have come home to roost. Ireland doesn't fit into either category and shouldn't have to import the decades of ongoing daftness like them. We've only had a taste of it for 20 years and we're experiencing it already.

irishproduce

I reckon there will be protests if this nonsense proposal is brought I to the dail in the form of a bill.
Would you blame the ordinary common sense person for calling a halt to this virtuous messing.
It would be one thing if it could be reversed in the future once it's agreed it was a dangerous mistake, but you can't reverse this stuff. You are stuck with the mess long after the accidental minister is gone.

conorhal

There's a logical consequence of this policy that nobody is talking about.

I assume that along with an own door residence, asylum seekers will require full access to HAP, the dole and all the other entitlements of social welfare. Otherwise how are they supposed to support themselves outside of direct provision where everything from food to heating is supplied, all inclusive?

The implication of this policy is that within 3 months of rocking up and making an asylum claim you have a house, the dole and full access to all welfare payments, something the government would refuse its own citizens. And then, because the government has refused to reform of the system to expedite cases, scammers can then spend a decade milking that situation. No wonder the government have been buying properties to beat the band.
This is an utterly bonkers policy that doesn’t bear even a passing resemblance to reality. To implement it you would have to stop housing Irish citizens completely while incentivising massive numbers of claimants to come directly here to avail of the single most generous asylum system in the world.

Will people wake up to this or will we just accept it? I really don’t know.

PearseCork92

conorhal wrote: »

There's a logical consequence of this policy that nobody is talking about.

I assume that along with an own door residence, asylum seekers will require full access to HAP, the dole and all the other entitlements of social welfare. Otherwise how are they supposed to support themselves outside of direct provision where everything from food to heating is supplied, all inclusive?

The implication of this policy is that within 3 months of rocking up and making an asylum claim you have a house, the dole and full access to all welfare payments, something the government would refuse its own citizens. And then, because the government has refused to reform of the system to expedite cases, scammers can then spend a decade milking that situation. No wonder the government have been buying properties to beat the band.
This is an utterly bonkers policy that doesn’t bear even a passing resemblance to reality. To implement it you would have to stop housing Irish citizens completely while incentivising massive numbers of claimants to come directly here to avail of the single most generous asylum system in the world.

Will people wake up to this or will we just accept it? I really don’t know.

It's completely insane I agree.

Combine Roderic's house Africa scheme with Helen McEntee's free Irish passport with your Ryanair flight to Ireland from Charleroi / Luton Airport initiative, and the next decade is going to be full of painful lessons with immigration.

It's entirely foreseeable and no-one is shouting stop. Boggles the mind.

Todays Times says that the delay in the white paper about DP coming out is due to negotiations with the Dept of Housing.

I'm really curious if they do go ahead with what the Day report was suggesting about an amnesty for all current residents and own door after 3 months what the local councils will do? Will asylum seekers be forced on them or will they be able to say they don't have the capacity? It seems like a disaster waiting to happen


"It is understood negotiations with the Department of Housing is responsible for the delay. The department said in November that own-door accommodation plans laid out in the expert group report, led by Dr Catherine Day, were “not workable” and threatened the State’s ability to house homeless people."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/give-asylum-seekers-id-to-open-bank-accounts-1.4449801

Kivaro

Unfortunately, Irish people will come second in this one.
The Housing Department has come under tremendous pressure after issuing their report on this unworkable replacement to direct provision. One must presume that the Children's Minister has plied substantial pressure on them to play ball with his plans to house mostly migrant men, which will undoubtedly result in Irish children becoming homeless. Roderic O' Gorman will make sure though, or at least will make an attempt to try and change the optics of this intolerable situation.

Fair play to the Housing Department for speaking the truth. Housing agencies in Dublin did similarly a number of years ago when the asylum reunification programme stretched their resources to a breaking point. This programme more than likely resulted in Irish homeless also.

O' Gorman has proclaimed that asylum seekers will get their own housing after arriving on our shores, and this will begin this year no matter the consequences. He repeatedly says that he wants to take the "meanness" out of the Direct Provision system. Wonder what he will say to the Irish people who will end up homeless as a result of his stance?
One could only lament on how the politicians in Ireland have let down its people in such a manner.

Sweet.Science

I see people on Twitter comparing DP to the Mother & baby homes . Saying in 30 yrs time we will be looked at the same for allowing this etc

Can someone fill me on how they are similar . Seems worlds apart to me ?

Buckfast W

Sweet.Science wrote:

I see people on Twitter comparing DP to the Mother & baby homes . Saying in 30 yrs time we will be looked at the same for allowing this etc

Sweet.Science wrote:

Can someone fill me on how they are similar . Seems worlds apart to me ?

It's like comparing apples and oranges they aren't in anyway similar. In fact the truth is that people in DP have far more access to supports than a citizen of this country. In places like Mosney residents are living there for free and also working . So they have free accommodation, food, heating, electricity, childcare and laundry services, not to mention a hair salon and activity areas for the childre. Not bad if you ask me, I wouldn't mind being in that situation.

The people who shout loudest about DP are people who are in the system years because their application in bogus and they just keep appealing or people who have absolutely no idea what DP really is and what's provided to the applicant's.

If there was ever a story in the papers detailing what services are provided to residents in DP there would be a massive up roar from the general public. Also applicants who come in with medical needs for illnesses such as cancer treatment etc....are not left years on a waiting list they're seen to and treated much quicker than the general population.

TheValeyard

We need to have strong immigration policies but I also feel Direct Provision isnt the solution either. It's unfair on applicants.

doublejobbing 2

Sweet.Science wrote: »

I see people on Twitter comparing DP to the Mother & baby homes . Saying in 30 yrs time we will be looked at the same for allowing this etc

Can someone fill me on how they are similar . Seems worlds apart to me ?

Let's see.

M&B Homes:

- involuntarily committed and detained. The mother would, to my knowledge, be transferred to a Magdalene Laundry later on

- in receipt of very basic food and very basic clothing only. Porridge, little to no meat

- often cajoled into giving up parental legal rights to their child, who were then adopted, even sold to the highest bidder

- media blackout on reporting on conditions at the time

- children educated, to my knowledge, on campus

- detainees forced to work on campus, maintaing the facility, contracted to local business washing clothes etc

- little to no career training for their eventual release

- no unmonitored communications with the outside world

DP Centres:

- populated mostly by people from safe countries who voluntarily entered Ireland. Conditions of residence in the centre are available via the Citizens Information website, allowing those who don't like the sound of it to go to Sweden or somewhere more generous. Residents are allowed to spend up to three nights per week away from the centre without losing their allocated place

-in receipt of at least three meals per day. Dietary requirements such as vegetarian and halal accommodated for. Eligible to apply for CWO Officer clothing allowance to my knowledge. Are also in receipt of a basic welfare allowance of, I believe, 45 euro t thereabouts.

- not only retain parental rights, but also receive full children's allowance, despite virtually all childcare needs and family needs in general (bills, clothes, food, education) being taken care of by the state

-are free to talk to the media. Media frequently publish exaggerated/ or/ and grossly inaccurate depictions of poor conditions in the centres, with zero challenge.

- children educated in the schools in the wider community

- residents are in no way expected to work on site or in the community.

- residents are given access to education, training programmes, even given free laptops for their "studies"

- plenty of unfettered communication access, if their moaning on Twitter about the food is anything to go by. At least three asylum seekers seem to have become campaigners with a public profile while resident in the DP system. One even ran for a local council seat. A set of circumstances simply unthinkable for a young woman in a M&B Home in the 50's.


Comparing a direct provision centre to a laundry/ M&B Home is the equivalent of comparing Auschwitz to Loughan House open prison.

It is an obscene comparison to make.

Ronaldinho

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

Comparing a direct provision centre to a laundry/ M&B Home is the equivalent of comparing Auschwitz to Loughan House open prison.

It is an obscene comparison to make.

You're missing what they were saying that in 30yrs time it will be regarded, in hindsight, with disdain equal to what we're currently seeing with the M&B scandal.

It's a speculative prediction. I could definitely see it. A lot will change in society over the next 30yrs.

Kivaro

We all need to remember, after reading the Dept. of Housing report about asylum seekers in Direct Provision, that after they exhaust all their appeals and since deportation does not really occur, asylum seekers just stay and live in Direct Provision for as long as they want .......... for free.
So when Roderic O' Gorman provides them with their own free houses/apartments within 3 months of arriving at the airport, they will also be able to remain in these free homes for as long as they want, even after their asylum application is rejected after a multitude of legal appeals.

We will need to spend billions more of our tax money in order to have the housing stock ready for those who fly into Dublin and claim asylum. Asylum NGOs in Ireland have already stated in their most recent report that they want up to 5,000 per year coming to Ireland for asylum purposes, and they want these numbers to occur indefinitely i.e. continuously year after year. One could presume that this is one of the reasons why social housing is regarded as an essential service during this current lockdown versus houses for working families/couples, which is not deemed essential.

It looks like the people of Ireland will have to work longer and harder in order to pay for these new free asylum homes. Doesn't seem right, does it.

doublejobbing 2

Ronaldinho wrote: »

You're missing what they were saying that in 30yrs time it will be regarded, in hindsight, with disdain equal to what we're currently seeing with the M&B scandal.

It's a speculative prediction. I could definitely see it. A lot will change in society over the next 30yrs.

By who though?

Ask the average Irishman on the street, he would say too many people in DP seem to have a neck like a jockey's bollix. Most Irish people are fully aware that if you went to the US or Australian authorities demanding the mad shiet they come out with you would be laughed to the deportation centre.

30 years from now sympathy will be even less, particularly if they follow through with this bonkers idea of just giving them free flats/ houses within a few weeks.

I was interested to see if Ireland had made any statement on where they stand regarding the pact on migration that the European Commission has proposed and to my surprise (as I don't recall reading about it in any of the papers/news sites) there was a briefing on it in December from the Commission. It makes for interesting reading https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_european_union_affairs/2020-12-02/3/

Kivaro

One would have to wonder if the Housing Department's report on the Direct Provision replacement plan was totally ignored by Government? From the report:

‘untenable’ own-door proposal would drive up rents and lead to legal challenges.

The department also stated that this new plan would result in greater levels of homelessness in Ireland and would exasperate rental inflation.
This morning it sounded like the government were swayed by objections to Direct Provision from Irish asylum NGOs. The highly paid CEOs and staff of these NGOs will only benefit from vastly increased numbers of asylum seekers coming to Ireland, so maybe their views are subjective.

We need to look at the reasons why countries like Denmark want to stop all asylum seekers coming to their shores. Providing asylum seekers with their own free homes within 4 months will only open the floodgates, irrespective of what the NGOs and government will try to play down. It will be easy for them to say that they could not have foreseen the consequences of such a drastic plan when it directly affects our children and grandchildren in the years to come.

WrenBoy

When does it become acceptable for Irish people to argue in their own favour ?
To argue against this publicly would see you ostracised as a far right racist fanatic and so it will pass without much fuss.
After having it for only a 100 years we're looking to give Ireland away. sad.